The A-League Expansion Thread

[Premy]

So it's lookin like a matter of where not if.

Thoughts, suggestions, ideas?

[Premy]

Rumored new T.V deal to start from 2016 worth $80 million per year for 4 year's with 12 Clubs.

http://m.couriermail.com.au/sport/football/new-tv-deal-could-underpin-expansion-to-12-team-a-league-by-2017/story-fnii0fc3-1227155286888?from=public_rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=cmailsport_football

[Jeterpool]

It's a good question and there's going to be plenty of debate.

Will Canberra and Wollongong come back in and do they have the market for sustaining a team? Geelong will no doubt come back in and there will be a case for another Brisbane team or North Queensland to return. There's plenty of candidates.

For me:

Another NZ team to push the competition over there and get a local derby. Probably try Auckland again?

Canberra.

[belchardo]

well that article basically says it will be a second Brisbane team and a third Sydney team.

I don't have a problem with those regions, but I do think that regional areas shouldn't be overlooked.

[belchardo]

Canberra.

would love this but can't see it happening. Brumbies just lost $1m this season, don't have a sponsor. Raiders not sure about but assume they are in a similar financial position.

basically, all the issues Newcastle experiences would be replicated here.

and they couldn't host any games during the summer holidays, as there is nobody here. last person out on Christmas eve has to remember to switch the street lights off.

[hawk]

not that we were in too much danger but it probably means we will be around for a while yet.

[Premy]

More on a 2nd Brisbane side.

http://mobile.news.com.au/sport/football/david-gallop-hints-brisbane-derby-on-cards-in-a-league-expansion-shake-up/story-fndkzvnd-1227155170661

[Jeterpool]

would love this but can't see it happening. Brumbies just lost $1m this season, don't have a sponsor. Raiders not sure about but assume they are in a similar financial position.

basically, all the issues Newcastle experiences would be replicated here.

and they couldn't host any games during the summer holidays, as there is nobody here. last person out on Christmas eve has to remember to switch the street lights off.

There you go. Good to get a point of view from the region. I wasn't aware about the loss the brumbies experienced.

I really wonder if Brisbane could host a second team. I'm not sure they could.

Southern Sydney franchise, I assume? Maybe....I recall there's been a recent article about expansion ideas from the Cronulla Sharks.

[MFKS]

It will defo be either a 3rd Sydney team a 3rd Melburn team or a 2nd Brisbane team.

End of discussion.

They are the only area with a population base capable of sustaining another team short term/long term.

The FFA still have to get round to fixing the issues at Newy and Gypos for PERMANENT before worrying again about the likes of Nth Qld GC who have already failed or areas like ACT and Wollongong who are likely to be just a similar basket case as the 2 current regional sides are and Fury/GC were

Adelaide and Perth are no hope for a 2nd team anytime soon

[q-money]

largz misses out again

[idontwannaplaywithhowey]

It will defo be either a 3rd Sydney team a 3rd Melburn team or a 2nd Brisbane team.

End of discussion.

They are the only area with a population base capable of sustaining another team short term/long term.

The FFA still have to get round to fixing the issues at Newy and Gypos for PERMANENT before worrying again about the likes of Nth Qld GC who have already failed or areas like ACT and Wollongong who are likely to be just a similar basket case as the 2 current regional sides are and Fury/GC were

Adelaide and Perth are no hope for a 2nd team anytime soon

I reckon you are probably right. Obviously in Sydney it would be a Sutherland area team.
In Melbourne you would have to think maybe Geelong? I don't know the geographical make up of the city that well, but there isn't really another option is there?You would have to think a 2nd Brisbane team is a long shot too. Again, I don't know the geography of it that well, does anyone with some knowledge in that area think a second Brissy team is viable?

[q-money]

sutherland is a waste of time and money

better off shoring up us and the gypos and forgetting any of these trash ass ideas

[MFKS]

I reckon you are probably right. Obviously in Sydney it would be a Sutherland area team.
In Melbourne you would have to think maybe Geelong? I don't know the geographical make up of the city that well, but there isn't really another option is there?You would have to think a 2nd Brisbane team is a long shot too. Again, I don't know the geography of it that well, does anyone with some knowledge in that area think a second Brissy team is viable?

Personally I don't think it is that viable at present in Brisvegas either.

Look at the crowds support they currently get for the Roar and lets be honest they probably will not see a period of success dominance as they have had in the HAL in the last 4 years. Not exactly captivating enough to make you think about starting a rival team.

Population wise they have the opportunity but the magic question how to get it to happen is up to bean counters smarter than me

Melburn is a big enough city to support another team just a question of where and they need to do so after Heart are actually established. Geelong maybe involved but lets remember it is also a regional area like Newy.

Sydney well you could go either Nth Shore/Southern end/ Campbelltown way the options are there. Either way you are gonna cut into area Wanderers/Smurfs think is theirs

[Premy]

Melbourne has to be the Dandenong area, large enough population and the demographics of the area is similar to that of Western Sydney.

Brisbane has 2 options I feel, Brisbane Strikers come back into the fold or you go to the Western Corridor Ipswich/Logan area (but then the available stadia comes into question)

Sydney if you go to the Sutherland area you're cutting FC territor, if you go to Campbelltown you're cutting in to WSW area.

[Premy]

Basically Expansion is necessary.

More teams more content
More content more money
More money better stability

If the rumored $80 million per year is true then that money needs to go to the clubs without the PFA pillaging it for the player. Clubs need to making money from the T.V rights not just the players.

Lets talk hypothetically for a second.
T.V rights worth 80m
Salary Cap raised to 3m (players get a pay rise still)
FFA divy out 5m per club.
5m x 12 Clubs = 60m (players salary is covered and clubs have 2m of revenue for elsewhere)
FFA are left with 20m, 5m per year better of then they are now.

A system like this would mean clubs like us and any other future "regional clubs" would be sustainable.

[Jetmaster]

Brisbane couldn't support a second NRL team let alone an A-League team.

[MFKS]

Brisbane couldn't support a second NRL team let alone an A-League team.


Brisbane can support a second NRL team FACT

They just don't want one and go out of their way to make sure they protect the Broncos at all costs FACT

[Superdylan]

No point in adding a new Brisbane side until they get a new stadium. Will not work if it's in the city like the Brisbane roar. Talks of an nrl team in west Brisbane aswell so a team could work but yeah I'd have the stadium at 20,000 capacity with foundations to expand to 30,000 or so. Western Brisbane pride?

Not sure about adding a team in cronulla, I thought it was Sydney fc territory? I've been the for knights games before its a decent ground but it deffinately would need abit of an upgrade. They are getting a huge redevelopment in the area plus there is a leagues club next door so there is somewhat of an entertainment prescient around the area. Southern shire fc?

What will that mean with the draw though, will we still have 27 games of will games increase to 33?

[hausmann]

Why can't the expansion come from existing Premier League clubs? Choose two that are organically successful.

[boz-monaut]

this again?

clearly what is needed are teams from Darwin, Tasmania, Wollongong, Canberra, Maitland/Cessnock, Geelong, Coffs Harbour and Napier

Christmas Island should also consider a team as Sheeds is spot on about immigration

a second and third division is also essential oif we're to compete with Asian leagues

[MFKS]

Why can't the expansion come from existing Premier League clubs? Choose two that are organically successful.
umm You not aware of FFA's no ethnics policy??

It may not be in writing but it is in writing

[lquiquer]

Question for Mr Grimario: Do you think Adelaide can support 2 teams in the A-League? United and city 10000ish average crowd each?

[Grimario]

No.

[boz-monaut]

shit, I forgot to mention South Melbourne - they should be in it too

[q-money]

largz is the only hope for australian football

[hawk]

Not sure about adding a team in cronulla, I thought it was Sydney fc territory? I've been the for knights games before its a decent ground but it deffinately would need abit of an upgrade. They are getting a huge redevelopment in the area plus there is a leagues club next door so there is somewhat of an entertainment prescient around the area. Southern shire fc?
?

Shire Fc is brilliant, how bout those derbies.


Why can't the expansion come from existing Premier League clubs? Choose two that are organically successful.

bonnyrigg white eagles, Dingley City Soccer Club

[Jetmaster]

Brisbane can support a second NRL team FACT

They just don't want one and go out of their way to make sure they protect the Broncos at all costs FACT

Obviously don't remember the failure of the South Queensland Crushers?

That's a FACT.

[Nou Camp]

1 Sydney New South Wales 4,667,283 20.91%
2 Melbourne Victoria 4,246,345 19.02%
3 Brisbane Queensland 2,189,878 9.81%
4 Perth Western Australia 1,897,548 8.50%
5 Adelaide South Australia 1,277,174 5.72%
6 Gold Coast-Tweed Heads Queensland/New South Wales 590,889 2.65%
7 Newcastle-Maitland New South Wales 418,958 1.88%
8 Canberra-Queanbeyan Australian Capital Territory/New South Wales 411,609 1.84%
* Australian Capital Territory Australian Capital Territorya 374,658 1.68%
9 Sunshine Coast Queensland 285,169 1.28%
10 Wollongong New South Wales 282,099 1.26%
11 Hobart Tasmania 216,959 0.97%
12 Geelong Victoria 179,042 0.80%
13 Townsville Queensland 171,971 0.77%
14 Cairns Queensland 142,528 0.64%
15 Darwin Northern Territory 131,678 0.59%
16 Toowoomba Queensland 110,472 0.49%

not convinced a southern syd team would work, Sydney fc already has a lot of supporters from that area
for whatever reason gold coast seems to struggle hosting any professional sporting team
Canberra may work better than other options
overall how are a league club finances? apart from the jets I haven't heard anything about other clubs sustainability

[belchardo]

A third Sydney A-League team may replace Wellington Phoenix Dominic Bossi
Published: October 21, 2015 - 8:45PM
A third Sydney team, based in the Sutherland Shire, could be introduced as early as next year with Wellington Phoenix's future in the A-League up in the air.
As Sydney prepares for the first of three derbies this season, no fewer than nine derbies could light up the football calendar in future years with a team based in the Sutherland Shire looming as a likely to take over Wellington Phoenix's A-League licence.
The New Zealand club's licence expires at the end of the season and while no decision on their future has been made yet by the FFA, the groundwork for finding a replacement is well under way.
Several meetings to establish a new A-League club have taken place in recent weeks between the top brass at FFA, Sutherland Shire Council, NRL club Cronulla and the Sutherland Shire Football Association, the largest football association in NSW and potentially Australia.
The FFA has ruled out expansion to a 12-team competition and confirmed any new team entering the competition would be at the expense of an existing club.
"There are no plans for expansion of the Hyundai A-League in the foreseeable future," head of the A-League Damien de Bohun said. "The strategy is all about sustainability of the national competition and stability of the current 10 clubs. It's a sign of the A-League's growing popularity that several regions around Australia are lobbying for a club in their markets, but that doesn't change our view that 10 is the right number of clubs."
Fairfax Media understands the governing body is looking at cutting all ties with New Zealand football, which offers little for Australian player development, broadcast revenue and A-League attendances. The Phoenix could be dumped as early as the end of this season, though no decision on an extension of their licence or a replacement bid has been made.
The FFA is already in negotiations with Fox Sports and major networks Nine, Ten and Seven over the next TV deal and an additional six derby games in Sydney would be an ideal drawcard for broadcasters in favour of ditching a New Zealand team.
The Sutherland Shire is not the only market the FFA is actively researching for a potential new club with a second team in Brisbane and a third in Melbourne also strongly considered.
An A-League bid from the south of Sydney – potentially also drawing from support in Wollongong – already has the full support of the local council. Sutherland Mayor Carmelo Pesce and councillor Kent Johns held talks with the FFA and would like a team based out of the region to enter "as soon as possible." Remondis Stadium in Woolooware – home of the Cronulla Sharks – is the council's preferred location for a team, rather than Jubilee Oval in Carlton.
"I believe the community of Sutherland Shire would be fully supportive of it and you would have my 100 per cent backing," Mayor Pesce said. "In our local soccer, we have more local players than anywhere in the state and maybe even Australia."
Shark Park is privately owned by the NRL club, which has joined the campaign for the region to be granted an A-League licence in order to accommodate another professional football club at the venue.
The NRL side has not discussed ownership of a potential A-League club with the FFA to establish a cross-code operation.
This story was found at: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/soccer/sydney-fc/a-third-sydney-aleague-team-may-replace-wellington-phoenix-20151021-gkf17t.html



so no expansion, but they'll replace teams to get a better pay deal. bad luck bro's.

[Thomas477]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out Nux.

[furns]

Stupid decision imo
But it's all paper talk atm

[hawk]

Having to lean on a nrl club for an aleague team is abhorrent. Wake up ffa scumbags

[The Postman]

Wasn't there a thing a couple years back about needing more teams to satisfy the AFC requirements? Dropping NZ was also a part of this.

I also saw another story yesterday that said 2 teams possibly coming in for the 17/18 season.

Still very early days though, whatever route they choose with the new teams, they need to take a page out of the AFL's playbook and start with a NYL team first.

[boz-monaut]

a second Newcastle/Hunter team is definitely the answer

away trip to Maitland would be better than the coast

[MFKS]

a second Newcastle/Hunter team is definitely the answer

away trip to Maitland would be better than the coast

We don't even have one decent club and you are thinking about a second

***

[hawk]

We don't even have one decent club and you are thinking about a second

***

Oi, we are the best, didnt you know? norfstars 4eva

[boz-monaut]

Metford Boyz would make the RBB look like they had never touched meth

[RAM]

expansion talk is ****ing crazy

[Grimario]

Nah. Move to 20 team comp. Play each other twice, top 12 finals. Amazing scenes.

[RAM]

Nah. Move to 20 team comp. Play each other twice, top 12 finals. Amazing scenes.

In an ideal world.

Reality is that until the TV money flows better the HAL is not financially viable unless you're talking MV or maybe SFC/WSW. The rest of the clubs run at a perpetual loss/ merry-go-round of owners going broke (BR, CCM, PG, AU, NJ, WP,MH) and any newcomers die in the arse (NQF, GCU).

A 3rd team for Sydney based out of the shire is madness, and would further dent an already financially precarious SFC. Likewise its madness to insert a 3rd team in Melbourne when the Heart effectively went under and are only surviving on oil money.

Canberra is seriously questionable, given that the Brumbies are broke and the Raiders are often the same. Tassie would be a failure, with a small ALF obsessed population that isn't centralised in any meaningful way.

Darwin and Geelong are laughable. A second team for Brisbane or Adelaide is unthinkable without greater TV money IMO.

[GazFish35]

3rd Sydney team has been a concept since Schwabb wrote his manifesto on a beer napkin when the nsl was dying.

3 Sydney
2 Melbourne
Perf
Adelaide
Newy
brisvegas
1 more regional

It's been the plan for over a decade.

[hawk]

3rd syd would mean another aids, ffs but seems most likely.

Who would be the next best to succeed eg crowd min 8000 ave and finances... tassie, Wollongong, Canberra (cosmos bahahaha), nnsw....

