The Politics/Religion/Conspiracies Deathmatch Thread

[My2BobsWorth]

Oh I'm gonna enjoy hearing how you'd pull this one off.
Please explain.

I've told you mine, now tell me yours, should be interesting Mr smartarse.

[plague]

I've told you mine, now tell me yours, should be interesting Mr smartarse.

cool cool.

So we are talking about the 'poles and wires' yeah?
Go look at the Post Office and see where holding on to a govt funded 'asset' too long gets you.
Govt obviously thinks that assets like poles and wires/ports/generators etc have a shelf life and if they can get good money for them now to fund further economic development and create more govt 'assets' (that then can then generate more income from) then they should do it.

Going off Labors numbers the 'poles and wires' generate $1.7b per year for the govt. leasing 49% of that means they 'lose' $850m per annum but get $20b up front (remembering the Govt will still get that other $850m per year from the remaining 51%).

Say the advancement in technology of renewable energies (not to mention the Nuclear debate)determines that traditional means of delivering power to your home makes the reliance on these 'poles and wires' less important and therefore less valuable? Do we still make the $1.7 per annum from them in the future? who knows?

What? could that really happen? oh wait thats exactly whats happening to the Post Office. you think anyone 30 years ago would dare have thought that we could send correspondence without going through the govt controlled monopoly? no way.

State govt is striking while the iron is hot. i can see where they are coming from.

Also, considering probably 99% of your daily interactions are with products/services provided by the private sector I think its safe to assume you have survived the rigours of dealing with them yeah?

Im sure dealing with one more "big bad business" in your day wont hurt.

Of course once Skynet gets hold of me feel free to mock and bellow to the world 'I told you so'.

Cheers,
Plague
aka Mr Smartarse.


(Anyway as Dunster said we are all living in a vacuum where right is left and left is right so whats it matter yeah?).

[The Dunster]

oi dunst dawg

what's your position on the libs position on superannuation?

yer man paul keating had a spray in the SMH today - i know he's right on one bit, that capital is available like never before to developers in this country, so surely the current system works (however is open to people exploiting the juicy mango....)

seems a bit redundant to let people get to their super early in order to put deposits down to properties they will never be able to afford - but in turn this keeps the debt in the system forever, right?

I'm not a fan of Superannuation.
For those on modest incomes they will get **** all when they retire and receive nothing in the way of tax concessions either.
Those on decent incomes though get massive tax concessions and as such the benefits for them make Super a good thing to have.
People should have the choice of having Super but it should not be compulsory.
When you look at how house prices basically doubled overnight when Team Howard changed the rules on property and Super Annuation the solution to the current crisis [for many] would be to remove the changes made around 2001/2.
The problem with that is that it will be catastrophic for those with mortgages and the entire financial planning industry - not mention anyone looking to sell a property for far less than they paid.

The other solution would be to tax the living **** out of khunts that own multiple properties - land tax doesn't work in its current form because there are simply to many ways for these khunts to weasel out of it.

Because until property speculation becomes or is made undesirable the future is not looking too bright for anyone - including the oligarchs.

[plague]

Hey Dunster, whilst we are doing Q&A why do you think that negative gearing is still available?
It seems like a slam dunk policy to overturn to get people out of the property speculation game (which I hate as well) but no pollies go near it.
Is there any economic benefit to the country by having it or are pollies scared of upsettlng the middle/upper class (and losing votes) by getting rid of it?

[Skirt Boy]

I'm not a fan of Superannuation.
For those on modest incomes they will get **** all when they retire and receive nothing in the way of tax concessions either.
Those on decent incomes though get massive tax concessions and as such the benefits for them make Super a good thing to have.
People should have the choice of having Super but it should not be compulsory.
When you look at how house prices basically doubled overnight when Team Howard changed the rules on property and Super Annuation the solution to the current crisis [for many] would be to remove the changes made around 2001/2.
The problem with that is that it will be catastrophic for those with mortgages and the entire financial planning industry - not mention anyone looking to sell a property for far less than they paid.

The other solution would be to tax the living **** out of khunts that own multiple properties - land tax doesn't work in its current form because there are simply to many ways for these khunts to weasel out of it.

Because until property speculation becomes or is made undesirable the future is not looking too bright for anyone - including the oligarchs.


Don't worry Australia is heading towards a property meltdown big time.

[The Dunster]

Hey Dunster, whilst we are doing Q&A why do you think that negative gearing is still available?
It seems like a slam dunk policy to overturn to get people out of the property speculation game (which I hate as well) but no pollies go near it.
Is there any economic benefit to the country by having it or are pollies scared of upsettlng the middle/upper class (and losing votes) by getting rid of it?

They tried to remove it and the result was that in the short term rents went up. Politicians panicked and Negative gearing returned.
The changes to Super though have been far more detrimental than negative gearing ever was. House prices pretty much doubled overnight. Great news for those that owned them, not so great for those that didn't.
With respect to votes a government only needs to satisfy the top 5% or so of income earners to be elected. This is because they control the media and as such can pretty much determine how the other 95% vote by brainwashing them with misinformation.

[Blackmac79]

Go look at the Post Office and see where holding on to a govt funded 'asset' too long gets you.


Worth noting that Australia Post is currently profitable.

[Pico]

Worth noting that Australia Post is currently profitable.

Not really.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-23/australia-post-forecasts-loss-as-profit-drops-56pc/6215334

[plague]

Worth noting that Australia Post is currently profitable.

Yeah nah.
Nor is it 'worth' anywhere near what it was.
That was my point.

[Blackmac79]

Not really.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-23/australia-post-forecasts-loss-as-profit-drops-56pc/6215334

Looking at a single service that is provided, one that will almost always run at a loss unless people decided it is worthwhile paying several $ per letter.

Point is that the whole thing is subsidy free, and many "franchisees" are turning profits.

Agree it's not what it was though. Just don't buy the government hype around this sudden urgent need to sell the thing off

[plague]

Looking at a single service that is provided, one that will almost always run at a loss unless people decided it is worthwhile paying several $ per letter.

Point is that the whole thing is subsidy free, and many "franchisees" are turning profits.

Agree it's not what it was though. Just don't buy the government hype around this sudden urgent need to sell the thing off

Yeah but overall the service is inefficient, hence why its losing money. You cant pick out the good bits and ignore the shitty bits.

BUT

you cant cut services to country areas etc that rely on it just because a particular arm of the business doesnt run a profit. and parts of the service (namely the growth in the area of small parcel deliveries with the explosion of online shopping) are sitting there waiting to be run smarter to help the business run better.

SOLUTION:

bring in private enterprise to encourage efficiency and innovation (sadly, Govt departments just arent set up to run like that) BUT maintain control to make sure essential services arent cut.

HOW DO WE ACHIEVE THIS BALANCE????

I dunno, maybe lease off 49% and maintain control the other 51%.


WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK IT???????

oh wait, someone already did.

[My2BobsWorth]

cool cool.

So we are talking about the 'poles and wires' yeah?
Go look at the Post Office and see where holding on to a govt funded 'asset' too long gets you.
Govt obviously thinks that assets like poles and wires/ports/generators etc have a shelf life and if they can get good money for them now to fund further economic development and create more govt 'assets' (that then can then generate more income from) then they should do it.

Going off Labors numbers the 'poles and wires' generate $1.7b per year for the govt. leasing 49% of that means they 'lose' $850m per annum but get $20b up front (remembering the Govt will still get that other $850m per year from the remaining 51%).

Say the advancement in technology of renewable energies (not to mention the Nuclear debate)determines that traditional means of delivering power to your home makes the reliance on these 'poles and wires' less important and therefore less valuable? Do we still make the $1.7 per annum from them in the future? who knows?

What? could that really happen? oh wait thats exactly whats happening to the Post Office. you think anyone 30 years ago would dare have thought that we could send correspondence without going through the govt controlled monopoly? no way.

State govt is striking while the iron is hot. i can see where they are coming from.

Also, considering probably 99% of your daily interactions are with products/services provided by the private sector I think its safe to assume you have survived the rigours of dealing with them yeah?

Im sure dealing with one more "big bad business" in your day wont hurt.

Of course once Skynet gets hold of me feel free to mock and bellow to the world 'I told you so'.

Cheers,
Plague
aka Mr Smartarse.


(Anyway as Dunster said we are all living in a vacuum where right is left and left is right so whats it matter yeah?).

Can you even read proper homie? You keep prattling on about poles.Obviously you need the might of the sheep quiz gang behind you.

[My2BobsWorth]

The Australian government has absolutely no budget constraint in terms of spending in Australian dollars.

In simple terms the government is able to purchase all goods and services available that are denominated in Australian Dollars.

Learn how to construct a stock flow consistent macroeconomic model and then get back to us.

Obviously you did half a home economics course and failed. There was a supplementary course that went with that, the " how not to sound like a total arsehole" course, which you must have skipped.

[plague]

Can you even read proper homie? You keep prattling on about poles.Obviously you need the might of the sheep quiz gang behind you.

should i spell it 'powls' so it makes more sense to you?

here to help.