[MFKS]

3rd syd would mean another aids, ffs but seems most likely.

Who would be the next best to succeed eg crowd min 8000 ave and finances... tassie, Wollongong, Canberra (cosmos bahahaha), nnsw....

It's a goer.

Instead of 3 derbies a season it becomes 9

Much easier to hock to media when they can have 9 big crowds a year like they did Saturday night

[lquiquer]

It's a goer.

Instead of 3 derbies a season it becomes 9

Much easier to hock to media when they can have 9 big crowds a year like they did Saturday night

The problem is lots of FC members come from the shire and some from the south coast .....so what you might create is a poorly followed club???.... (I know I said that about the wankerers and see what happened!!..lol)........

[hawk]

The problem is lots of FC members come from the shire and some from the south coast .....so what you might create is a poorly followed club???.... (I know I said that about the wankerers and see what happened!!..lol)........

lol it probs will galvanise the Smurfs. thered be a few noobs hitting up south side. please let there be southern cross, Aussie flag wearing supports

[furns]

Can you imagine the carnage at a WSW vs South's derby game?
Cronulla riots three times a season :popcorn:

[hawk]

be forced to get to that

[GazFish35]

Darwin ffs.

[Wilso8948]

Gallop has always said the FFA will fish where fish are. Even if those are retarded fish.. anyone who thinks otherwise has rocks in their head. It'll be from a major city.

[Thomas477]

Not really a loss for the league if Nux go and are replaced by a substainable team from the south coast. Means that all 10 clubs will have a Youth team, and all 10 should have a women's team as well, instead of this current bs where Nux don't have either and are allowed to have more foreigners than any other a league side.

[Nou Camp]

did gold coast die because palmer killed it before it was born or because it just wont work....
half decent owner things could be very different???

[BodyNovo]

Nix are easily one of the best run teams in the league which is the embarrassing thing.

consortium of 24 blokes who only invest a couple of hundred grand a year which is short change for them.

[q-money]

this is an AFC thing though isn't it, wrapped up to look like a financial decision

australia still has no promotion/relegation, no real second division, and don't have the clout like the english do to get around the fact that a side in their competition comes from outside it's own FA , plus straya are still on the nose with a bloc of the gulf states who are pissed about losing perceived gift WC spots

[Jetmaster]

All along it has been down to Wellington belonging to a different confederation (Oceania). It will be embarrassing should they win the A-League as they cannot compete in the ACL.

[OmeletteDuFromage]

did gold coast die because palmer killed it before it was born or because it just wont work....
half decent owner things could be very different???

Nah, GC cant host sporting teams. Sporting events maybe, not teams. Titans and Suns are pretty average, Blaze were similar to GCU.

[The Camel]

Gallop has always said the FFA will fish where fish are. Even if those are retarded fish.. anyone who thinks otherwise has rocks in their head. It'll be from a major city.

Agreed but Shire is not the place in Sydney to be putting a team. Liverpool/Macarthur/Campbelltown is the fastest growing population base in Australia and it's a ****ing nightmare to get to Moore Park or Parra from there. Team based there is the best bet out of Campbelltown Stadium or eventually the new proposed stadium in Liverpool (which the Wests Tigers NRL are looking at). In addition it is also less than an hour from the Gong to Campbelltown meaning if you market there as well/put on some transport you could pick up a section of support from that region too.

[380]

You got buckleys and none chance of anybody from Wollongong travelling to C/town to support a side. They will not support a side from the Shire either.

Being an old Steelers and Wollongong Wolves supporter before moving here over 20yrs ago the Gong does not identify itself with any of these regions sporting or otherwise.

I have a lot of family associated with the game in the Gong ( W/gong, SC Wolves ) and all are Smurf supporters and unless a team was to be admitted that was totally representative of the Gong/ South Coast and the Gong only you would not get them to swing away from the smurfs to follow some hybrid creation between C/town or the Shire.

[borat]

Agreed but Shire is not the place in Sydney to be putting a team. Liverpool/Macarthur/Campbelltown is the fastest growing population base in Australia and it's a ****ing nightmare to get to Moore Park or Parra from there. Team based there is the best bet out of Campbelltown Stadium or eventually the new proposed stadium in Liverpool (which the Wests Tigers NRL are looking at). In addition it is also less than an hour from the Gong to Campbelltown meaning if you market there as well/put on some transport you could pick up a section of support from that region too.

Wasn't the FFA holding talks with Kogarah not that long ago? Methinks
This will be a Wollongong/Sth Sydney team

[The Postman]

They surely wouldn't want to get a South Coast team and a Southern Sydney team in at the same time. It would just be diluting the fan base of Sydney even more.

If the Nix on the outer and say a South Coast team does replace them, we are still at 10 teams and not any closer to satisfying the AFC's requirements.

[belchardo]

Could be a trade off though, turf NZ and we'll give you another few years for expansion.

[lquiquer]

To sort that AFC v Oceania shit, common sense always told me Asia and Oceania should merge then split into 2 confederations: West Asia and East Asia. So Middle East, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, old soviet federations in the west, Burma, Mongolia, and east Asia / Oceania in the East. Makes it roughly 28 countries in each side.... Then Nix stay in the AL.... And 2 in each confederation qualify for WC + a play off spot between east and west....

[Thomas477]

To sort that AFC v Oceania shit, common sense always told me Asia and Oceania should merge then split into 2 confederations: West Asia and East Asia. So Middle East, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, old soviet federations in the west, Burma, Mongolia, and east Asia / Oceania in the East. Makes it roughly 28 countries in each side.... Then Nix stay in the AL.... And 2 in each confederation qualify for WC + a play off spot between east and west....

Common sense in AFC and FIFA? Australia, Japan, South Korea and China won't want to lose a possible 2 WC spots to the Middle East. Look at the past 2 WCs, you've had Australia, S.Korea and Japan in both, and Iran and N.Korea making up the other spot.

[lquiquer]

Common sense in AFC and FIFA? Australia, Japan, South Korea and China won't want to lose a possible 2 WC spots to the Middle East. Look at the past 2 WCs, you've had Australia, S.Korea and Japan in both, and Iran and N.Korea making up the other spot.

What I said above is what I think would be fair... But I am quite aware it won't happen for obvious reasons you raised....

[GazFish35]

That half spot that ociena have isn't always a playoff against Asia either, so it can't be assumed the 5 spots would stay.

That half spot seems to go to who ever goes to Fifa with the biggest pile of cash.

[Nou Camp]

lower level first rounds qualifications can be split into east and west
then combine for the next rounds

[plague]

They should put an A-League team in Newcastle.

[The Postman]

Probably will never happen but I had some time to kill and came up with this

- 12 Teams - 2 Divisions
- Top 3 in each Division make the finals, next 2 highest place regardless of Division make it 8 teams total, single elimination
- More teams make the finals which means more incentive to play quality football all year and hopefully less pointless games come the final rounds
- Play Division teams 4 times, out of division teams 2 times = 32 Games total
- My hypothetical divisions are based on location and feature a lot derbies
- And rely on no Wellington and introduction of South Coast, Canberra and a second Brisbane team
- Could always split the divisions and have 3 'NSW' teams and 3 out of state teams
- Schedule would include things such as Perth playing both Brisbane teams Away in consecutive weeks to avoid some travel

Newcastle
Central Coast
Sydney FC
WSW
"South Coast"
"Canberra"

Victory
City
Perth
Adelaide
Brisbane
"Brisbane"

[GazFish35]

I still reckon the South American style apertura clausura two seasons in one would be good.

[furns]

Ppl really need to get over this no NZ teams in a league - NZ is approx 4 Mil more potential football supporters if NZFA can ever get their act together and work with the FFA to promote the league as a joint venture.
The way I see things, we have to begin expansion soon or risk the competition becoming stale and the general public lose complete interest.
In the next 2-3 seasons we need to launch teams in Brisbane/Ipswich and Wollongong.
In the next 5-7 seasons we should be launching teams in Sth Melbourne/Geelong, Canberra, Christchurch/Dunedin, Sth Sydney.
In the next 10-15 seasons we should then be able to launch teams in North Sydney and Fremantle and possibly FNQ and Tasmania.

Voila 20 teams, derbies all over the place and regional centres serviced and not left out.
After the 10 year mark, you let the second tier (NPL) clubs work towards being able to qualify for a-league status and then introduce promotion & relegation maybe only one or two teams for at least ten years after that.

This is of course is assuming that the tv deals increase and clubs can stabilise themselves.

[plague]

Some of these suggestions from you mob are pretty stupid.

1. Cut the league to 4 teams, 2 in Sydney 2 in Melbourne.

2. Play derbies every week.

3 ???????

4. Profit.

[leftrightout]

Probably will never happen but I had some time to kill and came up with this

- 12 Teams - 2 Divisions
- Top 3 in each Division make the finals, next 2 highest place regardless of Division make it 8 teams total, single elimination
- More teams make the finals which means more incentive to play quality football all year and hopefully less pointless games come the final rounds
- Play Division teams 4 times, out of division teams 2 times = 32 Games total
- My hypothetical divisions are based on location and feature a lot derbies
- And rely on no Wellington and introduction of South Coast, Canberra and a second Brisbane team
- Could always split the divisions and have 3 'NSW' teams and 3 out of state teams
- Schedule would include things such as Perth playing both Brisbane teams Away in consecutive weeks to avoid some travel

Newcastle
Central Coast
Sydney FC
WSW
"South Coast"
"Canberra"

Victory
City
Perth
Adelaide
Brisbane
"Brisbane"

Sydney FC vs Victory is one of the top 3, with Sydney derby and Melbourne derby, as the biggest money spinner they have. Splitting the comp and potentially losing that game for the season if one of the teams under performs would be worst case scenario for FFA and those clubs. I doubt you would find a single supporter of something like that in the league

[RAM]

Some of these suggestions from you mob are pretty stupid.

1. Cut the league to 4 teams, 2 in Sydney 2 in Melbourne.

2. Play derbies every week.

3 ???????

4. Profit.

:rof::rof:

[belchardo]

gallop gets in another kick...http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/oct/28/ffa-boss-criticises-wellington-phoenixs-off-field-contribution-to-a-league


Gallop said the New Zealand franchise had failed to perform well enough “on any metric” to guarantee their future...“We’re ambitious for the growth of the A-League. You can’t expect to just squat on a licence in our competition”...Gallop named crowds, TV ratings and membership as the crucial metrics, while acknowledging their on-field contribution was irrelevant to the decision.

also
Gallop admitted FFA were researching areas that could support a new club, including “looking carefully” at another potential team in Sydney.

[GazFish35]

another team in Sydney will stuff up SydFC's metrics

[Wilso8948]

Personally I think it's a good move. Potential to tap into a large market. More derbys which creates added interest in the game and + in membership. If based in Sydney will add to travelling away fans which means more $ through the gates of Jets home matches. I really don't get why everyone gets so strung up on having another Sydney team.

[380]

Another Sydney team, Is it really going to find new followers to come the game or just shift sand from the two existing clubs ?.

[Jeterpool]

Another Sydney team, Is it really going to find new followers to come the game or just shift sand from the two existing clubs ?.

I think the sand will be shifted. For me, Woollongong is the market.

[The Camel]

I think the sand will be shifted. For me, Woollongong is the market.

Problem is the joint is no bigger than Gypo land and even when they were winning no **** turned up there. Not enough of a support base for the Gong on it's own

[hawk]

We need another 2 teams cause I need more games to watch and Fox will pay more $.

Keep nix cause thats good adverts for football in NZ. Add the Shire quick then pick some hovel place for 12th team. Any place/region that can keep a core 8k crowd turning up

[belchardo]

then pick some hovel place for 12th team. Any place/region that can keep a core 8k crowd turning up

Did someone mention Canberra? :gent:

[Jeterpool]

Did someone mention Canberra? :gent:

I was going to ask your opinion. How do you think they'd go? Could they sustain it? There isn't a major summer sport team down there, is there?

[monz6]

Some of these suggestions from you mob are pretty stupid.

1. Cut the league to 4 teams, 2 in Sydney 2 in Melbourne.

2. Play derbies every week.

3 ???????

4. Profit.

the sydney teams would have to play the melbourne teams so there wouldn't be derbies every week.

[Grimario]

the sydney teams would have to play the melbourne teams so there wouldn't be derbies every week.

Anything is a derby if you want to market as such. The Distance Derby, ffs.

The Big Blue - SFC vs MV
The not originals derby - WSW vs MC
The Sky Blue vs Sky Blue Wannabe Derby - SFC vs MC
Former Socceroo Centre Back Turned Coach Derby - WSW vs MV


Sorted.

[Jeterpool]

Anything is a derby if you want to market as such. The Distance Derby, ffs.

The Big Blue - SFC vs MV
The not originals derby - WSW vs MC
The Sky Blue vs Sky Blue Wannabe Derby - SFC vs MC
Former Socceroo Centre Back Turned Coach Derby - WSW vs MV


Sorted.

:rof:

[Premy]

This is of course is assuming that the tv deals increase and the PFA doesn't bleed FFA for more than its share of the pie.Fixed

[belchardo]

I was going to ask your opinion. How do you think they'd go? Could they sustain it? There isn't a major summer sport team down there, is there?

poorly, no and no. I'd love it, but at the moment I don't see it working. plus the investors they had lined up all got jack of waiting and put their money elsewhere.

[RAM]

I was going to ask your opinion. How do you think they'd go? Could they sustain it? There isn't a major summer sport team down there, is there?

I hear no-one lives there is summer....

[Nou Camp]

would a combined Wollongong Canberra team work.....

[380]

Problem is the joint is no bigger than Gypo land and even when they were winning no **** turned up there. Not enough of a support base for the Gong on it's own

Not sure what you base those claims on.

about 100k difference in population if you are to include from the Burgh to Shellharbour.

The Wolves home crowds more often than not were no less than some of the teams playing in the Burbs of other major cities during the old NSL days.

I think you could forecast/budget for a season average of around 8.5k . 7.5k for home matches against inteterstate opp and somewhere in the region of 12k against other NSW based teams.

WIN Stadium is a reasonable place to get to by public transport all hours of the day and early evening.

Maybe i am a little bias being an old Wolves supporter myself but i would rather see the Wolves return in there own right or just as pleased to see a team from Canberra retrurn to the National comp.

All IMO of course.

[plague]

the sydney teams would have to play the melbourne teams so there wouldn't be derbies every week.

Why would they?
Geez guys am I the only person thinking outside the damn circle round here?

[GazFish35]

just get the epl to kickoff at reasonable times and rebadge all the graphics so people think theyre watching Australian football

[The Camel]

Not sure what you base those claims on.

about 100k difference in population if you are to include from the Burgh to Shellharbour.

The Wolves home crowds more often than not were no less than some of the teams playing in the Burbs of other major cities during the old NSL days.

I think you could forecast/budget for a season average of around 8.5k . 7.5k for home matches against inteterstate opp and somewhere in the region of 12k against other NSW based teams.

WIN Stadium is a reasonable place to get to by public transport all hours of the day and early evening.

Maybe i am a little bias being an old Wolves supporter myself but i would rather see the Wolves return in there own right or just as pleased to see a team from Canberra retrurn to the National comp.

All IMO of course.

IMO Gong > Canberra.

I just do not believe the regional teams are the best idea for the next phase of expansion. I think IF you COULD figure out how to work a Shire/Gong Hybrid AND get everyone engaged then that is ideal. I think a Wolves team would max average 7k a season and cannot see how this is profitable long term as the region is not going to grow population wise a massive amount. I see the Macarthur/Camden/Campbelltown/Liverpool region as the one to push ahead with. Far enough away from the City and Parra whilst having a large population already and also being the fastest growing population area in Australia.

Agree with the Nix getting the arse though. Unless the NZFA kick in a few million a year and SkyTV do the same we are effectively subsidizing NZ football development

[Premy]

Here's an Idea from left field.

Leave Nix where they are, get the NZ government, Sky TV and NZ Football to start spending a bit of money.
With that money finance Auckland City to join the A-League along with this Southern Sydney club in 2017.

2020 we bring in Western Pride (Ipswich) or Brisbane Strikers with Wollongong Wolves and wallah you have a 14 team competition A-League.

[GazFish35]

Dubbo

[380]

Dubbo

Not as silly as it seems. Pretty sure football followers from Parkes, Forbes , Wello , Mudgee and Orange would make the effort every second week.

Teams can stay at Emmo's in laws motel in Dubbo.

[GazFish35]

Wasn't a joke suggestion.

No national league has a truly regional/country presence.

Would help knock rugby league in arse out in the bush.

Would be hard to get footballers to move to a "remote" town though.

[Hunter403]

Geelong would be worth considering.

[The Postman]

Wasn't a joke suggestion.

No national league has a truly regional/country presence.

Would help knock rugby league in arse out in the bush.

Would be hard to get footballers to move to a "remote" town though.

Hunter Hawks, would give the Jets a real derby

[Grimario]

http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/article/ffa-chairmans-statement-on-future-of-hyundai-a-league/vu8mjj1f8u1k1uvs67fr9drfk

"**** off the lot of you, especially you Arnie. Pay attention to coaching, you twat"

I think that's how it translates.

[furns]

With a great crowd for the FFA Cup game down in the Gong, there seems to be a groundswell of support for Wolves to get a licence sooner rather than later. Would be nice for either Canberra or a 2nd Brisbane team to get the second new licence as well.

Interesting to see this article pop up today too, although I think it's way too soon for another Perth team
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/32304924/wa-push-for-second-perth-a-league-team/

[halo se7en]

With a great crowd for the FFA Cup game down in the Gong, there seems to be a groundswell of support for Wolves to get a licence sooner rather than later. Would be nice for either Canberra or a 2nd Brisbane team to get the second new licence as well.

Interesting to see this article pop up today too, although I think it's way too soon for another Perth team
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/32304924/wa-push-for-second-perth-a-league-team/

Do you think a second Brissy side would get the support? Considering the more recent success of the Roar, they still don't seem to get massive support (unless it just looks that way due to the size of suncorp)

[turbojetfireV8]

Scum need to look over their shoulder if there's a push for the Gong to get a look in...

[MFKS]

Do you think a second Brissy side would get the support? Considering the more recent success of the Roar, they still don't seem to get massive support (unless it just looks that way due to the size of suncorp)

Yes Suncorp is huge and looks empty with 12 k in. But considering their success to be getting crowds of 10k or so is a worry.
FFS they have won 3 GFs lost 2 GF qualifiers and the semis the other year in the last 6 years.

What are their crowds gonna be like when they losing and playing shit football???

The sooner the Capital cities like Perth Brisbane Adelaide are ready for second teams the better. Besides the Derby being a plus for the area having two teams in the media everyday having a game on each week in the city is good for the game.

Regional teams are dead end propositions

NQ failed
Gold Coast failed
Gypos are a basket case
Look at the cluster**** we are

Expansion has to come from the major cities and the regional places are a non goer until the FFA are in a position to subsidise and prop up sides like the AFL has done with GWS and Gold Coast Suns

[stopper2]

Yes Suncorp is huge and looks empty with 12 k in. But considering their success to be getting crowds of 10k or so is a worry.
FFS they have won 3 GFs lost 2 GF qualifiers and the semis the other year in the last 6 years.

What are their crowds gonna be like when they losing and playing shit football???

The sooner the Capital cities like Perth Brisbane Adelaide are ready for second teams the better. Besides the Derby being a plus for the area having two teams in the media everyday having a game on each week in the city is good for the game.

Regional teams are dead end propositions

NQ failed
Gold Coast failed
Gypos are a basket case
Look at the cluster**** we are

Expansion has to come from the major cities and the regional places are a non goer until the FFA are in a position to subsidise and prop up sides like the AFL has done with GWS and Gold Coast Suns
Interesting angle on this topic Member but I think we'll probably see a 3rd Sydney team (Sutherland/South Sydney) before the other capitals. Wollongong has a decent case but I think FFA are wary of giving a franchise to another regional area. Earlier in the week there was an article that a Chinese consortium was interested in getting a team into the A-League through NSL heavyweight the Melbourne Knights. Will be interesting to see if anything comes from this one.
We need to have a 14 team comp by 2020, with only 10 teams it is becoming stale. Probably won't happen for a while but a 2nd division with promotion/relegation needs to eventually come in too.

[turbojetfireV8]

One problem I have with expansion is population v distance = disproportionate travel costs in comparison to potential fan bases (particularly in the Australian market where football is still not the number one code in any state). Australia is virtually as large as the US with less than one tenth the population. A s'hithole like England is maybe the size of Victoria so travelling anywhere isn't gonna take that long comparatively. The cost v profitability of travelling more frequently around Australia would need the FFA to prop up the smaller regional teams, which isn't gonna happen I don't reckon, so the league would probably end up top heavy with Sydney and Melbourne teams with the other states not being profitable enough to support more than the current team a piece, and the regional teams failing - kind of like the old NSL really... :D

[hawk]

One problem I have with expansion is population v distance = disproportionate travel costs in comparison to potential fan bases (particularly in the Australian market where football is still not the number one code in any state). Australia is virtually as large as the US with less than one tenth the population. A s'hithole like England is maybe the size of Victoria so travelling anywhere isn't gonna take that long comparatively. The cost v profitability of travelling more frequently around Australia would need the FFA to prop up the smaller regional teams, which isn't gonna happen I don't reckon, so the league would probably end up top heavy with Sydney and Melbourne teams with the other states not being profitable enough to support more than the current team a piece, and the regional teams failing - kind of like the old NSL really... :D

Then theres paytv and if they ever decide to stump up enough cash to cover the travel etc then it may have a small chance.

imo crowds are the atmosphere more than revenue.

[lquiquer]

Opinions on having a team in Tasmania?..... They apparently had 2k last night on a rainy cold night..Would Tasmanians get behind their a-league sukkah team?

[GazFish35]

Opinions on having a team in Tasmania?..... They apparently had 2k last night on a rainy cold night..Would Tasmanians get behind their a-league sukkah team?

Not just 2k, that 2000 was 9.5% of the population!

[furns]

No to tassie. They are years away.
2nd Brisbane team should be located in Logan/Ipswich.
I think Wollongong would be a better option to Sth Sydney, SFC will kick up an absolute stink if it's a possibility of going ahead.

[Jetmaster]

No to second Brisbane team - even their NRL attempt (the Crushers) failed after the honeymoon period. As it is now Roar are a basket case - that needs to be sorted first.

[lquiquer]

No to second Brisbane team.

I agree. I don't think you can compare demographics of "Western Brisbane" to those of "Western Sydney", hence a franchise there I think wouldn't be a great success. Also populations of Sydney and Melbourne are both twice the population of Brisbane.
And personally I would prefer an Illawara team to a South Sydney team.

[GazFish35]

the Daily Football show did a series on expansion.

the demographics or that western Brisbane area seem good.

but sort the roar out first - mind you, WSW help give Syd FC the arse kicking they need.

maybe part of Roar's problem is they are able to be so complacent.







the Daily Football show series was quite good - if you can stand listen to Adrian Horton pretending to know what he's talking about.

[Jeterpool]

the Daily Football show did a series on expansion.

the demographics or that western Brisbane area seem good.

but sort the roar out first - mind you, WSW help give Syd FC the arse kicking they need.

maybe part of Roar's problem is they are able to be so complacent.







the Daily Football show series was quite good - if you can stand listen to Adrian Horton pretending to know what he's talking about.

I don't think they finished it. THey got through 8 of the 10 episodes they planned. And yes - it can be difficult to listen to. They tend to overall bash any club except the Melbourne and Sydney teams and tend to look at the negative of everything.

[Grimario]

tend to look at the negative of everything.

Welcome to nf.net/foz

[Jeterpool]

Welcome to nf.net/foz

I was going to add that but I decided not to.

But seriously, they bash us more than people on here.

[Jetmaster]

tend to look at the negative of everything.

So why isn't the good Membah host?

[GazFish35]

I love it when George Donikian asks a bloke a question and then gives the bloke his answer.... then moves on to his next question and proceeds to answer it for the bloke as well.

[stopper2]

No to tassie. They are years away.
2nd Brisbane team should be located in Logan/Ipswich.
I think Wollongong would be a better option to Sth Sydney, SFC will kick up an absolute stink if it's a possibility of going ahead.

Yeah I'm more inclined to go for the Gong ahead of a 3rd Sydney team. Have heard that SFC are dead against a team from Sutherland/South Sydney as 20% of their fanbase is from this area.

[plague]

it would be fantastic that if, one day, one of these 'football in the future' reports actually had a plan for football in the future.
The Yanks are showing how its done as far as infrastructure etc is concerned. Places like Brisbane should have a purpose built AAMI park sized stadium that they own and control. get a 2nd team to share it and get out from some of these garbage leases that are one of the biggest issues for current clubs.

Problem is in order for teams/owners to invest those sums of money the FFA is going to have to let them in on the power sharing. That was always the issue for Palmer and Tinks, blokes who came from a place that said if you pay the bills, you get a say in how your show is run. FFA aren't down with that. and this is generally where the argument begins and ends.

[The Dunster]

it would be fantastic that if, one day, one of these 'football in the future' reports actually had a plan for football in the future.
The Yanks are showing how its done as far as infrastructure etc is concerned. Places like Brisbane should have a purpose built AAMI park sized stadium that they own and control. get a 2nd team to share it and get out from some of these garbage leases that are one of the biggest issues for current clubs.

Problem is in order for teams/owners to invest those sums of money the FFA is going to have to let them in on the power sharing. That was always the issue for Palmer and Tinks, blokes who came from a place that said if you pay the bills, you get a say in how your show is run. FFA aren't down with that. and this is generally where the argument begins and ends.

The federal government with their unlimited spending power in the domestic currency need to step up to the plate and deliver the required infrastructure.
Private sector cannot and will not be able to do it due to their limited spending power and the need to make a profit [which there is nothing wrong with either].
The FFA is the worst of both worlds. It behaves like a government but has the limited spending power of a private enterprise.

The only way I can see this working is if government subsidies someone big enough to take on these types of projects under some kind of a BOOT scheme [ Build - Own - Operate -Transfer].
Therefore, the private sector get a risk free investment, a guaranteed ROI, and kudos from the public for being more efficient than government ... and so on [sic].
The government will also avoid any ridiculous comparisons to a Weimar Republic situation and have the costs removed from its balance sheet.
The fans will hopefully get the stadiums and League they desire and if their really lucky they might even be able to afford to see a game or two.

[plague]

The federal government with their unlimited spending power in the domestic currency need to step up to the plate and deliver the required infrastructure.
Private sector cannot and will not be able to do it due to their limited spending power and the need to make a profit [which there is nothing wrong with either].
The FFA is the worst of both worlds. It behaves like a government but has the limited spending power of a private enterprise.

oh absolutely there needs to be govt money involved. the fact football isn't even on the radar whilst the state govt is throwing around 1.5b in stadium upgrades just shows how unorganised and terrible the FFA is at greasing the wheel of these scumbag pollies.

problem is the current FFA structure doesn't allow the owners to make a dollar, and thats what they rebel against.
They need to go the route of the American sports, where owners own the league and appoint a commissioner to do their bidding. You wanna see investment? just get a bunch of ego driven rich folk in a room together and tell them there can only be one winner.

[Couscous]

I love it when George Donikian asks a bloke a question and then gives the bloke his answer.... then moves on to his next question and proceeds to answer it for the bloke as well.

Praise the Gaz. This has frustrated the sh|t out of me for yonks. Mark van Aken's similar but nowhere near as bad.

[GazFish35]

Praise the Gaz. This has frustrated the sh|t out of me for yonks. Mark van Aken's similar but nowhere near as bad.

It annoying isn't it? I mean you want to hear the bloke answer a question don't you couscous? It can be quite frustrating when the guy asking questions doesn't let the bloke answer, isn't it mate? I remember when I was running an interview and I always found the answers more thoughtful if the questioner just asked open ended questions and let the interviewee speak. That's the case isn't it couscous? It's amazing a pro journalist on an Amatuer podcast is the worst culprit isn't it? Actually, it's ironic rather than amazing. Glad we agree.

So, the Middle East.....

[furns]

It annoying isn't it? I mean you want to hear the bloke answer a question don't you couscous? It can be quite frustrating when the guy asking questions doesn't let the bloke answer, isn't it mate? I remember when I was running an interview and I always found the answers more thoughtful if the questioner just asked open ended questions and let the interviewee speak. That's the case isn't it couscous? It's amazing a pro journalist on an Amatuer podcast is the worst culprit isn't it? Actually, it's ironic rather than amazing. Glad we agree.

So, the Middle East.....
That's why we have the Jetstream Gaz.
I only talk over my fellow hosts :roflz:

[Couscous]

So, the Middle East.....

I agree. Praise the Gaz. Tell me more about my answer.

[plague]

I wish we would type over other people's posts.

[belchardo]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/12/a-league-expansion-a-strategic-priority-say-football-federation-australia

Looks like it's back on the agenda.

[boz-monaut]

defo needs to be a second team from The Hunter - Maitland would be ideal

second team from the Central Coast as well - a Morisset/Gosford derby would dog shit all over Milan/Inter, Celtic/Rangers, Liverpool/Everton etc

[Premy]

Second Division and Pro/Rel is more important than Expansion. Purely for the sake of avoiding the shit storm from AFC in the future.

Save me the B.S about not enough money in the game and the logistics of travel makes a Second Division non viable.
There's plenty of money in the game, there's also plenty of people on the gravy train filling unnecessary positions. As for the travel, fly f*#king economy class.