[plague]

Obviously you did half a home economics course and failed. There was a supplementary course that went with that, the " how not to sound like a total arsehole" course, which you must have skipped.

I enjoy it very much when someone responds to a post they dont understand by making a fart noise with their mouth.


In other news, how is your sewing and cooking Dunster?

[My2BobsWorth]

I enjoy it very much when someone responds to a post they dont understand by making a fart noise with their mouth.


In other news, how is your sewing and cooking Dunster?

As opposed to the slurping sound on Dunnys dick?

[plague]

As opposed to the slurping sound on Dunnys dick?

Just be sure you're sensitive to others when publicly displaying your fantasies. Some people aren't the same persuasion as you and it could make them feel uncomfortable.

So we're back to gay marriage now? I'm a supporter, so at least we agree on that.

Anyway the mods will be here in s sec telling us all to pipe down so unless you have anymore homophobic slurs and general ignorance to spout lets get back on topic hey.

Cheers.

[GazFish35]

The sooner this election is over the better.
Hot tip.
Doesn't matter who you vote for, you always end up with a politician.

[MFKS]

Can we get back to talking religion again???:rof:

[plague]

The sooner this election is over the better.
Hot tip.
Doesn't matter who you vote for, you always end up with a politician.
State?
I actually think this one has been quite civil.
Even the scare campaign ads are at least watchable (except the Nurses one, **** the Nurses Union).
At least both sides seem have some policies to digest.

[Jeterpool]

I often log into this thread thinking it might have turned into a thread like the "tennis thread". Alas no

[MFKS]

I often log into this thread thinking it might have turned into a thread like the "tennis thread". Alas no

The day photos of Jacquie Lambie are flap material is the day to end it all

[militiamon]

SOLUTION:

bring in private enterprise to encourage efficiency and innovation (sadly, Govt departments just arent set up to run like that) BUT maintain control to make sure essential services arent cut.

You're 100% right provided that the private enterprise is more efficient and innovative. Is that a universal truth?
Genuine question since I know sfa about this area, but I'm assuming there have been some studies done on it.

Also, there are some obvious benefits to the government/people in retaining such assets, as you yourself point out with the example of a letters service for country peeps.
The position that pro-nationalisation people would hold is that there are some essential services in society which, while expensive, are essential to be retained so that there is a greater level of control, to stop inequality, make delivery easier etc.

[GazFish35]

the example of a letters service for country peeps.


Damn country people expecting govt to support their "lifestyle choices"

[plague]

Also, there are some obvious benefits to the government/people in retaining such assets, as you yourself point out with the example of a letters service for country peeps.
The position that pro-nationalisation people would hold is that there are some essential services in society which, while expensive, are essential to be retained so that there is a greater level of control, to stop inequality, make delivery easier etc.

Agree 100%.
This is why I'm a big fan of the 49/51 split.
The best of both worlds.
Govts should always be willing to embrace the private sectors strength whilst ALWAYS remembering (and having the power) to do their jobs, which is act in the best interests of ALL Australians.

[plague]

Damn country people expecting govt to support their "lifestyle choices"

Oh man I was waiting for someone to go there.
So what's your thoughts? Ray-cess, or not ray-cess?

[The Dunster]

You're 100% right provided that the private enterprise is more efficient

and innovative. Is that a universal truth?
Genuine question since I know sfa about this area, but

I'm assuming there have been some studies done on it.

Also, there are some obvious benefits to the

government/people in retaining such assets, as you yourself point out with the example of a letters

service for country peeps.
The position that pro-nationalisation people would hold is that there are

some essential services in society which, while expensive, are essential to be retained so that

there is a greater level of control, to stop inequality, make delivery easier etc.

Arguing

that private sector is more efficient than government sector is about as scientific as arguing the

earth is flat.

The evidence suggests that the private sector is less efficient and by a considerable

margin. The reason being self imposed compliance regimes and the ability to become insolvent.
Government red tape is minimal in comparison and insolvency is impossible for a country that is a

monopolist issuer of its own money such as Australia.

The Abbott Hockey Regime found this out the

hard way when a report they commissioned completely backfired on them in October 2014.Here is a

small snippet from the report.


… by laying down the law – imposing rules on ourselves – in

areas as diverse as human resources (HR), information technology (IT), finance, legal, marketing

and executive governance.

The time required for employees to comply with self-imposed rules has

become a crippling burden. Middle managers and senior executives are chalking up 8.9 hours a week

complying with the rules corporates set for themselves, with other staff spending 6.4 hours.




http://www2.deloitte.com/au/en/pages/building-lucky-country/articles/get-out-of-your-own-

way.html [ Nothing in the report surprised anyone with any understanding of economics]

Moving on -

Think about this.

If Aggregate demand is at a level not compatible with full employment - How can

the private sector increase aggregate demand to restore full employment ?
Answer is it can't.
Government on the other hand can increase aggregate demand by simply increasing spending.
They don't

need to print money, dip into any prior savings, or even increase taxes to do so..

Get away from

thinking taxes fund government spending and that government borrow money to fund deficits and you

will be a lot closer to how the economy actually operates in the 21st century.

Yes, it's that

simple.

Another area of inefficiency in the private sector is wage determination. There is

absolutely no relationship between wages / incomes and contribution to society or indeed

efficiency. I'll provide a link below for you to investigate if you like.

http://www.neweconomics.org/sites/neweconomics.org/files/A_Bit_Rich.pdf

[plague]

Arguing that private sector is more efficient than government sector is about as scientific as arguing the earth is flat.

The evidence suggests that the private sector is less efficient and by a considerable margin. The reason being self imposed compliance regimes and the ability to become insolvent.
Government red tape is minimal in comparison and insolvency is impossible for a country that is a monopolist issuer of its own money such as Australia.

Think about this.

If Aggregate demand is at a level not compatible with full employment - How can the private sector increase aggregate demand to restore full employment ?
Answer is it can't.
Government on the other hand can increase aggregate demand by simply increasing spending.
They don't need to print money, dip into any prior savings, or even increase taxes to do so..

Get away from thinking taxes fund government spending and that government borrow money to fund deficits and you will be a lot closer to how the economy actually operates in the 21st century.

Yes, it's that simple.

Yeah your theory is fine but saying that a Govt is better at running a business because they can move the goalposts whenever they please doesn't make them 'better' (it does make them smarter though doesn't it).

All I can say is that based on my life experience companies make way better choices when investing their own money versus spending someone else's.

Look at local govt, each dept is given a budget each year and their goal and culture is not to spend the money wisely, or to save money where possible. But the culture is to spend ALL of it regardless as that way they get the same (or more) budget the following year. The public sector for the most part get 'punished' for saving money.
And when every dept wants more money the council oblidges by raising revenue through rates (that's why NCC ratepayers are about to get slugged with a big rate rise).
This is exactly like you describe but that's not running a more efficient business by any stretch of the imagination.

[The Dunster]

Agree 100%.
This is why I'm a big fan of the 49/51 split.
The best of both worlds.
Govts should always be willing to embrace the private sectors strength whilst ALWAYS remembering (and having the power) to do their jobs, which is act in the best interests of ALL Australians.

By strengths are you talking about the ability of the private sector to inflict self imposed compliance regimes on to their workers which kill productivity stone dead ? Or are you referring to the private sectors ability to become insolvent due to a lack of aggregate demand or indeed speculative practices gone wrong such as in the case of the GFC ?

[plague]

By strengths are you talking about the ability of the private sector to inflict self imposed compliance regimes on to their workers which kill productivity stone dead ? Or are you referring to the private sectors ability to become insolvent due to a lack of aggregate demand or indeed speculative practices gone wrong such as in the case of the GFC ?

Oh come on, saying all companies should be run like the public sector is absurd.
Private companies work on the rules imposed on them.
Govts make their own rules.
Not a level playing field.

[The Dunster]

If we believe the shit we hear from business leaders or the media we won't be learning too much about how the economy operates.

Neo-liberalism is a floored ideology that reasons from axiomatic assumptions that simply do not exist such as government budget constraints, loanable funds frameworks, Ricardian Equivalence... and so on.

It takes tens of thousands of hours to learn economics and the idea that people can roll in and read a few shitty textbooks or even get an undergraduate degree and think they understand it all is laughable at best - and yet we see it in the newspapers and on the television everyday.

The worst lot are probably the bank economists. These khunts are ****ing clueless on anything economic and instead rely on capturing regulators to make money more so than competing in any free market environment.

Not attacking you either plague because you are one of the genuine nice guys on the form. But when it comes to Neo-Liberalism I always feel compelled to stick a pin into the balloon

[plague]

Nah, no offence taken at all.
Mrs Plague has a business degree (and another one but I can never remember it), I own my own business and have previously run businesses for others. This is a much debated topic around the dinner table.
When it comes to all this stuff I'm the first to admit I don't know it all but I've yet to meet anyone who does. By learning from others I get better, that's my goal.
No system is perfect, or else we'd all be living with it.
I'm glad I live in a society that rewards endeavour and innovation. I'm also glad I live in a society that is always under pressure to do the right thing by people less fortunate.