[Hunter403]

Promotion and relegation will eventually see regional "poor" teams like Newcastle and The Gypos replaced by capital city teams. This can only be avoided by a relegated A League side having to be replaced by the local NPL winner or it won't be much of a national league. Jets com last and replaced by say Jaffas. Jets last and replaced by Sydney United is unacceptable

Slow expansion and better publicity of NPL is the better solution

[Premy]

Promotion and relegation will eventually see regional "poor" teams like Newcastle and The Gypos replaced by capital city teams. This can only be avoided by a relegated A League side having to be replaced by the local NPL winner or it won't be much of a national league. Jets com last and replaced by say Jaffas. Jets last and replaced by Sydney United is unacceptable

Slow expansion and better publicity of NPL is the better solution

Not if you do it like the Japanese.

Second Division and pro/rel is a must or Australia can kiss the AFC bye bye.

[RAM]

Promotion and relegation will eventually see regional "poor" teams like Newcastle and The Gypos replaced by capital city teams. This can only be avoided by a relegated A League side having to be replaced by the local NPL winner or it won't be much of a national league. Jets com last and replaced by say Jaffas. Jets last and replaced by Sydney United is unacceptable

Slow expansion and better publicity of NPL is the better solution

If we're relegated its our own fault. Need to get our shit together. P/R will force our owners to pull the finger out instead of filling the squad with no names from China who've barely played in 3 years.

We should be able to compete with the likes of SU, South Melbourne, Blacktown etc

[Grimario]

I for one welcome relegation. We aren't good enough for HAL.

[plague]

There's plenty of money in the game, there's also plenty of people on the gravy train filling unnecessary positions. As for the travel, fly f*#king economy class.

I just cried thank you sir for keeping the spirit of the good Member in your heart and spitting some hot fire onto the rest of the people to keep them woke.

Bless you, and bless the Member, wherever he is.....

[plague]

I for one welcome relegation. We aren't good enough for HAL.

Bentley Greens are better than the Jets anyway.
I've always been a massive fan.
Would buy a shirt and/or flag if they made it to the HAL.

[The Camel]

Promotion and relegation will eventually see regional "poor" teams like Newcastle and The Gypos replaced by capital city teams. This can only be avoided by a relegated A League side having to be replaced by the local NPL winner or it won't be much of a national league. Jets com last and replaced by say Jaffas. Jets last and replaced by Sydney United is unacceptable

Slow expansion and better publicity of NPL is the better solution

It depends how it is done. There is not a need for Pro/Rel to be all the way down the pyramid. We can set up a 2nd division which is closed off from the NPL and have pro/rel only between those two divisions. Whilst you would definetly have big city teams in the 2nd div you would also be silly to not include the major regional areas so across the top two divisions the whole country is covered.

I would shoot for existing NPL teams and/or major regional associations to back a team ie ACT.

That Gives you Brisbane Strikers, Gold Coast City, Fury, Heat, Sunny Coast, Western Pride, Lions. As the Qld options
ACT Fed backed team or Canberra United
Wollongong, Blacktown, Sutherland(Maybe Cronulla NRL backed with Lyall Gorman at the helm), Macarthur, Sydney United, Manly as NSW Options
Sth Melb, Melb Knights, Hume, Bentleigh, Geelong, Dandenong as Vic Options
Tassie state backed team or Sth Hobart
Adelaide City, West Adelaide in SA
Joondalup, Perth SC or a Freo team in WA
NT state backed team out of Darwin
Possibly Auckland City if we continue with having Kiwis in the comp

Out of these would be the best option to get to 14 A league teams and then a second division of 10-14 teams with pro/rel between the 2. You don't need to have Pro/Rel from the NPL comps then, but you would expand the FFA Cup to a Round of 64 to include all the A and B league teams and a heap of NPL teams.

Japan started with 1 closed league, then introduced a second division and now a third. There is no promotion from local leagues to the 3rd div and the AFC are satisfied. Australia will need to introduce it eventually but it definitely will not need to be promotion from the NPL to Aleague.

[plague]

Imagine how many flares are gonna get ripped if we let proper efnik teams back in with an axe to grind.

Broadcast deal would be mega, must see tv.

[The Dunster]

St Josephs Broken Hill should be the first team selected for expansion. They even have their own Facebook page so the hard works already done. Just get Gallop to sign off on it and they'd be ready to start in no time at all.

[hawk]

I for one welcome relegation. We aren't good enough for HAL.

We'd struggle to get back up :blush:

[The Dunster]

Second Division and Pro/Rel is more important than Expansion. Purely for the sake of avoiding the shit storm from AFC in the future.

Save me the B.S about not enough money in the game and the logistics of travel makes a Second Division non viable.
There's plenty of money in the game, there's also plenty of people on the gravy train filling unnecessary positions. As for the travel, fly f*#king economy class.

In other words parents of kids playing junior football at all levels are going to be subsidising the senior teams. Business as usual then. I mean blokes who essentially can't aim up now are making $1000 a game. Put them in a competition with supposedly more status and they will want double that.

The comedy to follow will be immense.

[Jetmaster]

Syd/Mel set the rules...who remembers when Newcastle Rosebud got relegated, after coming 6th!!!

[The Dunster]

Syd/Mel set the rules...who remembers when Newcastle Rosebud got relegated, after coming 6th!!!

Yes. 1986 and APIA Tigers who finished 7th avoided relegation - is that right ? Following year APIA won the league.

[Premy]

In other words parents of kids playing junior football at all levels are going to be subsidising the senior teams. Business as usual then. I mean blokes who essentially can't aim up now are making $1000 a game. Put them in a competition with supposedly more status and they will want double that.

The comedy to follow will be immense.

So kids parents paying the wages of suits and "coaches" in a 3 tiered outdated and redundant governance system is completely fine.

[The Dunster]

So kids parents paying the wages of suits and "coaches" in a 3 tiered outdated and redundant governance system is completely fine.

I'm with you on this Premy not against. To me though it's still meet the new boss same as the old boss.

[Hunter403]

In other words parents of kids playing junior football at all levels are going to be subsidising the senior teams. Business as usual then. I mean blokes who essentially can't aim up now are making $1000 a game. Put them in a competition with supposedly more status and they will want double that.

The comedy to follow will be immense.

Dead right!

[Nou Camp]

few points I consider when talking about pro/rel
If the jets got relegated and could not get back up into the a league how can you grow the game in the hunter area without a top flight team? what damage does it do to football overall in the area that is growing
im for expansion and pro/rel but I just don't think Australia is ready for it
think of every team that has come last since inception and replace that team with a big NPL Sydney or Melb club (that's where the promoted teams are most likely to come from) you will have an aleague with 4 Sydney teams 4 melb teams a team from Brisbane and Perth etc

How many a league clubs who already struggle financially would fold straight after relegation?
how many plastic fans would abandon their club after relegation and potentially abandon football altogether with no top flight team in the area anymore

[The Camel]

few points I consider when talking about pro/rel
If the jets got relegated and could not get back up into the a league how can you grow the game in the hunter area without a top flight team? what damage does it do to football overall in the area that is growing
im for expansion and pro/rel but I just don't think Australia is ready for it
think of every team that has come last since inception and replace that team with a big NPL Sydney or Melb club (that's where the promoted teams are most likely to come from) you will have an aleague with 4 Sydney teams 4 melb teams a team from Brisbane and Perth etc


How many a league clubs who already struggle financially would fold straight after relegation?
how many plastic fans would abandon their club after relegation and potentially abandon football altogether with no top flight team in the area anymore

Agree but I think expanding to 14 teams in the A league is the first priority, and you could not have Pro/Rel without a closed off national 2nd divison

[The Dunster]

Agree but I think expanding to 14 teams in the A league is the first priority, and you could not have Pro/Rel without a closed off national 2nd divison

I'd be surprised if another 4 teams could be found ? The bigger non a-league clubs do just fine the way things are why would they want to flush that away to join a competition which is full of uncertainty?

They have the FFA cup to show what they can do and so far it's demonstrated just how far off the pace they are - and that's in a format which suits them. On a week to week basis none of the old NSL clubs that remain in some form or another could step in and be competitive over an entire season. Sure they could buy players but where from ?

Add to this the fact that we don't have enough quality refs for a ten team comp - where are the refs coming from for the extra two fixtures ?

Auckland, Fury, Gold Coast, Jets, and Mariners, to name a few... have either been kicked out or should have been so far for financial reasons - how will adding four more teams not result in more of the same or worse.

We don't need to be bossed about by the Asian confederation either - they need Australia in there and they know it. We should do what's best for us and ignore what is best for Asia if it's not in our best interest.

Alternatively - get rid of the salary cap, have no restrictions on foreign players, increase access for gaming / gambling - and let the market decide what the game is worth once and for all.

[plague]

If the jets got relegated and could not get back up into the a league how can you grow the game in the hunter area without a top flight team? what damage does it do to football overall in the area that is growing


how are they growing the damn thing at the moment with the shitrabble they toss out there every week?

[hawk]

few points I consider when talking about pro/rel
If the jets got relegated and could not get back up into the a league how can you grow the game in the hunter area without a top flight team? what damage does it do to football overall in the area that is growing
im for expansion and pro/rel but I just don't think Australia is ready for it
think of every team that has come last since inception and replace that team with a big NPL Sydney or Melb club (that's where the promoted teams are most likely to come from) you will have an aleague with 4 Sydney teams 4 melb teams a team from Brisbane and Perth etc

How many a league clubs who already struggle financially would fold straight after relegation?
how many plastic fans would abandon their club after relegation and potentially abandon football altogether with no top flight team in the area anymore

This.

We should get 2 extra teams before relo for mine. South Sydney Shire, Canberra, Taz or whoever can stump up a min 5yr deal.

[GazFish35]

How many a league clubs who already struggle financially would fold straight after relegation?
how many plastic fans would abandon their club after relegation and potentially abandon football altogether with no top flight team in the area anymore


if they cant produce on the field they don't deserve the protection that no relegation provides them.
if they get relegated and go bust, they'll be replaced by another team with their own set of fans.

eventually you get a second tier that is fighting for promotion, so they become stronger, and they are then able to "survive" dropping back down.

we need pro/rel to stop the a-league clubs from being even more complacent, and to stop the NPL clubs from giving up all hope - look what Marconi have done, they've no chance to get to the big league so they've banked their cash and are waiting in the lower leagues till pro/rel becomes reality and then they'll start investing in the team again.

neither NPL or A-league clubs need to invest in their football, the top tier have no fear of being dropped, and the lower tier have no hope of being able to sit at the big table.

if the jets got punted, then it'd be up to Magic, or Edgeworth, or whoever sits in the second tier to build a support base that is strong enough to see the club step up successfully. uif that means the hunter doesn't have a team in the top tier, that's fine, because it'd mean a better footballing team is in there in their place. Ina salary capped league a Melbourne/Sydney centric league would be less likely, when clubs are given the incentive to invest in the footballing departments to avoid relegation



pro-rel is needed - but will only work if the second teir - and maybe even a third (perhaps based on geography) are set up first, but it needs to happen quickly before the gap between full time professionals and amateur football becomes too much wider.
itwould also need to be supported by a very big TV deal, that see relgated clubs supported as is the case in Ingurland

[plague]

stadiums would be the biggest issue.

Jets go down who pays the rent at Hunter Stadium?

No chance they cover costs.

im a big supporter of the promotion relegation, but some real talk needs to be had before its viable.

Marconi gonna invest in their ground to make it an all seater/lighting compatible with only a 1 year guarantee?

i say no, so where does that leave us?

[The Dunster]

if they cant produce on the field they don't deserve the protection that no relegation provides them.
if they get relegated and go bust, they'll be replaced by another team with their own set of fans.

eventually you get a second tier that is fighting for promotion, so they become stronger, and they are then able to "survive" dropping back down.

we need pro/rel to stop the a-league clubs from being even more complacent, and to stop the NPL clubs from giving up all hope - look what Marconi have done, they've no chance to get to the big league so they've banked their cash and are waiting in the lower leagues till pro/rel becomes reality and then they'll start investing in the team again.

neither NPL or A-league clubs need to invest in their football, the top tier have no fear of being dropped, and the lower tier have no hope of being able to sit at the big table.

if the jets got punted, then it'd be up to Magic, or Edgeworth, or whoever sits in the second tier to build a support base that is strong enough to see the club step up successfully. uif that means the hunter doesn't have a team in the top tier, that's fine, because it'd mean a better footballing team is in there in their place. Ina salary capped league a Melbourne/Sydney centric league would be less likely, when clubs are given the incentive to invest in the footballing departments to avoid relegation



pro-rel is needed - but will only work if the second teir - and maybe even a third (perhaps based on geography) are set up first, but it needs to happen quickly before the gap between full time professionals and amateur football becomes too much wider.
itwould also need to be supported by a very big TV deal, that see relgated clubs supported as is the case in Ingurland

Hysteresis and the failure of the Efficient Markets Hypothesis to explain empirical data suggests FFA are not even close on this one.

Markets do not work like the fairytale TV / Texbook version a lot of people get. When they go under they damage the entire system - not just parts of it.

Football is the premier code in England and Europe. In Australia it's barely third tier making investment very difficult to find.

If a team fails here communities suffer and the effects don't go away overnight.

The idea that teams will be replaced by better ones and so on is just not supported.

With respect to investment all the data says that investment is linked to income. Income increases so to investment. Cost of investment in isolation has little to no meaning at all.
The only reason any business invests is because income has increased and they see an opportunity to put their fingers into the pie.
I cannot see how increasing the number of teams would attract investment in the league.

[The Dunster]

stadiums would be the biggest issue.

Jets go down who pays the rent at Hunter Stadium?

No chance they cover costs.

im a big supporter of the promotion relegation, but some real talk needs to be had before its viable.

Marconi gonna invest in their ground to make it an all seater/lighting compatible with only a 1 year guarantee?

i say no, so where does that leave us?

http://www.evilenglish.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/danbachman-up-a-creek-without-a-paddle.jpg

[plague]

http://www.evilenglish.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/danbachman-up-a-creek-without-a-paddle.jpg

and the only way that could end is with Con, at the helm of his paddle steamer, valiantly rescuing our damsel in distress.

[De-Champ]

I'd be surprised if another 4 teams could be found ? The bigger non a-league clubs do just fine the way things are why would they want to flush that away to join a competition which is full of uncertainty?

They have the FFA cup to show what they can do and so far it's demonstrated just how far off the pace they are - and that's in a format which suits them. On a week to week basis none of the old NSL clubs that remain in some form or another could step in and be competitive over an entire season. Sure they could buy players but where from ?

Add to this the fact that we don't have enough quality refs for a ten team comp - where are the refs coming from for the extra two fixtures ?

Auckland, Fury, Gold Coast, Jets, and Mariners, to name a few... have either been kicked out or should have been so far for financial reasons - how will adding four more teams not result in more of the same or worse.

We don't need to be bossed about by the Asian confederation either - they need Australia in there and they know it. We should do what's best for us and ignore what is best for Asia if it's not in our best interest.

Alternatively - get rid of the salary cap, have no restrictions on foreign players, increase access for gaming / gambling - and let the market decide what the game is worth once and for all.

What a load of nonsense. Add four or five imports to South Melbourne, plus one or two they pinch of other A league clubs and they would be very competative. Ditto with Adelaide City, 2nd Brisbane team any number of Sydney teams or other Melbourne teams. I would say you could find more than 4 teams. The problem the FFA has is outside the bigger cities (Sydney/Melbourne) you have problems attracting crowds.

[Jetmaster]

No problem with NSL clubs getting competent sides on the park. It's off the field the problems will be - can you honestly believe that South Melbourne will have a support base in Melbourne that is not of a Greek majority? Can they change that demographic because they have been saying they will for the last 20 years (right back to the Lakers days) and I still hear the "Hellas" chant. Same applies to Marconi, Sydney United and Melbourne Knights.

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition. This is why I want FFA to step up in their support for CCM, the Jets and other regional sides - they are truly needed. You lose us two and bring in SM and Marconi and you take a huge step backward.

[plague]

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition.

This post here is all the truth and knowledge you need.

The only way it will work is if the second tier comp is made up of new plastic rebranded clubs that have no obvious connection to the old school clubs.
Might work, might not, but we sure as heck ain't getting the words 'Marconi' of 'olympic' in the top flight of football in this country ever again.

[Superdylan]

It has the potential to **** our rivarly up with the gypos.

We need to expand first. Southern sydney/gong, canberra and geelong. Brisbane if they can get a second stadium 15-20k in the west.

[Grimario]

It has the potential to **** our rivarly up with the gypos.

We need to expand first. Southern sydney/gong, canberra and geelong. Brisbane if they can get a second stadium 15-20k in the west.

Why would it **** our rivalry up? We're both shit and will maintain our rivalry in the second division without issue.

[The Dunster]

No problem with NSL clubs getting competent sides on the park. It's off the field the problems will be - can you honestly believe that South Melbourne will have a support base in Melbourne that is not of a Greek majority? Can they change that demographic because they have been saying they will for the last 20 years (right back to the Lakers days) and I still hear the "Hellas" chant. Same applies to Marconi, Sydney United and Melbourne Knights.

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition. This is why I want FFA to step up in their support for CCM, the Jets and other regional sides - they are truly needed. You lose us two and bring in SM and Marconi and you take a huge step backward.

Great post.

[The Dunster]

What a load of nonsense. Add four or five imports to South Melbourne, plus one or two they pinch of other A league clubs and they would be very competative. Ditto with Adelaide City, 2nd Brisbane team any number of Sydney teams or other Melbourne teams. I would say you could find more than 4 teams. The problem the FFA has is outside the bigger cities (Sydney/Melbourne) you have problems attracting crowds.

But I don't hear any of these clubs saying that they want to join the A-league. Have I missed something ?

[The Camel]

No problem with NSL clubs getting competent sides on the park. It's off the field the problems will be - can you honestly believe that South Melbourne will have a support base in Melbourne that is not of a Greek majority? Can they change that demographic because they have been saying they will for the last 20 years (right back to the Lakers days) and I still hear the "Hellas" chant. Same applies to Marconi, Sydney United and Melbourne Knights.

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition. This is why I want FFA to step up in their support for CCM, the Jets and other regional sides - they are truly needed. You lose us two and bring in SM and Marconi and you take a huge step backward.

Yeah fair call. My thoughts are with a lot of those bigger NPL clubs they have the facilities to come straight into a second division without having to play at massive stadium with stupid rent costs. In Sydney, Sydney United have Edensor which is a fantastic facility, same with Blacktown, Campbelltown stadium and Shark Park and WIN for the Gong are all great spots as well as being geographically distinct, then you have Sth Melbourne and Melb Knights who have great boutique size grounds/stadiums.

[The Camel]

But I don't hear any of these clubs saying that they want to join the A-league. Have I missed something ?

Sth Melbourne have on a number of occasions and Adelaide City said they would love to if given an opportunity just this week. Knights have been vocal about not having any higher option than the NPL as well

[The Dunster]

Sth Melbourne have on a number of occasions and Adelaide City said they would love to if given an opportunity just this week. Knights have been vocal about not having any higher option than the NPL as well

Fair enough. Can't see it happening but I have learned something I did not know.

[Jetmaster]

But I don't hear any of these clubs saying that they want to join the A-league. Have I missed something ?

Sydney United are more or less demanding it - which I find concerning.


As Sydney United attempt to claim what is in effect the Australian second-tier title for the second time in four years, club boss Sam Krslovic has warned unless Football Federation Australia make serious moves towards establishing a nationwide second division, ambitious semi-pro clubs around the country will "take matters into their own hands".

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/social/npl-final-2016-sydney-united-boss-sam-krslovic-issues-ffa-with-stern-warning-20160927-grpaf6.html

[stopper2]

Sydney United are more or less demanding it - which I find concerning.



http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/social/npl-final-2016-sydney-united-boss-sam-krslovic-issues-ffa-with-stern-warning-20160927-grpaf6.html

Maybe from a neutral perspective Jetmaster it may be "concerning" but if you look at it from the viewpoint from Sydney United or South Melbourne, or the many other clubs you can begin to understand their frustrations with the current set-up.
FFA though have shown recently that a 2nd tier with promotion and relegation is well and truly in their future plans.
I do think though that clubs like Sydney United do have to accept that the process to get to this stage can't be rushed through. It is better to get it right from the beginning and set the foundations right, rather then the whole thing turning to shite in a few years and having to start all over again.

[The Dunster]

Sydney United are more or less demanding it - which I find concerning.



http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/social/npl-final-2016-sydney-united-boss-sam-krslovic-issues-ffa-with-stern-warning-20160927-grpaf6.html

Damn - I have been asleep then. Would be a disaster no doubt but the lolz would be immense if we got a 3rd team in Sydney

[hawk]

No problem with NSL clubs getting competent sides on the park. It's off the field the problems will be - can you honestly believe that South Melbourne will have a support base in Melbourne that is not of a Greek majority? Can they change that demographic because they have been saying they will for the last 20 years (right back to the Lakers days) and I still hear the "Hellas" chant. Same applies to Marconi, Sydney United and Melbourne Knights.

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition. This is why I want FFA to step up in their support for CCM, the Jets and other regional sides - they are truly needed. You lose us two and bring in SM and Marconi and you take a huge step backward.

This is why I hated the nsl. I could live next to the Mel knights* ground and feel alienated from the club. Feel the same about local clubs here as well. *pick any ethic dominant club

Clubs that are location based and that endeavour to get all people (multicultural) from that territory is much prefered for me.

[stopper2]

This is why I hated the nsl. I could live next to the Mel knights* ground and feel alienated from the club. Feel the same about local clubs here as well. *pick any ethic dominant club

Clubs that are location based and that endeavour to get all people (multicultural) from that territory is much prefered for me.

Rather sad that you feel that way hawk, that you are unable to embrace and accept a different culture but that's your perogative.
I'm sure players like Peter Haynes or Josh Piddington who have been at a "ethnic" club like Magic for years would have a different opinion on the matter.

[hawk]

Rather sad that you feel that way hawk, that you are unable to embrace and accept a different culture but that's your perogative.
I'm sure players like Peter Haynes or Josh Piddington who have been at a "ethnic" club like Magic for years would have a different opinion on the matter.

If you'd read properly im advocating cultural inclusion. Its the clubs who promote this crap. Maybe you need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall.

and yes if another player is good enough for the cause they're in.

[Nou Camp]

This is why I hated the nsl. I could live next to the Mel knights* ground and feel alienated from the club. Feel the same about local clubs here as well. *pick any ethic dominant club

Clubs that are location based and that endeavour to get all people (multicultural) from that territory is much prefered for me.

maybe the reasons these clubs were started were because those people felt alienated themselves when they arrived in Australia and got comfort in being around people that weren't going to call them wogs etc, an issue that still exists today

[stopper2]

If you'd read properly im advocating cultural inclusion. Its the clubs who promote this crap. Maybe you need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall.

and yes if another player is good enough for the cause they're in.


After a generation or two these clubs' nationalist element has definitley been watered down from what it was in the 80's so I think you are way off the mark when you refer to "clubs who promote this crap". Please elaborate by what you mean you "need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall"....I am intrigued?

[The Dunster]

Rather sad that you feel that way hawk, that you are unable to embrace and accept a different culture but that's your perogative.
I'm sure players like Peter Haynes or Josh Piddington who have been at a "ethnic" club like Magic for years would have a different opinion on the matter.

You cannot for a moment compare Magic or Olympic in Newcastle to what you get in Melbourne. Holy crap. I remember playing against Juventus in the early 1970's and not one of their players uttered a word in English all game. If they weren't rolling around on their backs faking injuries they were speaking Italian.
We beat them as well, and it didn't feel like a win until we were in the bus and on our way home. Oh and this was in shit beetle division. It would have been more intense with the divisions that could actually play.

[stopper2]

maybe the reasons these clubs were started were because those people felt alienated themselves when they arrived in Australia and got comfort in being around people that weren't going to call them wogs etc, an issue that still exists today

Good point Nou Camp.
What just like to add for our good friend hawk who is adamant that these club's didn't allow others to assimilate.
Has been well-documented in the past (including Johnny Warren's "Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters") that Indigenous players in the 50's and 60's like Charles Perkins were more readily accepted by the ethnic clubs then good old Aussie/Anglo clubs. Perkins played most of his football with Pan Hellenic (Greek) now Sydney Olympic and Canberra Deakin (Croatian). Says something about those times; that an Idigenous Aussie was made to feel more welcome at so-called ethnic clubs who were supposedly not good at "assimilating".

[stopper2]

You cannot for a moment compare Magic or Olympic in Newcastle to what you get in Melbourne. Holy crap. I remember playing against Juventus in the early 1970's and not one of their players uttered a word in English all game.

Oh dear, poor Dunster, the players did not utter a word of English!!! They probably done that on purpose so the opposition could not "catch on" to their tactics, hey.
Seriously mate, is that a real issue to you?
Do you go to shopping centres and here someone speaking a foreign language, does that offend you?

[The Dunster]

Oh dear, poor Dunster, the players did not utter a word of English!!! They probably done that on purpose so the opposition could not "catch on" to their tactics, hey.
Seriously mate, is that a real issue to you?
Do you go to shopping centres and here someone speaking a foreign language, does that offend you?

Given we had three Italians in our team and that five of my cousins I grew up with were also Italian I had a pretty fair grasp of the language and culture back then.
You on the other hand are clueless about Victorian football in the 1960's and 70's and should probably crawl back inside your Newcastle football bubble and ....

No offence.

[hawk]

After a generation or two these clubs' nationalist element has definitley been watered down from what it was in the 80's so I think you are way off the mark when you refer to "clubs who promote this crap". Please elaborate by what you mean you "need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall"....I am wardly more intrigued?

Because I feel a disconnect from ethnicity even you, the apparent knowledge of all cant refute it. And going the grub by throwing in slanderous allegations wont be tolerated, next time your'e out.

The clubs are not bad but maybe they could grow a larger crowd to that needed of aleague level by becoming outwardly more multicultural.

Yes these and many other clubs are the ones that kept football going when league and afl took over the country and look how that ended up.

[Jetmaster]

As I alluded earlier, the problem is not with true football fans. We understand the contribution of ethnic clubs.

The problem would be the perception of the media and general sports fans who would not get it. God help us if there was a flate ripped.

[stopper2]

Given we had three Italians in our team and that five of my cousins I grew up with were also Italian I had a pretty fair grasp of the language and culture back then.
You on the other hand are clueless about Victorian football in the 1960's and 70's and should probably crawl back inside your Newcastle football bubble and ....

No offence.

Okay, taking in the above why is it seemingly an "issue" because the Juventus players spoke Italian during the game? (which you brought up)
Football in Australia is inextricably linked with the post WWII migrant community.
It's something we should acknowledge and embrace as part of our games history in this country not be embarrassed about and weeded out of the history books.

[stopper2]

Because I feel a disconnect from ethnicity even you, the apparent knowledge of all cant refute it. And going the grub by throwing in slanderous allegations wont be tolerated, next time your'e out.

The clubs are not bad but maybe they could grow a larger crowd to that needed of aleague level by becoming outwardly more multicultural.

Yes these and many other clubs are the ones that kept football going when league and afl took over the country and look how that ended up.

Would love to know what these "slanderous allegations" are hawk, please explain?

BTW League and AFL have been the dominant codes for decades well before the NSL even came into being. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

[plague]

BTW League and AFL have been the dominant codes for decades well before the NSL even came into being. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

probably because the biggest participation sport in the country (and world) should have an immeasurable advantage in this country but time after time has failed to even get the smallest foothold in the top tier of the sporting lexicon.

and if you've been paying attention, people who lived through it are spelling out the reasons why 'they' (as individuals) felt disenfranchised from their own damn sport.

stop wagging your social justice finger at them and listen, you may see a common thread. one that was removed from the current incarnation of the sports attempt at mainstream success and lo and ****ing behold it may just be getting somewhere.

Go back and read jetmasters post from a bit back, then read it again, then again.
it will help.

[Premy]

Back to expansion.

The way I see it.
Pro/Rel is a long way off at least 20+ years, but we need to start laying the foundation for the future and stop thinking in 4-5 year cycles. If any of you have time look up the 100 year plan of Japanese football. In short the JFA in the early 90's set the goals to have 100 professional clubs and win the World Cup sometime in the next 100 years. Just over 20 years has past and they are already over half of their goal for 100 professional clubs.

The Second Division needs to be established ASAP.
From that the A-League can have it's expansion from promoting second division clubs, promotion based on not only on results but also criteria and geography. The FFA can identify clubs/regions it wishes to have in the A-League and said clubs can use the second division to ready itself for the A-League. All the while the remaining second division clubs can use the time to grow and prepare for the eventual implementation of Pro/Rel once all second division are A-League ready.

It just needs some forethought and correct planning but it needs to happen. We need to stop concentrating on 2016-2020 and start thinking were should football be in 2050 and how do we get it there.

[plague]

Back to expansion.


i don't think we moved away from it.
the last few posts have been making the point that theres no point introducing a 2nd tier if we are just going to fill it with established clubs.
the whole reason the A-League exists is to get away from those established clubs.
the 2nd division will need to be made up of 'a-league lite' versions of the blueprint already in operation.

[The Dunster]

Okay, taking in the above why is it seemingly an "issue" because the Juventus players spoke Italian during the game? (which you brought up)
Football in Australia is inextricably linked with the post WWII migrant community.
It's something we should acknowledge and embrace as part of our games history in this country not be embarrassed about and weeded out of the history books.

It was never an issue for me because I had family that were foreigners and grew up with people of many nationalities. My club for example was predominately Dutch when I started and became more English / Australian by the time I'd finished.
And you have it all wrong about not embracing the ethnicity of certain clubs back then. It was quite the opposite. The predominately ethnic clubs were without a doubt the most respected / feared and fixtures against them were never taken lightly. In fact you tended to put in extra at training that week so as to not be the recipients of a flogging. The players at these ethnic would have found game day was probably the only day of the week where they felt respected. At school and work many of them would have felt some form of alienation be it through being labeled a wog, dago... and so on by non football types.
I mean if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of it in the 60's and 70's you were considered feminine if you played the game regardless of your ethnicity. It was no doubt even worse in 50's.