And speaking of less fortunate the Jets have kicked off. Time to go.

[Grimario]

So... It turns out I haven't changed my enrolled address with AEC and have Ti vote this month.

How difficult is postal or electronic voting?

[plague]

So... It turns out I haven't changed my enrolled address with AEC and have Ti vote this month.

How difficult is postal or electronic voting?

Piece of piss actually.
I did the last by election as we were away on business. you just register through the aec website then they send you notice when you can vote (usually a few days before) then it takes 2 minutes and you're done.

[Blackmac79]

I think that I would vote for the party who's policy it is to remove the states.

So much money and time is wasted in their inefficiency.

[plague]

I think that I would vote for the party who's policy it is to remove the states.

Legit.

[q-money]

why should nsw have to fund backwards dumps like tasmania who contribute nothing to federal wealth?

[MFKS]

why should nsw have to fund backwards dumps like tasmania who contribute nothing to federal wealth?
No different to regional NSW funding Sydney and getting **** all back locally for their efforts

[northern_swan]

I think that I would vote for the party who's policy it is to remove the states.

So much money and time is wasted in their inefficiency.

As if that would happen. Too many people with snouts in the trough looking after themselves in the corridors of power would actually have to earn a decent living if that happened

[plague]

why should nsw have to fund backwards dumps like tasmania who contribute nothing to federal wealth?

I was kind assuming that we'd forget Tassie was there and pretend we don't know them.

cancel all flights, sink that ****ing ferry thing.
Boom, it's like it never existed.

[plague]

As if that would happen. Too many people with snouts in the trough looking after themselves in the corridors of power would actually have to earn a decent living if that happened

Obviously this is the sticking point.
I'm no expert on constitutional law but does anyone know if the states need to be involved or if it's a straight up federal referendum style deal?

[The Dunster]

Obviously this is the sticking point.
I'm no expert on constitutional law but does anyone know if the states need to be involved or if it's a straight up federal referendum style deal?

You won't get an answer without the Full Bench of the High Court assessing it. It would be an absolute shit fight given the passing of the Australia Act in 1986 still doesn't entirely clear up the role of the queen in such matters.

My guess is that nobody could answer this question.

[Blackmac79]

Surely the ideal time would be whenever we decide to have the Republic debate/referendum seeing as we have to rewrite the constitution then anyway

[The Dunster]

I'd only vote for a Republic if Joel Griffiths was president.

[Skirt Boy]

Obviously this is the sticking point.
I'm no expert on constitutional law but does anyone know if the states need to be involved or if it's a straight up federal referendum style deal?

My understanding is that Australia is more like the German Confederation then a true nation in it's own right. A group of soverign states grouped together for common purposes. Really unlike any other nation afaik our states wield considerable power if not more then the federal government.

Our system is good because if one branch of government does things not in the interest of the nation a state can act in such a way to nullify a lot of what the federal government is doing and vice versa.

[MFKS]

Surely the ideal time would be whenever we decide to have the Republic debate/referendum seeing as we have to rewrite the constitution then anyway

We did have a referendum on that in the late 90s anyway

Just showed how thick ****s are in this country.

The status quo was kept coz ****s somehow thought it was ridiculously important that they get to vote for the president and wouldn't accept a republic without this criteria.

Same dumb ****s who forget that right now you don't vote for the PM or governor general anyway but your local MP and have **** all say in who is the PM anyway

[hawk]

I'm glad I live in a society that rewards endeavour and innovation. .

hmmm quite a few good aussie innovators have been sent packing due to govt ignorance. **** country on this front.

[hawk]

If we believe the shit we hear from business leaders or the media we won't be learning too much about how the economy operates.

Neo-liberalism is a floored ideology that reasons from axiomatic assumptions that simply do not exist such as government budget constraints, loanable funds frameworks, Ricardian Equivalence... and so on.

It takes tens of thousands of hours to learn economics and the idea that people can roll in and read a few shitty textbooks or even get an undergraduate degree and think they understand it all is laughable at best - and yet we see it in the newspapers and on the television everyday.

The worst lot are probably the bank economists. These khunts are ****ing clueless on anything economic and instead rely on capturing regulators to make money more so than competing in any free market environment.

Not attacking you either plague because you are one of the genuine nice guys on the form. But when it comes to Neo-Liberalism I always feel compelled to stick a pin into the balloon

some nice ideologies dropped there dunst. but on a productive front there's even less idea now due to evolving tech & global economics. no govt here has a clue how to deal with it.

[plague]

We did have a referendum on that in the late 90s anyway

Just showed how thick ****s are in this country.

The status quo was kept coz ****s somehow thought it was ridiculously important that they get to vote for the president and wouldn't accept a republic without this criteria.


Nah that's not really the reason.

[The Dunster]

hmmm quite a few good aussie innovators have been sent packing due to govt ignorance. **** country on this front.

Governmnents only do what the Oligarchs tell them to do. The Oligarchs are all about wiping out new players in their infancy to keep themselves at the top of the order.

[The Dunster]

We did have a referendum on that in the late 90s anyway

Just showed how thick ****s are in this country.

The status quo was kept coz ****s somehow thought it was ridiculously important that they get to vote for the president and wouldn't accept a republic without this criteria.

Same dumb ****s who forget that right now you don't vote for the PM or governor general anyway but your local MP and have **** all say in who is the PM anyway

Referendums are difficult to get up due to the endogeneity of response. [ How the question is framed]

[plague]

Referendums are difficult to get up due to the endogeneity of response. [ How the question is framed]

Exactly.
The '99 referendums biggest problem was that although polling showed a good % of people didn't want a foreign head of state, the alternative (or lack thereof) scared people off.
The republicans did a horseshit job of explaining how they could come up with an impartial figure who essentially had to hold the govt to account.

The pollies were pretty much all like "yeah just vote it in and we'll sort out the detail later".

Having pollies 'sort out detail' in the best interests of the nation was something that Joe Public wasn't silly enough to fall for.

When it came down to a choice between the incumbent or someone like Shane Warne, Alan Joyce or Paul Howes, the public was happy to keep the status quo.

[Grimario]

When it came down to a choice between the incumbent or someone like Shane Warne, Alan Joyce or Paul Howes, the public was happy to keep the status quo.

Pretty sure back then that Ray Martin polled highest in that regard.

[plague]

Pretty sure back then that Ray Martin polled highest in that regard.

And there you go.
Bloke isn't impartial, may as well have had Alan Jones.

That was the problem with the whole campaign.

[militiamon]

My understanding is that Australia is more like the German Confederation then a true nation in it's own right. A group of soverign states grouped together for common purposes. Really unlike any other nation afaik our states wield considerable power if not more then the federal government.

Our system is good because if one branch of government does things not in the interest of the nation a state can act in such a way to nullify a lot of what the federal government is doing and vice versa.

Unlike any other nation? Not sure this is true.

I'm sure there are plenty of counties where government power is as decentralised or even more so than ours.
The US is the most obvious one that comes to mind, as well as Spain.

[Skirt Boy]

Unlike any other nation? Not sure this is true.

I'm sure there are plenty of counties where government power is as decentralised or even more so than ours.
The US is the most obvious one that comes to mind, as well as Spain.

In the US state law can trump federal law. It's why Obama had to direct the DEA not to interfere with Colorado's yarndi laws.

[snake]

Just like to take the opportunity to announce two things.

Firstly wish my lord and saviour JC a happy birthday for tomorrow. Really appreciate your sacrifice to die for our sins

Secondly wish you all a Merry Xmas particularly to the two best posters on the foz Plague and FR

why would god give birth to himself only to kill himself just to forgive for some sins that i didn't commit anyway (and neither did you, or anyone)

couldn't the omnipotent **** have forgiven without the bullshit convoluted process? talk about ****ing wasteful

p.s. yes i have been drinking

[boz-monaut]

I love drunk snake

[snake]

GF party this year at slobsys

[plague]

So Malcom Fraser hey.
Didn't seem to have many mates.
Although the hippies started liking him after he went full Red Wedding on the Libs.

[boz-monaut]

I liked Fraser

then again I like sensible, decent politicians who put facts ahead of ideology and are socially progressive and financially conservative

[plague]

yeah he was before my time but from what I read was very vocal on indigenous rights as well as being at the forefront of the anti apartheid movement.

Can't fault that.

I guess people didn't like the fact he was a conservative who came from a fairly well off family.

[boz-monaut]

and of course for his part in the Whitlam dismissal, in which by all accounts he was a bit of a ****

[snake]

need a dd soon, but cosgrove ismtoo much of an insipid mutt to call it

[My2BobsWorth]

I really liked Mal in his later years, and I think he came to realise that being Lib or Lab really means fukall, just do the right thing.

[hawk]

why would god give birth to himself only to kill himself just to forgive for some sins that i didn't commit anyway (and neither did you, or anyone)

couldn't the omnipotent **** have forgiven without the bullshit convoluted process? talk about ****ing wasteful

p.s. yes i have been drinking

book sales and the collection plate are pretty important apparently.