Do I think those times should be embraced today ? No. The game has moved on / evolved and repeating the past makes no sense. We tried a national competition where the ethnic ties were strong and it simply did not work for many reasons not just ethnicity alone. We are all Australian's now no matter what we look like, how we speak, or where we were originally from.

I have no problem embracing the roles these clubs played in developing the game but the us vs them shit based on ethnicity should never be allowed to return because it didn't really help anyone.


Flame away.

[De-Champ]

Back to expansion.

The way I see it.
Pro/Rel is a long way off at least 20+ years, but we need to start laying the foundation for the future and stop thinking in 4-5 year cycles. If any of you have time look up the 100 year plan of Japanese football. In short the JFA in the early 90's set the goals to have 100 professional clubs and win the World Cup sometime in the next 100 years. Just over 20 years has past and they are already over half of their goal for 100 professional clubs.

The Second Division needs to be established ASAP.
From that the A-League can have it's expansion from promoting second division clubs, promotion based on not only on results but also criteria and geography. The FFA can identify clubs/regions it wishes to have in the A-League and said clubs can use the second division to ready itself for the A-League. All the while the remaining second division clubs can use the time to grow and prepare for the eventual implementation of Pro/Rel once all second division are A-League ready.

It just needs some forethought and correct planning but it needs to happen. We need to stop concentrating on 2016-2020 and start thinking were should football be in 2050 and how do we get it there.

Agree. The only problem I see before you can have pro/relegation is you must have (1) more A/league teams, ten is not enough (2) you need the to be as close to self sufficient as possible (break even) otherwise you will end up with a bigger mess than we have now. (3) The expansion team/places that you think of are different to where the FFA think of.

[The Dunster]

Would the status of the 2nd tier teams be professional and if so what access and influence would the PFA have ?

My guess would be that their involvement would increase costs to clubs to levels they do not currently have to endure - and perhaps may not have even considered.

[monz6]

Because I feel a disconnect from ethnicity even you, the apparent knowledge of all cant refute it. And going the grub by throwing in slanderous allegations wont be tolerated, next time your'e out.

The clubs are not bad but maybe they could grow a larger crowd to that needed of aleague level by becoming outwardly more multicultural.

Yes these and many other clubs are the ones that kept football going when league and afl took over the country and look how that ended up.

What local clubs do you feel alienated by and which ones could become more multicultural in your opinion?

[furns]

We had a bit of a discussion on pro/rel & expansion at the end of the Jetstream preview podcast released yesterday. Some good points raised.

[joel31]

I've heard that the FFA are looking at Adelaide and Brisbane to expand to next as they want derbies

[halo se7en]

I've heard that the FFA are looking at Adelaide and Brisbane to expand to next as they want derbies

I'm skeptical of another team in either city. Current membership numbers:

Adelaide: 8,911, after just winning the title and being pretty consistent for the last 11 seasons.
Brisbane: 4,653, despite winning the grand final 3 times and the other thing twice, as well as having some of the best players in the league grace their pitch.

Jets: 7,787.

I can't see how teams in either of those cities could really attract new fans. To me WSW made sense because it was a whole different area of Sydney. I'm not sure where the Melb City fans came from, but at least they have the population and sporting interest to warrant it.

[belchardo]

I could maybe see perth with a second team.

But anyway, doesn't another sydney team give you 6 more "derbies" whereas adelaide only gives you 3?

[joel31]

I'm skeptical of another team in either city. Current membership numbers:

Adelaide: 8,911, after just winning the title and being pretty consistent for the last 11 seasons.
Brisbane: 4,653, despite winning the grand final 3 times and the other thing twice, as well as having some of the best players in the league grace their pitch.

Jets: 7,787.

I can't see how teams in either of those cities could really attract new fans. To me WSW made sense because it was a whole different area of Sydney. I'm not sure where the Melb City fans came from, but at least they have the population and sporting interest to warrant it.
I don't think it's a great idea either. I'm just saying what i heard

[Pico]

Back to expansion.

The way I see it.
Pro/Rel is a long way off at least 20+ years, but we need to start laying the foundation for the future and stop thinking in 4-5 year cycles. If any of you have time look up the 100 year plan of Japanese football. In short the JFA in the early 90's set the goals to have 100 professional clubs and win the World Cup sometime in the next 100 years. Just over 20 years has past and they are already over half of their goal for 100 professional clubs.

The Second Division needs to be established ASAP.
From that the A-League can have it's expansion from promoting second division clubs, promotion based on not only on results but also criteria and geography. The FFA can identify clubs/regions it wishes to have in the A-League and said clubs can use the second division to ready itself for the A-League. All the while the remaining second division clubs can use the time to grow and prepare for the eventual implementation of Pro/Rel once all second division are A-League ready.

It just needs some forethought and correct planning but it needs to happen. We need to stop concentrating on 2016-2020 and start thinking were should football be in 2050 and how do we get it there.

For me the first steps should be to create a summer based second division to work in unison with the HAL. It would need to be considered professional, but would need to be reflective of the tier two status, by negotiating suitable player salary cap and conditions, it will need to be cheap, if anyone actually thinks TV broadcaster would pay large sums of money for the rights they are deluded. Funding is going to be very hard and their would be a good chance no TV revenue of any significance would be available.

The Most suitable NPL teams should be targeted, facilities, management levels, cash etc should be used to grade them and then combine them with the HAL youth teams.This would have 2 benefits, 1. Increase the current level of competition for the HAL youth teams, its currently well below par, whilst hopefully reducing the amount of travel by having less interstate transit by utilising a conference system, even though I dislike the concept. 2. Provide another step up for exposure for organisations to show they are capable of running club before getting the keys to a HAL spot.

This type of set up would also allow HAL clubs to loan players up and down between the two divisions as injury replacements, which should be used to 1. get players returning from injury some much needed game time, 2. create a revenue stream for tier two clubs & 3. if a player has a good NPL season they could take a loan spell upto the second division to test themselves.

By utilising the youth teams you wouldn't need to create a huge new division and have to find all these extra professional players, you could start with two 10 team conferences and work from.
there. The point of a second division should be about creating a step up in class from the NPL and concentrating the talent pool is necessary to achieve that, currently with the NPL system players are very spread out.

[hawk]

For me the first steps should be to create a summer based second division to work in unison with the HAL. It would need to be considered professional, but would need to be reflective of the tier two status, by negotiating suitable player salary cap and conditions, it will need to be cheap, if anyone actually thinks TV broadcaster would pay large sums of money for the rights they are deluded. Funding is going to be very hard and their would be a good chance no TV revenue of any significance would be available.

Would this system be relo and promotion?

As someone suggested above, my biggest worry is what happens when smaller areas like us that will be likely be stuck in div2. I can some teams falling off together and then the big city clubs all remain in top div.

[Pico]

Would this system be relo and promotion?

As someone suggested above, my biggest worry is what happens when smaller areas like us that will be likely be stuck in div2. I can some teams falling off together and then the big city clubs all remain in top div.

In my mind initially no, (and just no in general imo) however it could be used to meet the requirements of P/R. You could have a set criteria that extends beyond just league finish, the k-league I believe has a similar system.

A system could perhaps be to finish top two of their conference (remembering that they would be competing against, and need to finish above all the HAL youth teams), win a playoff of the top conference teams (two from each) in a home and away mini season and then still meet the criteria, well if they achieve that, why not bump them up and expand the HAL organically, for me P/R has good points and bad but for the most, I believe the bad still out way the good at this point.

I admire the J-league for having the balls to set bench marks and have real world goal's & targets in their 100 year plan, in short it's aspirational, compare it to the FFA's large on concepts and rhetoric but completely devoid of any measurable outcomes, strategy or implementation plans that is the whole of football plan. They should have just called it what it is, Australian Football's Great Hope.

[RAM]

If you'd read properly im advocating cultural inclusion. Its the clubs who promote this crap. Maybe you need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall.

and yes if another player is good enough for the cause they're in.

NSL went mainstream in 80s - did **** all

P/R should be decided on the pitch, not on NCIP based boardroom decisions.

[plague]

P/R should be decided on the pitch, not on NCIP based boardroom decisions.

agree, i just hope the 'new' teams in the 2nd div are all compliant BEFORE they kick a ball. It will help avoid any dramas later on.

[stopper2]

It was never an issue for me because I had family that were foreigners and grew up with people of many nationalities. My club for example was predominately Dutch when I started and became more English / Australian by the time I'd finished.
And you have it all wrong about not embracing the ethnicity of certain clubs back then. It was quite the opposite. The predominately ethnic clubs were without a doubt the most respected / feared and fixtures against them were never taken lightly. In fact you tended to put in extra at training that week so as to not be the recipients of a flogging. The players at these ethnic would have found game day was probably the only day of the week where they felt respected. At school and work many of them would have felt some form of alienation be it through being labeled a wog, dago... and so on by non football types.
I mean if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of it in the 60's and 70's you were considered feminine if you played the game regardless of your ethnicity. It was no doubt even worse in 50's.

Do I think those times should be embraced today ? No. The game has moved on / evolved and repeating the past makes no sense. We tried a national competition where the ethnic ties were strong and it simply did not work for many reasons not just ethnicity alone. We are all Australian's now no matter what we look like, how we speak, or where we were originally from.

I have no problem embracing the roles these clubs played in developing the game but the us vs them shit based on ethnicity should never be allowed to return because it didn't really help anyone.


Flame away.

Good post Dunster, I share your sentiments.

[stopper2]

i don't think we moved away from it.
the last few posts have been making the point that theres no point introducing a 2nd tier if we are just going to fill it with established clubs.
the whole reason the A-League exists is to get away from those established clubs.
the 2nd division will need to be made up of 'a-league lite' versions of the blueprint already in operation.

.....and WHY will it have to be made up of "a-league lite" versions?
You say a lot of things I agree with plague and a lot of the times I can see you are just trying to take the piss and sometimes I just don't agree with you but this just won't happen mate. You might as well tell these clubs to fold because there is nothing for them to aspire to other then to rot away in state NPL.
We need to be inclusive if we want the game to grow and achieve it's potential, treating established clubs like outcasts is not good for the game to grow and be united.

[plague]

We need to be inclusive if we want the game to grow and achieve it's potential, treating established clubs like outcasts is not good for the game to grow and be united.

Except for the fact we just spent 10 years running as far away from the past as we could and it seems to be working ok.

It seems the only viable way you'll get your football utopia is with a hashtag, candlelight vigil of Facebook filter.

Good luck.

[hawk]

It seems the only viable way you'll get your football utopia is with a hashtag, candlelight vigil of Facebook filter.

Good luck.

Football utopia is already here. There wont be domination in aus as the other codes are too well entrenched and thats ok.

I find that attaining an acceptance on an equal level with our other national sports (not there yet) and a having a restspectable "international" accliamed comp is all I ever needed.

oh and I want a world cup win

[plague]

Football utopia is already here. There wont be domination in aus as the other codes are too well entrenched and thats ok.


I think some people on here's idea of utopia won't eventuate until some club your great grand pappy told you about and their 3,000 fans stand side by side with your plastics/mongs etc.

Can't wait for that day, sounds ace.

[stopper2]

Except for the fact we just spent 10 years running as far away from the past as we could and it seems to be working ok.

It seems the only viable way you'll get your football utopia is with a hashtag, candlelight vigil of Facebook filter.

Good luck.

Yeah running away from the past for much of those 10 years but there is a change in the air brought about by the FFA Cup where the divide of "old soccer" and "new football" is being narrowed.
Mate, I couldn't be bothered arguing with you but if you really think that clubs like South Melbourne or Sydney United shouldn't be part of a proposed 2nd Tier competition down the track then you really shows you aren't up to speed with the general mood in the football community whether it's people like Bozza and Simon Hill in the media or your average Joe Blow expressing his views on social media.
Good luck to you too.

[plague]

Yeah running away from the past for much of those 10 years but there is a change in the air brought about by the FFA Cup where the divide of "old soccer" and "new football" is being narrowed.
Mate, I couldn't be bothered arguing with you but if you really think that clubs like South Melbourne or Sydney United shouldn't be part of a proposed 2nd Tier competition down the track then you really shows you aren't up to speed with the general mood in the football community whether it's people like Bozza and Simon Hill in the media or your average Joe Blow expressing his views on social media.
Good luck to you too.

OK i have some discussion points.
I didnt start the A-League, some very clever people did and their formula, whilst not perfect, seems to be heading in the right direction. My opinion was formed by listening to the people who started (and ran) the league for the first 10 years. Simon Hill, Bozza etc all have their hopes and dreams and good on them. but people like that 'wishing' for something versus the statements of people who actually manage the game in the country would definitely point to my way of thinking rather than yours.

also, im fine with people from old clubs being involved in new football. if they ditch the flags, the badge, the colours, the name and team up with a few other like minded clubs they could probably put a viable franchise proposal forward. If you think those old clubs can stand alone, let alone have the infrastructure and capital to even get up to A-League standard then I'm reading different reports to you. Again happy to be educated on this but you're not really providing me the relevant resources.

Also, the love fest that is the FFA cup is rigged deliberately to get a non A-League club to the semis. If everyone is on an even playing field you think any of these cubs are get within a bulls roar of the established clubs?

Also, to your last point, and sorry but im gonna have to call you out for telling fibs here. I looked up the twitter account of @joeblow and he has no opinion on the state of football in Australia in fact all he seems to do is tag a company called 'karmaloop' in the hope of getting some "free gear".

You can check his account here (https://twitter.com/joeblow).

speak soon.

Cheers,
Plague.

[rhysd]

OK i have some discussion points.
I didnt start the A-League, some very clever people did and their formula, whilst not perfect, seems to be heading in the right direction. My opinion was formed by listening to the people who started (and ran) the league for the first 10 years. Simon Hill, Bozza etc all have their hopes and dreams and good on them. but people like that 'wishing' for something versus the statements of people who actually manage the game in the country would definitely point to my way of thinking rather than yours.

also, im fine with people from old clubs being involved in new football. if they ditch the flags, the badge, the colours, the name and team up with a few other like minded clubs they could probably put a viable franchise proposal forward. If you think those old clubs can stand alone, let alone have the infrastructure and capital to even get up to A-League standard then I'm reading different reports to you. Again happy to be educated on this but you're not really providing me the relevant resources.

Also, the love fest that is the FFA cup is rigged deliberately to get a non A-League club to the semis. If everyone is on an even playing field you think any of these cubs are get within a bulls roar of the established clubs?

Also, to your last point, and sorry but im gonna have to call you out for telling fibs here. I looked up the twitter account of @joeblow and he has no opinion on the state of football in Australia in fact all he seems to do is tag a company called 'karmaloop' in the hope of getting some "free gear".

You can check his account here (https://twitter.com/joeblow).

speak soon.

Cheers,
Plague.

Wow. Agreed.

[stopper2]

OK i have some discussion points.
I didnt start the A-League, some very clever people did and their formula, whilst not perfect, seems to be heading in the right direction. My opinion was formed by listening to the people who started (and ran) the league for the first 10 years. Simon Hill, Bozza etc all have their hopes and dreams and good on them. but people like that 'wishing' for something versus the statements of people who actually manage the game in the country would definitely point to my way of thinking rather than yours.

also, im fine with people from old clubs being involved in new football. if they ditch the flags, the badge, the colours, the name and team up with a few other like minded clubs they could probably put a viable franchise proposal forward. If you think those old clubs can stand alone, let alone have the infrastructure and capital to even get up to A-League standard then I'm reading different reports to you. Again happy to be educated on this but you're not really providing me the relevant resources.

Also, the love fest that is the FFA cup is rigged deliberately to get a non A-League club to the semis. If everyone is on an even playing field you think any of these cubs are get within a bulls roar of the established clubs?

Also, to your last point, and sorry but im gonna have to call you out for telling fibs here. I looked up the twitter account of @joeblow and he has no opinion on the state of football in Australia in fact all he seems to do is tag a company called 'karmaloop' in the hope of getting some "free gear".

You can check his account here (https://twitter.com/joeblow).

speak soon.

Cheers,
Plague.

Mate you were the one who stated that there is no place for the "established" clubs in the A-League 2nd Division, I simply disagreed as there has been enough "us and them" mentality and then in your reply you go off on some typical BS rant clouding the issue.
Lets just watch this space then hey....lets see which clubs make up the 2nd Division. I bet you it will be bona fide existing clubs too not some plastic franchise or as you have hited; amalgamations (now that is laughable....imagine Melb Knights and Sth Melbourne ha ha)

A 2nd Division won't be happening within 3 years minimum, probably closer to 5 and even then I'd say it will be a few years again before there is any promotion/relegation. The FFA's main priority (and rightly so) is to get 12 or even 14 sustainable clubs in the A-League first. Now are we in agreeance with this?

[lquiquer]

I think we all want 2nd division promotion / relegation, but no one knows which way to do it.... every angle u look at it and there are huge walls to climb: incorporating existing state league clubs or creating / renaming 10 to 12 new franchise being the biggest question. Then comes sustainability hurdles ......

[plague]

Mate you were the one who stated that there is no place for the "established" clubs in the A-League 2nd Division, I simply disagreed as there has been enough "us and them" mentality and then in your reply you go off on some typical BS rant clouding the issue.
Lets just watch this space then hey....lets see which clubs make up the 2nd Division. I bet you it will be bona fide existing clubs too not some plastic franchise or as you have hited; amalgamations (now that is laughable....imagine Melb Knights and Sth Melbourne ha ha)

A 2nd Division won't be happening within 3 years minimum, probably closer to 5 and even then I'd say it will be a few years again before there is any promotion/relegation. The FFA's main priority (and rightly so) is to get 12 or even 14 sustainable clubs in the A-League first. Now are we in agreeance with this?

oh stopper, what are we gonna do with you?
firstly, read the posts. then don't get so worked up. You did the same with Hawk. 'us vs them'? where did you get that one from?
All im trying to do is explain the FFA's position to you and point out that i have no reason to doubt they would veer away from that blueprint.
if you're having trouble seeing that then theres not much more i can do for you.

[RAM]

Many NPL clubs already operate on budgets of $200K +, with a bit of national exposure and the incentive of promotion (why spend more now when you're at the ceiling with no extra sponsorship $$ etc) they could easily sustain $1M in a second division.

I think its naive to assume that these clubs wouldn't know how to be viable in that environment when many have been doing it for 70 odd years.

The nature of an open system is that those that can't survive or are run poorly, ala Portsmouth or Blackpool, are removed and replaced by better run enterprises.

If the Jets can't deal with that despite our sugar daddy and substantial local support then we have no right to demand a place in the top tier.

[Jetmaster]

Some people need to read the thread as to why clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United would find it hard.....it isn't about business nous, money or capacity to field a competitive team.

It is perception of the general sporting public and media to these clubs. One chant of "Hellas" at Middle Park would wipe everything.

[The Camel]

Some people need to read the thread as to why clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United would find it hard.....it isn't about business nous, money or capacity to field a competitive team.

It is perception of the general sporting public and media to these clubs. One chant of "Hellas" at Middle Park would wipe everything.

True, there are NPL teams around that would definitely be looked at in a favourable light to go into a second division, but it would be because they are in a favourable location and are not mono ethnic. Wollongong Wolves and Sutherland Sharks are an example of a team that could realistically go straight into a second division. Gold Coast City, FNQ Heat and NQ Fury as well as the Strikers and maybe Western Pride in Qld. Even Dandenong Thunder in Vic as that area's population is expanding like the Campbelltown/Macarthur area of Sydney

[RAM]

Some people need to read the thread as to why clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United would find it hard.....it isn't about business nous, money or capacity to field a competitive team.

It is perception of the general sporting public and media to these clubs. One chant of "Hellas" at Middle Park would wipe everything.

The FFA Cup is popular notwithstanding the strong ethnic links to many of the games.

We should celebrate our diversity, we're not living in the 60s anymore.

FFS Dandenong Thunder is an ethnic club

P/R should be decided on the pitch, with a South Korean style criteria to ensure that clubs that do go up have the facilities. Like it or not most of the clubs at the moment who do are ones which has ethnic roots. If they're good enough and have the backing, then they deserve to go up - regardless of any racist opinions otherwise

[RAM]

True, there are NPL teams around that would definitely be looked at in a favourable light to go into a second division, but it would be because they are in a favourable location and are not mono ethnic. Wollongong Wolves and Sutherland Sharks are an example of a team that could realistically go straight into a second division. Gold Coast City, FNQ Heat and NQ Fury as well as the Strikers and maybe Western Pride in Qld. Even Dandenong Thunder in Vic as that area's population is expanding like the Campbelltown/Macarthur area of Sydney

Dandenong is ethnic ffs

We don't want a 2nd division of Mariners-esque teams....

[plague]

Many NPL clubs already operate on budgets of $200K +, with a bit of national exposure and the incentive of promotion (why spend more now when you're at the ceiling with no extra sponsorship $$ etc) they could easily sustain $1M in a second division.

I think its naive to assume that these clubs wouldn't know how to be viable in that environment when many have been doing it for 70 odd years.



So the model A-league club everyone points to (Victory) has an operating budget of about $18.5m.
You now expect these local teams to magically muscle in on the corporate/fan dollar in Melbourne (competing with not only established A-league clubs but also AFL/Rugby League teams that can give a company much bigger exposure) in order to even be remotely competitive?
Ok.



Add to that compliance costs/licence fees (which the FFA WILL be charging to enter) and you are talking an astronomical increase in the size of their business.


So no, it's not being naive, it's being realistic.


Also, and this relates to my man stopper, can someone point me to the articles relating to South Melbourne etc wanting to be in the A-League 'as' South Melbourne?
Because all I can see is a very different tact (which is kind of what I've been saying anyway).

But yeah, hit me up.

[RAM]

So the model A-league club everyone points to (Victory) has an operating budget of about $18.5m.
You now expect these local teams to magically muscle in on the corporate/fan dollar in Melbourne (competing with not only established A-league clubs but also AFL/Rugby League teams that can give a company much bigger exposure) in order to even be remotely competitive?
Ok.



Add to that compliance costs/licence fees (which the FFA WILL be charging to enter) and you are talking an astronomical increase in the size of their business.


So no, it's not being naive, it's being realistic.


Also, and this relates to my man stopper, can someone point me to the articles relating to South Melbourne etc wanting to be in the A-League 'as' South Melbourne?
Because all I can see is a very different tact (which is kind of what I've been saying anyway).

But yeah, hit me up.

Is a second division always on par financially with the top flight? FMD

Are championship clubs spending the same as EPL clubs?

Why do 2nd division teams need to operate on an $18M budget? Do the Jets or Mariners?

With TV money of $5M(?) or so if they're promoted to the HAL, why wouldn't the 2nd division teams be competitive?

[RAM]

Furthermore, why disregard these clubs purely because of their heritage in favour of non-existent clubs like Canberra etc?

Its less of a jump for them than compared to a completely new set up FFS

[plague]

regardless of any racist opinions otherwise

Oh man oh man oh man.

There it is ladies and gentlemen.

Congrats sir.

[plague]

Is a second division always on par financially with the top flight? FMD

Are championship clubs spending the same as EPL clubs?

Why do 2nd division teams need to operate on an $18M budget? Do the Jets or Mariners?

With TV money of $5M(?) or so if they're promoted to the HAL, why wouldn't the 2nd division teams be competitive?

Because from year two when the first A-League team goes down everyone in the 2nd div will be outspent.

You guys are telling me the 2nd div is there to get teams into the A-League aren't you?

Well wouldnt they have to be better than A-league level teams to get there?

and of course they wouldn't be spending $18.5m in div 2. but they sure as hell won't be spend $1m either. Even if it's half, isn't the jump from $1m to 6,7,8 or 9 still a big jump?

(Obviously not for zillionaires like Hawk).

Actually it just seems like we have very differing opinions on what this 2nd div should look like.

Why don't you jot me down some points on what you expect it to be to help out.

[plague]

Furthermore, why disregard these clubs purely because of their heritage in favour of non-existent clubs like Canberra etc?

Its less of a jump for them than compared to a completely new set up FFS

Again, because it's the blueprint of the damn league.

[The Dunster]

Because from year two when the first A-League team goes down everyone in the 2nd div will be outspent.

You guys are telling me the 2nd div is there to get teams into the A-League aren't you?

Well wouldnt they have to be better than A-league level teams to get there?

and of course they wouldn't be spending $18.5m in div 2. but they sure as hell won't be spend $1m either. Even if it's half, isn't the jump from $1m to 6,7,8 or 9 still a big jump?

(Obviously not for zillionaires like Hawk).

Actually it just seems like we have very differing opinions on what this 2nd div should look like.

Why don't you jot me down some points on what you expect it to be to help out.

This post makes too much sense, What is it doing on the Foz ?

[plague]

This post makes too much sense, What is it doing on the Foz ?

Sorry, but I took my meds this morning, this is a sad by product.

but (sadly) it seems I'm a racist though.

[stopper2]

Some people need to read the thread as to why clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United would find it hard.....it isn't about business nous, money or capacity to field a competitive team.

It is perception of the general sporting public and media to these clubs. One chant of "Hellas" at Middle Park would wipe everything.

Why should this matter in a multicultural country like Australia in the 21st century where we have a foreign flag (the Union Jack) as part of our flag?....just sayin:rof:

[RAM]

Because from year two when the first A-League team goes down everyone in the 2nd div will be outspent.

You guys are telling me the 2nd div is there to get teams into the A-League aren't you?

Well wouldnt they have to be better than A-league level teams to get there?

and of course they wouldn't be spending $18.5m in div 2. but they sure as hell won't be spend $1m either. Even if it's half, isn't the jump from $1m to 6,7,8 or 9 still a big jump?


Err no, they only have to be better than the teams in their division. Aren't you familiar with how promotion and relegation works?

And the jump from $1M to $6M is pretty easy when its all accounted for with TV money. Add in extra sponsors from the additional exposure and you have a team with a comparable budget to the Mariners or Roar....

[RAM]

For Plague's benefit, this is how I would envisage a 2nd division:

There are currently 90 NPL clubs in Australia.

Tenders would be put out and the best of these, performance and facilities wise, as well as ensuring a geographical spread would be placed into the second division i.e something like this

1. Canberra Olympic (ACT Champions - have their own stadium)
2. Sydney Utd (NSW Champions, own stadium)
3. Blacktown City (NSW R/u, excellent facilities)
4. Edgeworth (NNSW Champions)
5. Brisbane Strikers (QLD Champions, own stadium)
6. Gold Coast City (QLD r/u - could use GC stadium?)
7. Adelaide City (SA Champions, own stadium)
8. Devonport (TAS champions)
9. Bentleigh Greens (VIC Champions)
10. Heidelberg (VIC R/u, own stadium)
11. South Melbourne (VIC 3rd, own stadium)
12. Perth SC (WA Champions, own stadium)
13. Wollongong Wolves (geographical importance and facilities)



Other potentials given their facilities and past success: Melbourne Knights, Canberra FC, Bonnyrigg, Sydney Olympic, APIA, Hakoah, Hamilton, Broadmeadow, West Adelaide, South Hobart, ECU

[stopper2]

Err no, they only have to be better than the teams in their division. Aren't you familiar with how promotion and relegation works?

And the jump from $1M to $6M is pretty easy when its all accounted for with TV money. Add in extra sponsors from the additional exposure and you have a team with a comparable budget to the Mariners or Roar....
This

Recently read that with the new TV deal there have been estimates that the salary cap could increase substantially too.

[stopper2]

For Plague's benefit, this is how I would envisage a 2nd division:

There are currently 90 NPL clubs in Australia.

Tenders would be put out and the best of these, performance and facilities wise, as well as ensuring a geographical spread would be placed into the second division i.e something like this

1. Canberra Olympic (ACT Champions - have their own stadium)
2. Sydney Utd (NSW Champions, own stadium)
3. Blacktown City (NSW R/u, excellent facilities)
4. Edgeworth (NNSW Champions)
5. Brisbane Strikers (QLD Champions, own stadium)
6. Gold Coast City (QLD r/u - could use GC stadium?)
7. Adelaide City (SA Champions, own stadium)
8. Devonport (TAS champions)
9. Bentleigh Greens (VIC Champions)
10. Heidelberg (VIC R/u, own stadium)
11. South Melbourne (VIC 3rd, own stadium)
12. Perth SC (WA Champions, own stadium)
13. Wollongong Wolves (geographical importance and facilities)



Other potentials given their facilities and past success: Melbourne Knights, Canberra FC, Bonnyrigg, Sydney Olympic, APIA, Hakoah, Hamilton, Broadmeadow, West Adelaide, South Hobart, ECU

I have seen a similiar plan too and even ones where there are two conferences (a Northern and a Southern) which would obviously reduce travelling costs.
That's the thing with including established clubs, you would be able to hit the ground running sooner rather then later. Whereas if you start a process of trying to create more new franchises from nothing, this could years to get up and running.

[Jetmaster]

Why should this matter in a multicultural country like Australia in the 21st century where we have a foreign flag (the Union Jack) as part of our flag?....just sayin:rof:

I keep saying again and again that true Australian football fans like us on here will have NO problem with these clubs getting in. We've lived it before.

And again I say the issue is general public perception....I guarantee Channel Nein would report "Greek backed club Sth Melbourne win A-League spot". Australia is becoming very xenophobic.

[Nou Camp]

Err no, they only have to be better than the teams in their division. Aren't you familiar with how promotion and relegation works?

And the jump from $1M to $6M is pretty easy when its all accounted for with TV money. Add in extra sponsors from the additional exposure and you have a team with a comparable budget to the Mariners or Roar....

what happens to a club that's in the a league that's turnover is $6mil but then next season has to operate on a budget of $1

[The Camel]

For Plague's benefit, this is how I would envisage a 2nd division:

There are currently 90 NPL clubs in Australia.