[pv4]

Anyone able to give a bit of a summary on each of the homies running for Lake Mac in the state election? Who is doing what that is good or bad?

I listened to a few interviews that ABC radio did, and Greg Piper the independent seemed the most down to earth. If I don't bother to track down or be given a decent summary of which issues all of them do or don't subscribe to, I'll probably vote for Piper.

[WolfMan]

Took part in the ABC's Vote Compass tool for the first time ever. Turns out, I align mostly with the Greens on individual policies. Not by a great margin over Labor, but still I think I might vote Greens this weekend.

Cue cynical jibes about throwing my vote away and preferences etc.

[plague]

Took part in the ABC's Vote Compass tool for the first time ever. Turns out, I align mostly with the Greens on individual policies.

Haha, you can type in that thing that you hate the blacks and Jews and it will still tell you to vote Green.
It's the ABC FFS.

Legit though, vote however you want but you are essentially voting Labor if you vote Greens. Most people are cool with that.
Same as you are voting for Libs if you're voting Nationals out bush way.

They're all pretty much ****s tho.

[pv4]

My voting compass:

http://i61.tinypic.com/fekz2p.png

[plague]

Who you voting in the State election pv4?

[pv4]

Who you voting in the State election pv4?

Well as I posted a couple of posts ^^ thataway, I was after a bit of help deciding. But if I don't get help, I'll either vote for Piper as he seems pretty down to earth from one interview I bothered to listen to him in, or I'll go all Troy&Abed from Community and vote for South Park.

I usually informal vote, and don't honestly take enough interest in it to consider myself informed enough to care properly tbh.

[plague]

Yeah I think that Piper dude was a prev member at some level (or maybe a Lord Mayor?)
Seemed like he did an ok job prior and I think he got shafted by internal politics.
Certainly seems like a decent fella.


Of course I'm in Newy itself, not Central Coast Heights so I don't keep track too much of goings on down your way.

I'm voting for whoever brings the rail line back or at least puts a def date/funding plan down for the replacement light rail.

Short sighted ****s they all are.

[Skirt Boy]

Gibs me all your moneyz

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/Minardiau/vote_zps84ui8ii1.jpg

[hawk]

Yeah I think that Piper dude was a prev member at some level (or maybe a Lord Mayor?)
Seemed like he did an ok job prior and I think he got shafted by internal politics.
Certainly seems like a decent fella.


Of course I'm in Newy itself, not Central Coast Heights so I don't keep track too much of goings on down your way.

I'm voting for whoever brings the rail line back or at least puts a def date/funding plan down for the replacement light rail.

Short sighted ****s they all are.

could improve the whole transport system with light rail to Merewether.

No Parking Meters Party for mine

[belchardo]

Gibs me all your moneyz

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/Minardiau/vote_zps84ui8ii1.jpg

sod you're political views, what's on the photobucket tab????

[militiamon]

Well as I posted a couple of posts ^^ thataway, I was after a bit of help deciding. But if I don't get help, I'll either vote for Piper as he seems pretty down to earth from one interview I bothered to listen to him in, or I'll go all Troy&Abed from Community and vote for South Park.

I usually informal vote, and don't honestly take enough interest in it to consider myself informed enough to care properly tbh.

I always used to dislike the guy based on this one time he visited my high school, but it turns out he's actually quite a good independent member with some very rational views on things. Some of his positions actually align more closely with the Greens than Labor (but before you get worried pv4, they're on sensible things like mandatory sentencing being stupid).

Will be voting Greens, him and then the riff raff after that.

[northern_swan]

Anyone able to give a bit of a summary on each of the homies running for Lake Mac in the state election? Who is doing what that is good or bad?

I listened to a few interviews that ABC radio did, and Greg Piper the independent seemed the most down to earth. If I don't bother to track down or be given a decent summary of which issues all of them do or don't subscribe to, I'll probably vote for Piper.

Given the profile, or lack thereof, of both the Labor & Liberal party candidates in Lake Mac electorate, I'm thinking that they both see Piper as a shoe in.

[pv4]

Saw Piper, Cleary and I assume some of the other candidates at the front of Toronto Library sarv. Piper seemed to be the boss :cool:

I felt like walking into the middle of them all and loudly asking "who can do the most for my dreams to have a bullet train?!?!" but decided against :oops:

[plague]

mandatory sentencing being stupid


We prob can't be friends anymore huh.

[Bon]

sod you're political views, what's on the photobucket tab????

I would be willing to wager it would be bewbs.. :brrr:

[militiamon]

It's all gud as long as no one is voting for the Shooters and Fishers.

Those guys a bonafide nutjobs who would sell their soul if it meant they could walk the streets with their fully automatic hunting rifle bazookas.

[MFKS]

It's all gud as long as no one is voting for the Shooters and Fishers.

Those guys a bonafide nutjobs who would sell their soul if it meant they could walk the streets with their fully automatic hunting rifle bazookas.

Those guys at least are ****ing honest and not hypocritical

You know what you are gonna get from them. They don't claim to be what they ain't

Can respect them more than LIEberals Labor or the ****ing nut job greeny ****s who are so full of shit it ain't funny

[goaliepersempre]

Im sure everyone knows how I vote and yeah id like you to all vote the same way, but not here to bang on why you should etc etc etc. but hey donkey voters no right to then complain or have an opinion of what ever happens after period.

My real suggestion and how politics should be is that you vote for who you think is the best representative for the area, who is switched on and can provide the most...

Take it seriously, vote and Keep NSW Working..

[plague]

Those guys at least are ****ing honest and not hypocritical

You know what you are gonna get from them. They don't claim to be what they ain't


Nah, that's quite the opposite of what those scheming ****s actually are.

[MFKS]

Nah, that's quite the opposite of what those scheming ****s actually are.

I would rather some gun toting lunatic who likes to kill shit making decisions on my behalf than those ****ing left wing nut cases in the Greens.

Is John Rambo running for parliament??
I like his style

[q-money]

could you imagine it when the shooters & fishers take MKRFC under their wing then brutally dispose of him in a night of the long knives style cleansing?

[plague]

could you imagine it when the shooters & fishers take MKRFC under their wing then brutally dispose of him in a night of the long knives style cleansing?

The good Members first mention of Kale would probably seal his fate.

[Thomas477]

394 boxes in the legislative council :banghead:

[goaliepersempre]

394 boxes in the legislative council :banghead:

pretty crazy amount, number them all?

below the line voting!

[Blackmac79]

Always vote below the line. What else am I going to do on a ****ing Saturday.

And to risk my fledging relationship with the member, I am a union member and a member of a politcal party.

I can't stand people that vote informally. The privilege of being able to vote without fear of prosecution in safety should not be taken for granted or disrespected.

[Thomas477]

pretty crazy amount, number them all?

below the line voting!

Yup, at least it's optional preferential voting, so you just have to number 1-15 and once the people you voted for either get in or get knocked out, your vote is done, no preference deals at all.

And I'm with Blackmac, people who vote informal annoy me.

[MFKS]

I choose to vote informally cause I am wasting my time anyway.

Labor candidate is gonna get in. FFS the only time a Liberal candidate got in the **** quit in disgrace.

As the Labor candidate is a formality for my seat explain to me what is the point of me voting is??

I vote for Labor and it ain't like my vote matters as it is a landslide win anyway.
I vote for some other **** and they still get flogged.

It is a ****ing joke that I actually have to actually drag my arse to a polling station to vote for these ****s anyway.

When the shit is voluntary I might take an interest.

[hawk]

Free Parking Party is doing well in prepoll

[hawk]

Those guys at least are ****ing honest and not hypocritical

You know what you are gonna get from them. They don't claim to be what they ain't

Can respect them more than LIEberals Labor or the ****ing nut job greeny ****s who are so full of shit it ain't funny

An honest cvnt is no better than a dishonest one. maybe they should have a live ammo skirmish game.

I like some lib and lab policies and maybe a grn one. So the vote is simple. Abolish state politics party

[militiamon]

I choose to vote informally cause I am wasting my time anyway.

Labor candidate is gonna get in. FFS the only time a Liberal candidate got in the **** quit in disgrace.

As the Labor candidate is a formality for my seat explain to me what is the point of me voting is??

I vote for Labor and it ain't like my vote matters as it is a landslide win anyway.
I vote for some other **** and they still get flogged.

It is a ****ing joke that I actually have to actually drag my arse to a polling station to vote for these ****s anyway.

When the shit is voluntary I might take an interest.

I don't get it MFKS.

You're saying it's pointless to vote against Labor, when it clearly wasn't last election...

[Blackmac79]

An honest cvnt is no better than a dishonest one. maybe they should have a live ammo skirmish game.

I like some lib and lab policies and maybe a grn one. So the vote is simple. Abolish state politics party

As previously stated. Any party that seriously considers the removal of state politics will gain my support. Regardless of current sway.

[MFKS]

I don't get it MFKS.

You're saying it's pointless to vote against Labor, when it clearly wasn't last election...

What we got some corrupt pollies in due to their clandestine shit they had to pull to get in. They got their come uppance anyway.

Being in the seat I am in it is a waste of time. Labor candidate may as well start cracking the champagne corks tonight

[plague]

Deadset Member you are going full dope tonight.
Stop it.
Every vote for a party helps it reach a threshold where they get funding back from the Govt that then helps future campaigns.

Also, every vote moves a party up in the order of revelence so that next election they are talked about: raising more awareness and money to build thier platform. Also the big parties then suck up to relevant minor parties in order to get preferences etc which then helps get policy decisions in their favour.

Greens/democrats/shooters were all nothing once.


Tl;dr?

If you believe in a party, vote for them because even if they lose it DOES count for something.

Stop being a mong.

[MFKS]

Deadset Member you are going full dope tonight.
Stop it.
Every vote for a party helps it reach a threshold where they get funding back from the Govt that then helps future campaigns.

Also, every vote moves a party up in the order of revelence so that next election they are talked about: raising more awareness and money to build thier platform. Also the big parties then suck up to relevant minor parties in order to get preferences etc which then helps get policy decisions in their favour.

Greens/democrats/shooters were all nothing once.


Tl;dr?

If you believe in a party, vote for them because even if they lose it DOES count for something.

Stop being a mong.

So by not voting I keep them irrelevant and stop them getting tax dollars to further pontificate their shit and thus assist keeping them irrelevant??

Thanks for justifying my decision.

[plague]

So by not voting I keep them irrelevant and stop them getting tax dollars to further pontificate their shit and thus assist keeping them irrelevant??

Thanks for justifying my decision.

so by your rationale why bother making up your pretty signs for Stubbins?
Your opinion didnt matter there whats the point of doing it again?
Bloke hasnt been sacked, why bother?

[plague]

So by not voting I keep them irrelevant and stop them getting tax dollars to further pontificate their shit and thus assist keeping them irrelevant??

Thanks for justifying my decision.

wrong again.

by NOT voting you increase the % of primary vote these parties receive.

if they hit the 4% they get about $2.50 of your tax dollars per vote.

well done for contributing to the thing that you hate the most.

you are officially part of the problem, not the solution.

Cheers,
Plague.

[furns]

The iVote system is fantastic. Including registration, takes 5 minutes.
No battling through hordes of wankers trying to throw How to Vote leaflets at you like confetti.
Cooked my own sausage sizzle.

Win.

[Blackmac79]

Except for:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-state-election-2015/nsw-election-2015-19000-electronic-votes-considered-valid-despite-error-on-ballot-paper-20150318-1m21pi.html

And

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-23/ivote-security-hack-allowed-change-of-vote-security-expert-says/6340168

[MFKS]

so by your rationale why bother making up your pretty signs for Stubbins?
Your opinion didnt matter there whats the point of doing it again?
Bloke hasnt been sacked, why bother?

Make his life uncomfortable and to stoke the rage.
Its one of the few ways we have to voice our disgust at the circus he has made the club. Plus its easier to do this than stoop to the level of plastic fans and not actually front.

Plus the campaign to rid us of Middleby achieved success regardless of how long it took:rof:

[Thomas477]

Plus the campaign to rid us of Middleby achieved success regardless of how long it took:rof:

:thumbsup:

[My2BobsWorth]

Shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway unless you can pass the intelligence test,
Name
DOB
Meaning of hypocryptonite

[MFKS]

The iVote system is fantastic. Including registration, takes 5 minutes.
No battling through hordes of wankers trying to throw How to Vote leaflets at you like confetti.
Cooked my own sausage sizzle.

Win.

Have to agree with this

5 mins and done

No trip to a school tomorrow.

Only downside is I actually did have to vote for some useless ****s

Viva Christian Democrats I hope my vote gets you more money in the future

Couldn't work out a way to leave the paper blank

[hawk]

http://www.worldofmonopoly.com/uk/hasbro/original/deeds/cornerfreepark.jpg

[furns]

Have to agree with this

5 mins and done

No trip to a school tomorrow.

Only downside is I actually did have to vote for some useless ****s

Viva Christian Democrats I hope my vote gets you more money in the future

Couldn't work out a way to leave the paper blankJust when I start to think there is method behind your madness Member, you go and vote for the right wing religious nutjobs. Fred Nile is a detestable human being.

[northern_swan]

Will be interesting to see which way our friends in the mining industry vote in the legislative council, considering a vote for the party that supposedly represents them, could end up supporting the party that wants to shut the industry down

[MFKS]

Just when I start to think there is method behind your madness Member, you go and vote for the right wing religious nutjobs. Fred Nile is a detestable human being.

You miss my ranting about leftist apologists???

More power to those fighting this lot

[furns]

You miss my ranting about leftist apologists???

More power to those fighting this lot

No but there are varying ways to vote right without going THAT far out

[Blackmac79]

Fred Nile, only bloke more CHRISTIAN than him is Ted Cruz.


Universal healthcare = unchristian.
Tax system that taxes those that can afford it more than those that can't = unchristian
Encouraging education scholarships for minorities = Unchristian

[MFKS]

Always thought Fred was unlucky not being born a Yank.

Imagine him on the TV Evangelist circuit making squillions sleeping with hotties, living in sin in his mansion whilst he asks people for money for the poor


Bloke missed out big time

[boz-monaut]

I figured MFKS would vote for Fred Nile for his covering up child molesters policy

[MFKS]

I figured MFKS would vote for Fred Nile for his covering up child molesters policy

Gee whiz :wtf:

Your either doing some piss poor trolling there or intentionally trying to hit well below the belt

[Jetmaster]

Why can't we vote on the interwebz?

[boz-monaut]

you can

http://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/voting/ivote

been around for a while now

[furns]

Posted on the previous page about it. Was so much easier

[Jetmaster]

you can

http://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/voting/ivote

been around for a while now


Somethin went wrong....

HTTP Error 404.0 - Not Found

Supposed to be only for the remote and visually impaired?

[Bremsstrahlung]

I'm currently in "Queensland" or "Victoria". Worked for me the other night.

[hawk]

just 6 mins to go then Baird can start picknhammer the new light rail.

[My2BobsWorth]

I figured MFKS would vote for Fred Nile for his covering up child molesters policy

Is there a connexion

[MFKS]

Is there a connexion
No Connexion

The only connexion is your mate and Gallagher's continual selection in the Jets side:rof:

[militiamon]

I figured MFKS would vote for Fred Nile for his covering up child molesters policy

I'm sorry Member but this made me laugh.

[northern_swan]

What a sad day for the Hunter. **** me there are some dead shits that vote here. Congratulations for pissiing a billion up against the wall.

Forget your light rail, forget your heavy rail, forget your bypass, forget your new hospital at Maitland.

Dead set, this city deserves Tinkler :deadhorse: :banghead:

[Retro Jet]

What a sad day for the Hunter. **** me there are some dead shits that vote here. Congratulations for pissiing a billion up against the wall.

Forget your light rail, forget your heavy rail, forget your bypass, forget your new hospital at Maitland.

Dead set, this city deserves Tinkler :deadhorse: :banghead:

So what you're saying is that unless you're a Liberal/Nat seat, yer gonna get sweeet FA?

[hawk]

we've tried them all. Got next to nothing. That's why we bother with the succession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_of_states) idea.

NNSW and we reap the benefits.

[Blackmac79]

What a sad day for the Hunter. **** me there are some dead shits that vote here. Congratulations for pissiing a billion up against the wall.

Forget your light rail, forget your heavy rail, forget your bypass, forget your new hospital at Maitland.

Dead set, this city deserves Tinkler :deadhorse: :banghead:

A private hospital in maitland, At least with labor here, and in the senate we may get a state owned hospital at maitland.

[Blackmac79]

as things stand in the legislative council (with just over half of the ballot papers counted, and prior to preferences):

Greens - 2
Labor - 6
Liberal - 8
-------------
Total 16

The other 5 seats will go down to preferences, which I think we will end up with the following:

Greens - 3
Labor - 7
Liberal - 10
Shooters and Fishers - 1

Fred Nile seems likely to lose his seat on the legislative Council. He is currently running behind the shooters and fishers by about 30,000 votes and still has less than half of the required number for a seat. No more right wing religious nutjobs which is good.

[boz-monaut]

just right wing nutjobs with guns (and fishing rods)

[northern_swan]

So what you're saying is that unless you're a Liberal/Nat seat, yer gonna get sweeet FA?
Pretty much! Labor has done nothing for this city in 30 years. The labor party have just taken it as given that the sheep will be sheep, and Crackenthorps re election is testament to that. He has been re elected despite having no vision, no leadership qualities and no idea.

This city had the chance to move forward, and blew it. Labor didn't spend any $$$ in liberal areas when they were in power either.



A private hospital in maitland, At least with labor here, and in the senate we may get a state owned hospital at maitland.
Can't see it happening. The Libs won't be spending a dime to make a labor MP look good.