Tenders would be put out and the best of these, performance and facilities wise, as well as ensuring a geographical spread would be placed into the second division i.e something like this

1. Canberra Olympic (ACT Champions - have their own stadium)
2. Sydney Utd (NSW Champions, own stadium)
3. Blacktown City (NSW R/u, excellent facilities)
4. Edgeworth (NNSW Champions)
5. Brisbane Strikers (QLD Champions, own stadium)
6. Gold Coast City (QLD r/u - could use GC stadium?)
7. Adelaide City (SA Champions, own stadium)
8. Devonport (TAS champions)
9. Bentleigh Greens (VIC Champions)
10. Heidelberg (VIC R/u, own stadium)
11. South Melbourne (VIC 3rd, own stadium)
12. Perth SC (WA Champions, own stadium)
13. Wollongong Wolves (geographical importance and facilities)



Other potentials given their facilities and past success: Melbourne Knights, Canberra FC, Bonnyrigg, Sydney Olympic, APIA, Hakoah, Hamilton, Broadmeadow, West Adelaide, South Hobart, ECU

Other Geographical significant clubs would be FNQ Heat, NQ Fury, Ipswich area (Western Pride?), Sunny Coast, Macarthur Rams/Campbelltown, Sutherland Sharks, Dandenong, Geelong. Also I know you put Devonport in there coz they won the Tas league but the town is 30,000. It would be like Orange getting a team. If Tassie come in you would have to base it in Hobart, if You use South Hobart then so be it.

[plague]

Err no, they only have to be better than the teams in their division. Aren't you familiar with how promotion and relegation works?


oh my dear lord you can't toss out the 'do you even internet bruh' when you haven't read the post properly.

But ill give you a pass on this one because you're not a silly person, you read it wrong.

To explain:
In season 1 of promotion/relegation one of the A-League teams gets relegated correct?
OK lets say its the Jets (because the Jets are trash), and lets say The Melbourne Knights get promoted.
So we now have one former A-League team in the 2nd div in year 2 yeah?

So now the likes of the rest of the 2nd div will be at a distinct competitive disadvantage if Mr Lee decides to continue spending his (seemingly) vast resources.
So yes the rest of the 2nd div will be in a tougher position to compete in year 2.

Do you understand what i was getting at now or no?

As far as the Melbourne Knights are concerned (now playing in the A-League), what are your thoughts on the following:
What stadium should they use?
What licence fee should they pay (or should they pay one to enter div 2 and how much)?.
What makes you so confident that they will be able to within one year (although its prob 6 months between end of season 1 and 2) be able to gain increased corporate support and increased revenue streams from other areas? Because in the 10 years of the A-League we've seen club fail time after time to break even especially in areas outside of capital cities.
Also, where does this $5-6m TV money figure come from? Everything I've read points to a figure closer to $2.5-$2.75m. Thats leaves a lot of tin rattling to get the books balanced.


ok heres a quote from the ffa 2015 tv deal:

This season FFA will deliver $2.6 million per club which covers the current salary cap as part of the old deal with clubs forced to spend 90 per cent ($2.340 million) for up to 23 players.

[plague]

For Plague's benefit, this is how I would envisage a 2nd division:

Tenders would be put out and the best of these, performance and facilities wise, as well as ensuring a geographical spread would be placed into the second division i.e something like this

ta.

Can you put forward your argument for clubs in the 2nd div being allowed to have sub standard* facilities when the original teams had to be compliant from day 1?



*according to A-League criteria

[Macca]

I guess one possibility for existing ethnic clubs to move upward into a second division or higher would be if, upon establishment of this division, these existing clubs gained newfound support locally, not just from the traditional supporter base. And from this were able to shake off the "impression" of exclusivity that many may have felt towards it previously. Another way of saying "build it and they will come" I spose. Some local fans may not want to give up time to watch an NPL team, but might be more encouraged to view a better spectacle of nationwide teams and higher quality football.

[plague]

another interesting part of the deep dive is that there are quite a few references to exactly how South Melbourne are trying to get into the A-League.
*They were part of a consortium (hmmm just like some on here have suggested) to be the 2nd Melbourne team, but the bid was rejected in favour of the Heart.
*They tried to buy into the Melbourne Heart (before Citeh group took over) but made clear no change to stripe/colours etc would be made to the existing Heart identity.
*They tried to buy into the Mariners when things were falling apart but Charlesworth got his house in order and maintained control.


A small sample size of their intentions but this says to me:
They are happy to be part of a bigger group in order to join the big time (probably realising they can't do it all themselves.
They are happy to be part of the A-League if it means giving up their 'identity'.

This type of attitude and approach is exactly how i would like the 2nd div to be constructed.

[&1gest]

From foxsports
Northern Fury FC chairman Rabieh Krayem’s A-League expansion, promotion and relegation proposal


http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/a-league/northern-fury-fc-chairman-rabieh-krayems-aleague-expansion-promotion-and-relegation-proposal/news-story/5298f5904e4b54f0d908258831c8ea74

[plague]

From foxsports
Northern Fury FC chairman Rabieh Krayem’s A-League expansion, promotion and relegation proposal

Cheers for posting that.
See now this is a dude who has done some thinking (and has obviously been in the trenches).
I agree with about 90% of his plan (and no, no plan can ever be perfect).
I still have issues surrounding the stadium compliance and licence fees the original A-League clubs had to abide by, and obviously I have a problem with clubs who won't look big picture.

But heck, anyone at least throwing up some viable solutions gets my vote.

It will only be a matter of time before Couscous abandons us to become Nth Qld Furies No#1 fan.

[The Postman]

I very much doubt the current HAL clubs will agree to forgo their guarantee of top division football for the introduction of promotion/relegation. Unless there is some kind of $$ encentive.

The solution that the Fury CEO has presented solves that problem. Having an established 2nd Division with promotion to the HAL based off meeting criteria and possibly winning the 2nd Div until the current licence agreements end.

Regarding what teams should be included, you have to think about what is the best option.

A - Clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United growing to a 10k membership base and meeting the $$$ and facility requirements of a HAL/HBL team.

Or

B - Starting brand new teams in these same areas from scratch with the billionaire/consortium paying the bills.

B worked at the start of the HAL because there was nothing else, and now 11 years later the deep rooted connections have been formed with the new clubs. Even less time for WSW, but the point is, there was a need for freshness back then.

There isn't such a need right now, except of course in a few areas where they are crying out for a national team - Canberra United for example, and they already have a small base with the WPL team.

I think a mixed approach is key, support the high achieving NPL teams to reach HAL and fill the holes in the key areas - Canberra, Geelong etc.

[plague]

Regarding what teams should be included, you have to think about what is the best option.

A - Clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United growing to a 10k membership base and meeting the $$$ and facility requirements of a HAL/HBL team.

Or

B - Starting brand new teams in these same areas from scratch with the billionaire/consortium paying the bills.


good question, and the counter to that could always be "team X only has X members despite history/exposure etc etc when a plastic team like wanderers has way more members due to the model used to create them.

From what I've read South Melbourne are keen as mustard to be involved, and don't seem too hung up on colours/badges etc. Surely the FFA could mash them into the 2nd div and still have it done their way.

[Premy]

Back to expansion.

The way I see it.
Pro/Rel is a long way off at least 20+ years, but we need to start laying the foundation for the future and stop thinking in 4-5 year cycles. If any of you have time look up the 100 year plan of Japanese football. In short the JFA in the early 90's set the goals to have 100 professional clubs and win the World Cup sometime in the next 100 years. Just over 20 years has past and they are already over half of their goal for 100 professional clubs.

The Second Division needs to be established ASAP.
From that the A-League can have it's expansion from promoting second division clubs, promotion based on not only on results but also criteria and geography. The FFA can identify clubs/regions it wishes to have in the A-League and said clubs can use the second division to ready itself for the A-League. All the while the remaining second division clubs can use the time to grow and prepare for the eventual implementation of Pro/Rel once all second division are A-League ready.

It just needs some forethought and correct planning but it needs to happen. We need to stop concentrating on 2016-2020 and start thinking were should football be in 2050 and how do we get it there.

It's like Rabieh reads the foz just saying.

[Premy]

True, there are NPL teams around that would definitely be looked at in a favourable light to go into a second division, but it would be because they are in a favourable location and are not mono ethnic. Wollongong Wolves and Sutherland Sharks are an example of a team that could realistically go straight into a second division. Gold Coast City, FNQ Heat and NQ Fury as well as the Strikers and maybe Western Pride in Qld. Even Dandenong Thunder in Vic as that area's population is expanding like the Campbelltown/Macarthur area of Sydney
How is it possible that you wrote exactly what I was thinking?

[380]

Cheers for posting that.
See now this is a dude who has done some thinking (and has obviously been in the trenches).
I agree with about 90% of his plan (and no, no plan can ever be perfect).
I still have issues surrounding the stadium compliance and licence fees the original A-League clubs had to abide by, and obviously I have a problem with clubs who won't look big picture.

But heck, anyone at least throwing up some viable solutions gets my vote.



It will only be a matter of time before Couscous abandons us to become Nth Qld Furies No#1 fan.

And coach, I reckon Gary still fancies another crack.

[RAM]

what happens to a club that's in the a league that's turnover is $6mil but then next season has to operate on a budget of $1

Same as what happens in the Championship.

The players are offloaded in favour of cheaper ones from the NPL, often the offloaded players go to promoted clubs.

Bigger clubs, ala Juventus or Newcastle Utd retain the players from the 1st division and have more of a chance of being promoted straight back up.

It happens in 99% of leagues in the world, only us and the US are the exceptions.

[RAM]

Other Geographical significant clubs would be FNQ Heat, NQ Fury, Ipswich area (Western Pride?), Sunny Coast, Macarthur Rams/Campbelltown, Sutherland Sharks, Dandenong, Geelong. Also I know you put Devonport in there coz they won the Tas league but the town is 30,000. It would be like Orange getting a team. If Tassie come in you would have to base it in Hobart, if You use South Hobart then so be it.

Villareal is from a town of 50,000 and play Champions league regularly enough.

If you're good enough, you're big enough.

[RAM]

To explain:
In season 1 of promotion/relegation one of the A-League teams gets relegated correct?
OK lets say its the Jets (because the Jets are trash), and lets say The Melbourne Knights get promoted.
So we now have one former A-League team in the 2nd div in year 2 yeah?

So now the likes of the rest of the 2nd div will be at a distinct competitive disadvantage if Mr Lee decides to continue spending his (seemingly) vast resources.
So yes the rest of the 2nd div will be in a tougher position to compete in year 2.

Do you understand what i was getting at now or no?
If a HAL club can sustain its spending on relegation and get promoted back then so what? This is what happens all over the world. Look at when Juventus were relegated but retained most of their squad.


As far as the Melbourne Knights are concerned (now playing in the A-League), what are your thoughts on the following:
What stadium should they use?
What licence fee should they pay (or should they pay one to enter div 2 and how much)?.
What makes you so confident that they will be able to within one year (although its prob 6 months between end of season 1 and 2) be able to gain increased corporate support and increased revenue streams from other areas? Because in the 10 years of the A-League we've seen club fail time after time to break even especially in areas outside of capital cities.
Also, where does this $5-6m TV money figure come from? Everything I've read points to a figure closer to $2.5-$2.75m. Thats leaves a lot of tin rattling to get the books balanced.ok heres a quote from the ffa 2015 tv deal:
1. The Knights own their stadium - they only need small crowds of about 4000+ to be solvent.
2. Licence fees shouldn't apply imo, or if they have to, then it should be vastly reduced for a second tier competition. Say $500K.
3. Because these clubs have done it before, most have the know how and its sink or swim. If a club can't do it (which happens from time to time around the world) then another will step into their place - ala Portsmouth and Blackpool and Rangers and et al
4. The figures were based upon what I was hearing about the new deal. If its say $2.5M now, that a lot of wages covered straight up. Most of the clubs have their own stadiums so each how game becomes a profit making exercise in terms of gate and food even with small crowds. Corporate sponsorship would easily reach $500K-$1M conservatively, when they have national exposure and FTA+ Fox TV exposure. The reality is that regional clubs will struggle, but that's the challenge for us. We have to be better run than clubs from bigger centres - reality of life.

[The Camel]

Villareal is from a town of 50,000 and play Champions league regularly enough.

If you're good enough, you're big enough.

Yeah but it is the main centre of a small province of near 600,000 people. Comparing Devonport in Tassie to Villareal is no like for like.

[RAM]

ta.

Can you put forward your argument for clubs in the 2nd div being allowed to have sub standard* facilities when the original teams had to be compliant from day 1?



*according to A-League criteria

Its the 2nd division. The requirements should not be as stringent as that of the HAL. You could delay promotion for say 2-3 years and include conditional promotion based upon a facilities criteria ala South Korea as well. There are options. But the reality is that most of these clubs have half decent facilities already, and given the incentive to, may be able to improve upon them in due course.

HAL clubs are not profitable for the most part due to have to lease stadia and lose income streams from the sale of food/drinks. Most of the 2nd tier clubs I have put forward do not have this issue. Yes they are not world class venues, but they are less of a solvency risk than most HAL teams - a Jets fan should be acutely aware of this....

[RAM]

Yeah but it is the main centre of a small province of near 600,000 people. Comparing Devonport in Tassie to Villareal is no like for like.

Really? Tassie is what 500,000 and if they had one team to support in the HAL wouldn't it be semi-comparable? I'm not suggesting for a moment that Devonport or South Hobart are going to be regularly playing ACL or even HAL finals, but they do have a broader supporter base opportunity than a mere 30,000.

[The Camel]

Really? Tassie is what 500,000 and if they had one team to support in the HAL wouldn't it be semi-comparable? I'm not suggesting for a moment that Devonport or South Hobart are going to be regularly playing ACL or even HAL finals, but they do have a broader supporter base opportunity than a mere 30,000.

Geographical size difference is massive. Devonport to Hobart is 3 1/2 drive. You drive that long From anywhere in Spain and your talking half the country. If you have a Tassie team it has to be in Hobart which has 220k and roughly half the population. Anywhere else and there is no point. Place is much bigger than people think

[Nou Camp]

Same as what happens in the Championship.

The players are offloaded in favour of cheaper ones from the NPL, often the offloaded players go to promoted clubs.

Bigger clubs, ala Juventus or Newcastle Utd retain the players from the 1st division and have more of a chance of being promoted straight back up.

It happens in 99% of leagues in the world, only us and the US are the exceptions.

turnovers reduce dropping divisions yes of course, im not that naïve
but they wouldn't be dropping over 80% as what some people suggest going from current a league turnovers of around $6mil to 2nd division with a turnover of $1mil

[plague]

If a HAL club can sustain its spending on relegation and get promoted back then so what? This is what happens all over the world. Look at when Juventus were relegated but retained most of their squad.


ok, so now you get what I'm saying, and you seem to agree.
Lets move on, theres more to unpack.