[northern_swan]

Fred Nile seems likely to lose his seat on the legislative Council. He is currently running behind the shooters and fishers by about 30,000 votes and still has less than half of the required number for a seat. No more right wing religious nutjobs which is good.

Thank god for that. See, even God doesn't like Fred Nile

[GazFish35]

Pretty much! Labor has done nothing for this city in 30 years. The labor party have just taken it as given that the sheep will be sheep, and Crackenthorps re election is testament to that. He has been re elected despite having no vision, no leadership qualities and no idea.

This city had the chance to move forward, and blew it. Labor didn't spend any $$$ in liberal areas when they were in power either.



Can't see it happening. The Libs won't be spending a dime to make a labor MP look good.



You almost sound surprised that blue ribbons seats get **** all.

[northern_swan]

You almost sound surprised that blue ribbons seats get **** all.

Not at all. I'm just surprised that the people of the region can't see that.

[Retro Jet]

Maybe the people of this region voted on the issues that matter to them the most, but I bet THEIR/OUR mandate won't be heeded by State Lib/Nat"s.
Mandate - that hook nosed thing couldn't spit the word out enough last night on ABC.

[plague]

Oh man, I woke up this morning, looked outside and there was some Chinese guy taking all my poles and wires.
Just walked off with them.
Now I have no more poles and wires.
Is it too late to change my vote?

[hawk]

We should sell off the whole coal system then switch over to solar. Bad luck china, one investment too many. (apu voice) come again

[The Dunster]

Are the brown paper bags the developers use to hand the money over to the politicians tax deductible ?

[Jetmaster]

I'm a swinging voter (voted Lib in Federal but ALP in this one) so no favouritism here....but geez the hardcore Libs are the biggest whingers on this earth when they get beaten. There is always a reason - independants took votes, scare campaign worked, the turnout was low, it wasn't about policies etc etc etc.

FFS - democratic vote says the majority of Hunter people find the Libs and their policies on the nose, and alot of that has to do with the ICAC fallout, hence the main issue is they feel duped with the lies of the future development of Newcastle.

Simples !

[MFKS]

I'm a swinging voter (voted Lib in Federal but ALP in this one) so no favouritism here....but geez the hardcore Libs are the biggest whingers on this earth when they get beaten. There is always a reason - independants took votes, scare campaign worked, the turnout was low, it wasn't about policies etc etc etc.

FFS - democratic vote says the majority of Hunter people find the Libs and their policies on the nose, and alot of that has to do with the ICAC fallout, hence the main issue is they feel duped with the lies of the future development of Newcastle.

Simples !

Partly true but does negate to the big fact and acknowledge that people in Newy are set in their ways and continue to vote labor regardless of whom is running

[The Dunster]

Partly true but does negate to the big fact and acknowledge that people in Newy are set in their ways and continue to vote labor regardless of whom is running

The same can be said for those that vote conservative as well. What has the liberal party ever done for small business to help them ? Sweet FA

Oligarchy trumping democracy is the problem.

[plague]

I'm a swinging voter (voted Lib in Federal but ALP in this one) so no favouritism here....but geez the hardcore Libs are the biggest whingers on this earth when they get beaten. There is always a reason - independants took votes, scare campaign worked, the turnout was low, it wasn't about policies etc etc etc.

FFS - democratic vote says the majority of Hunter people find the Libs and their policies on the nose, and alot of that has to do with the ICAC fallout, hence the main issue is they feel duped with the lies of the future development of Newcastle.

Simples !

Geez Louise you have a short memory.
Jodi McKay went on an all time rant for years about why she got turfed out of here last time around and according to her it was nowt to do with Team McKay.

All pollies are shitheads in their own special way.

[plague]

The same can be said for those that vote conservative as well. What has the liberal party ever done for small business to help them ? Sweet FA

Oligarchy trumping democracy is the problem.

Libs promised to "cut red tape"
(They haven't really cut much red tape for my business).

Labor promised to do nothing.
(Delivered on that promise).

Make your own mind up as to what is worse.

[Jetmaster]

Geez Louise you have a short memory.
Jodi McKay went on an all time rant for years about why she got turfed out of here last time around and according to her it was nowt to do with Team McKay.

All pollies are shitheads in their own special way.

My memory goes all the way back to It's Time campaign of 1972.....Libs get far more cut than ALP, cos the ALP usually has to admit it did **** up to lose votes!

[plague]

So yesterday's election can be looked at as "LABOR WINS BACK PUBLIC SUPPORT"


or


"LABOR SUFFERS 2ND WORST ELECTION DEFEAT IN HISTORY"

guess it depends on which side of the fence you're on huh.

[militiamon]

Da Greenz gunning down Nationals seats :cool:

[The Dunster]

Libs promised to "cut red tape"
(They haven't really cut much red tape for my business).

Labor promised to do nothing.
(Delivered on that promise).

Make your own mind up as to what is worse.

As I established in an earlier post here [with references] the so called red tape you speak of on business is a self inflicted compliance regime by big business.
Therefore it is wrong to blame either of the major parties for what is effectively the choices of private firms. The reason Oligarchs make these choices is to kill of challenges from smaller more efficient operators. Governments for their part simply legislate however the oligarchs advise them to as little more than a survival technique.

Going even deeper much of the so-called red tape with respect to things like unfair dismissal or wages is ideological rather than evidence based.

With respect to unfair dismissal laws the OECD (2006 jobs study) found that they do not impact on the level of unemployment but merely redistribute it towards the most disadvantaged persons of society being either youth, those over 55, and those on low wages. [ Note THE OECD are not the best reference given their history]

The case for removing minimum wages is easily made by falsely claiming the demand elasticity [sensitivity to changes in price] for labour to be greater than one and the income elasticity [demand with respect to changes in income] to be infinitely small. Making studies arguing to remove minimum wages completely wrong given that empirical work shows the complete opposite.

In fact it's more often the case that an increase in the minimum wage will create more jobs not less because the propensity to consume is greater for those on low to middle incomes than it is for those who derive income from profits.

Obviously other forms of red tape also exist but I would expect they are still fallacies of composition rather than problems that effect the economy as a whole

[plague]

Nah, Not entirely correct. I refer to red tape as a colloquial term used to describe some of the sillier things it takes to run your business.

For instance the $300 odd form I have to complete for ASIC each year advising them whether my small business intends to make any significant changes in the coming year.

You don't have to list the changes, or provide any detail whatsoever, it's just to 'prepare' ASIC for any changes (which would have exactly zero impact on how they operate).

This to me is a pointless exercise and a waste of admin time and money that could be spent elsewhere. As I said this is an ASIC regulation that Govt could directly affect if it so desired.

As for workers rights etc, let me put it to you this way.

If you spot on your cctv an employee break into your house and steal your $1000 tv you call the cops and they are charged.

If the same person is spotted on a cctv set up at your workplace stealing $1000 cash different rules apply.

I don't think that's fair, and Govts make workplace laws.

Refer to all the studies you want but until you have dealt with this situation in real life (as I have) I'm sorry but you can't speak with any authority.

[WolfMan]

We should sell off the whole coal system then switch over to solar. Bad luck china, one investment too many. (apu voice) come again

Yes!

[snake]

unfortunately, the sale will have conditions regarding the amount of renewables allowed on the grid, similar to the provisions of now renewables on kooragang with the port sale. after all, they have to protect those vulnerable investors and guarantee their profit.

even now, many of the suppliers reject pv installation applications in high penetration areas as the oversupply of power during peak solar hours destabilises the grid voltage. of course, this also protecting their fossil fuel interests.

storage is the big key here. it's too expensive now, but prices are coming down. i think it will take technological developments, not just bringing down costs through *mass* production, as per Musks model.

of course, with more people going off grid (intionional or not), watch the regulators allow for increased charges to recoup falling profit. unfortunately, it will be the renters and less well off who'll be slugged here, as they will be the last ones on the grid

[plague]

if these power companies are going to be so nasty and evil and profitable why don't y'all buy shares in them?

[snake]

the same reason i wouldn't have bought into telstra or cba if i was old enough at the time - because they're ****s making a profit leaching off everyday people

i'd rather continue playing my part in the solution, than to become part of the problem

[plague]

the same reason i wouldn't have bought into telstra or cba if i was old enough at the time - because they're ****s making a profit leaching off everyday people

i'd rather continue playing my part in the solution, than to become part of the problem

I wouldn't buy shares in them either, but I wouldn't begrudge people trying to make a dollar by doing it.

We all go to work to make a dollar don't we?
I'm not trying to save the world (but kudos to people who are).

Most people's jobs involve taking money from someone else whichever way you look at it.

[The Dunster]

Nah, Not entirely correct. I refer to red tape as a colloquial term used to describe some of the sillier things it takes to run your business.

For instance the $300 odd form I have to complete for ASIC each year advising them whether my small business intends to make any significant changes in the coming year.

You don't have to list the changes, or provide any detail whatsoever, it's just to 'prepare' ASIC for any changes (which would have exactly zero impact on how they operate).

This to me is a pointless exercise and a waste of admin time and money that could be spent elsewhere. As I said this is an ASIC regulation that Govt could directly affect if it so desired.

As for workers rights etc, let me put it to you this way.

If you spot on your cctv an employee break into your house and steal your $1000 tv you call the cops and they are charged.

If the same person is spotted on a cctv set up at your workplace stealing $1000 cash different rules apply.

I don't think that's fair, and Govts make workplace laws.

Refer to all the studies you want but until you have dealt with this situation in real life (as I have) I'm sorry but you can't speak with any authority.

Given that I regularly deal with ASIC on behalf of our businesses your assumptions about me are simply not correct.

Our clients are some of the largest multi-nationals on the planet and I can tell you now that the level of useless efficiency killing conditions they place on our contracts makes anything governments enforce seem like child's play.

However, Government are absolutely powerless to legislate on anything without getting the nod first from the Oligarchs that own them. It's what is called capturing the regulator and it is a common practice in all modern economies.

Moreover, to reject empirical evidence or studies based on the experience of an individual [ yourself] is what is called a fallacy of composition.

What is true for the individual is not true for society as a whole. Convincing any business owner of this fact has never been easy though given the majority of them have absolutely no social goals on their to do lists.

The funny thing though is that most of what business types regurgitate as truths are more often than not 18th and 19th century truisms that have never been able to survive empirical testing.

If only I had a dollar for every time a business person unknowingly quoted me something from a first year economic text - thinking it was some original thought they conjured up.

I hate government regulation as much as you do but I'm more fearful of the oligarchs.

[The Dunster]

Telstra shares went for around $2.60 but individuals were limited in how many they could buy. However, all people needed to do was purchase them for a relative or friend and then have them transfer the shares to you as a gift.

Long story short. Pay $2.60 and sell at $9. Shit loads of people did it.

Regulation of these activities is generally confined to ASIC and they would need a seeing eye dog to find their own arseholes.

HIH insurance being the best example. NAB stopped dealing with them years before Joe Hockey and ASIC worked out they were on the brink of collapse.

[plague]

Regulation of these activities is generally confined to ASIC and they would need a seeing eye dog to find their own arseholes.


That's cause they are too busy charging me $300 odd to fill in a form to tell them what's up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snake]

We all go to work to make a dollar don't we?
Most people's jobs involve taking money from someone else whichever way you look at it.

there's ethically a big difference between applying a huge markup on a cup of coffee, and privatising what are effectively essential services in flull knowledge that their goal thereafter is only to satisfy shareholders profits by extracting every dollar they can from their customers.

[plague]

there's ethically a big difference between applying a huge markup on a cup of coffee, and privatising what are effectively essential services in flull knowledge that their goal thereafter is only to satisfy shareholders profits by extracting every dollar they can from their customers.

I totally agree with this but people just aren't going to be able to come in and jack up prices for the hell of it.

There's enough info out there to suggest that neither system of ownership is perfect.

If the govt is responsible and smart (stop giggling!!) controls will be put in place to make sure it doesn't happen.

There is more than one way to make a business more efficient and profitable.

If the asset is so desirable then govt will have all the leverage to make sure these controls are put in place before any lease is signed (espn if they don't have balance of power in state senate).

I guess we'll soon find out.

[The Dunster]

I totally agree with this but people just aren't going to be able to come in and jack up prices for the hell of it.

There's enough info out there to suggest that neither system of ownership is perfect.

If the govt is responsible and smart (stop giggling!!) controls will be put in place to make sure it doesn't happen.

There is more than one way to make a business more efficient and profitable.

If the asset is so desirable then govt will have all the leverage to make sure these controls are put in place before any lease is signed (espn if they don't have balance of power in state senate).

I guess we'll soon find out.

The Baird governments only desire is to move goods and services from the public to the private sphere. Questions of equity or indeed efficiency for that matter will never be asked and as such never be answered.

The problem is that this sale will effectively lock in old technology and block / stifle innovation into better technologies for the future.
Last I checked this was the case against communism.

[plague]

The Baird governments only desire is to move goods and services from the public to the private sphere. Questions of equity or indeed efficiency for that matter will never be asked and as such never be answered.

I said if they were smart (meaning 'politically' smart) they will cover their asses.
There is every chance they won't, I don't know, but I feel they would be silly if they don't.

[pv4]

So how much should I expect my electricity bills to go up by from now on, are people able to predict?

Went to my local school to vote Sat and there were people handing out pamphlets for Independent, Labour, CDP and Greens. A guy asked "is there anyone handing out Liberal sheets" and they all laughed and said no, libs didn't bother with this place, and the old guy handing out the Greens forms said "Liberal are only a small party anyway" and it got a bit of a laugh. But moral of the story is Independent seemed to have Lake Mac wrapped up so much that Liberals didn't even bother taking it seriously, as did few of the other parties. Even if I had enough interest to take proper consideration into voting, my choices were limited enough.

In the end I decided to informal vote. I will happily admit I didn't have the interest enough to delve deep enough to find out which issues each of my local members did or didn't stand for. I find a big problem with the voting public is a heap of people seem to vote for a party solely because their grandparents did their whole lives, or some ingrained notion that certain parties are for certain things without even checking if their local member does or doesn't stand for that.

For instance, one would casually assume Greens stand for everything environment. But I listened to an interview with the Greens guy running for my local and when asked his 3 big issues, his first and most important was how he was pro-voluntary-euthanasia. I'd bet there were a heap of people who didn't delve deep enough to find out what each person stood for that still wouldn't have a clue that he stood for that issue.

I see uneducated voters as a huge issue. I know a tonne of people who voted against Liberal in the last election solely because they saw the picture comparing Tony Abbott to Gollum, and thought he looked creepy. So my solution that I offer to everyone is: only vote if you've done the research to know what you're voting for. And if you don't know, don't vote (ie informal). That way, a true indication of what my local, informed community want, will be voted in.

When I decide to take enough interest to feel educated enough on issues and my local members and exactly what they stand for, I'll happily vote formally. Until then, I choose to leave it to the mature members of my community who are educated enough to make informed decisions. Or until all the "my family has always voted labour... my dad told me to vote liberal.. I like god so will vote the christian party" people subscribe to my informal-until-educated view, I'll leave it to them too.

[MFKS]

Good post WLG

Your right about the Greens

You would think they were all for the environment. The problem is they are just a front for allowing any leftist nutter to pursue some half baked agendas and crackpot ideas that the rest of society may not agree with.

PS Where about on the Gypo Coast are they serving Guinea Pigs these days???

[snake]

pv4 - your network charges - which you have zero control over unless you disconnect - will rise faster at a rate much faster than cpi

[militiamon]

So how much should I expect my electricity bills to go up by from now on, are people able to predict?

Went to my local school to vote Sat and there were people handing out pamphlets for Independent, Labour, CDP and Greens. A guy asked "is there anyone handing out Liberal sheets" and they all laughed and said no, libs didn't bother with this place, and the old guy handing out the Greens forms said "Liberal are only a small party anyway" and it got a bit of a laugh. But moral of the story is Independent seemed to have Lake Mac wrapped up so much that Liberals didn't even bother taking it seriously, as did few of the other parties. Even if I had enough interest to take proper consideration into voting, my choices were limited enough.

In the end I decided to informal vote. I will happily admit I didn't have the interest enough to delve deep enough to find out which issues each of my local members did or didn't stand for. I find a big problem with the voting public is a heap of people seem to vote for a party solely because their grandparents did their whole lives, or some ingrained notion that certain parties are for certain things without even checking if their local member does or doesn't stand for that.

For instance, one would casually assume Greens stand for everything environment. But I listened to an interview with the Greens guy running for my local and when asked his 3 big issues, his first and most important was how he was pro-voluntary-euthanasia. I'd bet there were a heap of people who didn't delve deep enough to find out what each person stood for that still wouldn't have a clue that he stood for that issue.

I see uneducated voters as a huge issue. I know a tonne of people who voted against Liberal in the last election solely because they saw the picture comparing Tony Abbott to Gollum, and thought he looked creepy. So my solution that I offer to everyone is: only vote if you've done the research to know what you're voting for. And if you don't know, don't vote (ie informal). That way, a true indication of what my local, informed community want, will be voted in.

When I decide to take enough interest to feel educated enough on issues and my local members and exactly what they stand for, I'll happily vote formally. Until then, I choose to leave it to the mature members of my community who are educated enough to make informed decisions. Or until all the "my family has always voted labour... my dad told me to vote liberal.. I like god so will vote the christian party" people subscribe to my informal-until-educated view, I'll leave it to them too.

What happened to liking what Greg Piper was saying? Curious.

Some points I would make:

1. A couple of people have mentioned that voting for your local member should be about your local member and not about the party. tbh, I think it means shit all what your local member believes, or how good they are.
At the end of the day, they are almost certainly going to vote along party lines (as decided by cabinet/shadow cabinet) on every issue. How good they are at actually getting the little that is done for their electorate is almost entirely a mystery imo. You never know how good they are at lobbying behind closed doors for certain things, but definitely at a state or federal level what your member does for your electorate is really sfa.

So I would argue the opposite, that people should vote for their local member based on which party they are running for. Only exception to this are if you feel strongly about an issue that is likely to go to a conscience vote (e.g gay marriage, abortion), in which case it might be worth voting for someone who supports your view.

2. Fair enough to think that about uneducated voters, we all have at some point, but I reckon it's just the nature of the beast, this whole democracy thing.

There are probably a lot of people who do feel like they are 'educated' voters, but might be equally misinformed as someone who doesn't claim to be so. I wouldn't want some dunce who reads the Daily Telegraph politics section every day or some dude from the Socialist Alliance voting for me because they think they're more educated.

Alternative is to live in a technocracy.

[pv4]

Basically what I seemed to like about Piper was he seemed down to earth. He didn't seem to grovel for votes like I expected him to, and the interview I heard from him he didn't offer preferences as he said people were smart enough to work it out for themselves. So i guess from the brief insight I had, he seemed to be keeping it real. But i didn't delve enough into what issues he did or didn't stand for. The big ticket item in this election seemed to be the poles/wires thing which I feel like everyone in Lake Mac was against anyway.

Both of your points highlight to me how flawed the system is. I haven't been presented with many great ways to be part of the solution to these problems that are any better than my informal decision is tbh.

[Skirt Boy]

Strayan democracy is broken

[plague]

So how much should I expect my electricity bills to go up by from now on, are people able to predict?

I'd say they will most def go up.
So will rents.
So will house prices.
So will insurance costs.
So will water rates.
So will cars.
So will drugs.
So will Jets season tickets.

And hopefully if you're lucky your wages will go up to cover it all.


ps FWIW I think you should have voted. Your reasoning was as legit/if not more than anyone out there.
No candidate is perfect.

[plague]

Quick question:
Does anyone on here run solar in their house?

Dispensing with the whole govt subsidy bullshit did you think it was a cost effective option?

[plague]

Also it now looks like QLD is a tad unsettled after ALP sacked a member. I think this now gives them and Libs same amount of seats with Katters party holding the balance.

Katter is known as a very effective Pollie will be I interrsring to see how he uses this new power.

[The Dunster]

I'd say they will most def go up.
So will rents.
So will house prices.
So will insurance costs.
So will water rates.
So will cars.
So will drugs.
So will Jets season tickets.

And hopefully if you're lucky your wages will go up to cover it all.


ps FWIW I think you should have voted. Your reasoning was as legit/if not more than anyone out there.
No candidate is perfect.

Wages for the majority of Australians have been falling for over thirty years.

The average wage has managed to increase but only because the top 10% has increased substantially to more than offset losses at the lower levels.

Overall, productivity has increased much faster than wages and that increase has been taken up by the proportion of incomes going to profits becoming larger.

In the short term that's great news for business owners.
In the long terms it's a disaster because if wages fall so does spending.
The solution [and its a bad one] is to rely on households to spend more than they earn using credit.
This is the flawed logic behind surplus budgets being sustainable or indeed responsible.

[plague]

Wages for the majority of Australians have been falling for over thirty years.

The average wage has managed to increase but only because the top 10% has increased substantially to more than offset losses at the lower levels.

Overall, productivity has increased much faster than wages and that increase has been taken up by the proportion of incomes going to profits becoming larger.

In the short term that's great news for business owners.
In the long terms it's a disaster because if wages fall so does spending.
The solution [and its a bad one] is to rely on households to spend more than they earn using credit.
This is the flawed logic behind surplus budgets being sustainable or indeed responsible.

You're doing it all wrong sir.

This is who the power 'sell off' campaign is aimed at.

"When I was a kid bread was 20c a loaf now it's $3 THE EVIL CORPORATIONS ARE MAKING US POOR".

If you don't think like that then there's no need to worry.

[goaliepersempre]

Pv4 invalid vote - no longer can discuss and issues but i guess i cant either seeing that I didnt vote/cant/living over here. So we are even mate :P

oh the greens are you the Green Greens or the Red Greens debate....

I naturally am dissapointed in our lower hunter seats... In Upper Hunter you have a good bloke in Michael Johnsen...

As for independets taking votes away, there is a bit of a problem there re seat of maitland with penfold... But im not going to go into it.. Not worth anytime...


Positive result for the state for the lower hunter dissapointed.

[The Dunster]

You're doing it all wrong sir.

This is who the power 'sell off' campaign is aimed at.

"When I was a kid bread was 20c a loaf now it's $3 THE EVIL CORPORATIONS ARE MAKING US POOR".

If you don't think like that then there's no need to worry.

It's a done deal the sell off. No marketing required.
In less than a years time few if any people will be even talking about the sale or indeed the price of electricity.
As soon as the media move on to their next story so will the average person on the street.

It's a bit like how when timed local phone calls were mentioned around twenty years ago people were up in arms about it and said they would never allow it to happen.

Fast forward ten years or so and most of the population have embraced using mobile phones which effectively introduced timed local calls to the masses by stealth.

The stupidity of the population never ceases to amaze.

[plague]

In less than a years time few if any people will be even talking about the sale or indeed the price of electricity.
As soon as the media move on to their next story so will the average person on the street.

Absolutely.

[q-money]

good to see the telegraph taking premier overlord mike baird's resounding win well

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/wealthy-residents-of-annandales-greens-vote-in-nsw-state-election-a-bit-rich/story-fni0cx12-1227285338708


WEALTHY residents helped deliver two inner-city seats to the Greens in Saturday’s election, forging a bizarre link with their spliff-smoking hippy pals in the Greens’ northern NSW town of Nimbin

[parksey]

i seriously don't understand the point/angle of that article at all

[plague]

i seriously don't understand the point/angle of that article at all

The Greens hate the rich.
The rich voted for the Greens.
I can only assume there's a line in there comparing it to the Jews voting for Hitler or something.

DT addressing ALL the big issues.
(Don't worry the other mob had a feminist moaning how offended she was that Abbott ate an onion or something).
I hate everyone.

Just stick to reading the Foz. Much better for you.

[Skirt Boy]

good to see the telegraph taking premier overlord mike baird's resounding win well

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/wealthy-residents-of-annandales-greens-vote-in-nsw-state-election-a-bit-rich/story-fni0cx12-1227285338708

In Germany it's well know the Greens are a party for the rich

[The Dunster]

In Germany it's well know the Greens are a party for the rich

Greens have always been conservatives when it comes to their ideology.

Mass unemployment and risng household debt appear to be the Greens solution to everything.

[The Dunster]

PRIME Minister Tony Abbott has launched a new jobs network at Simonds Stadium this morning.
The Government has committed $5 billion to establish jobactive, which aims to help the unemployed find work and assist employees in securing suitable jobseekers.

From July 1, 66 organisations will deliver one or more jobactive services to job seekers and employers across Australia.

The Government want to ensure there are clearer incentives to ensure employment service providers are focused on better preparing job seekers to meet the needs of local employers and helping people to find and keep a job.

Service providers will no longer receive ‘job placement’ payments. The rules around training have also been tightened to ensure that job seekers are not being sent to training, for training’s sake.

The announcement comes after a Geelong Advertiser report on unemployment surging to a four-year high in Geelong’s northern suburbs, reaching almost 20 per cent in the final months of 2014.
http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/news/prime-minister-tony-abbott-in-geelong-to-launch-job-network-at-simonds-stadium/story-fnjuhxh0-1227285244566

Long story Short. It's the failed JobsNetwork Mark III and an attempt to blame the unemployed and most vulnerable people in society for the macroeconomic failures of every Australian government since 1972.

Governments used to be concerned with full employment now they are concerned with full employability. In other words government is investing in training people for jobs that simply do not exist once again.

One hundred dogs trying to find ten bones would be a fair description of the new scheme.

[q-money]

Greens have always been conservatives when it comes to their ideology.

Mass unemployment and risng household debt appear to be the Greens solution to everything.

the vote in balmain and newtown is clearly aimed at westconnex. it's a donkey of a road, and a terrible solution and the voters know it

[plague]

the vote in balmain and newtown is clearly aimed at westconnex. it's a donkey of a road, and a terrible solution and the voters know it

Yeah everything I read was about it being against that road. Was Labor in favour of it as well? Is that why they didn't get the vote?

[q-money]

to be honest i hardly saw a labor or liberal stooge at any of the polling booths. i know verity firth was the labor candidate in balmain but I haven't got a monkeys as to who it was in newtown

i know who the greens candiate was though (jenny leong aka fake penny wong)

the greens hustled super hard for these seats, i saw old mate jamie parker's enormous head out there every few days in glebe

i also voted for him just to piss off MFKS

[MFKS]

to be honest i hardly saw a labor or liberal stooge at any of the polling booths. i know verity firth was the labor candidate in balmain but I haven't got a monkeys as to who it was in newtown

i know who the greens candiate was though (jenny leong aka fake penny wong)

the greens hustled super hard for these seats, i saw old mate jamie parker's enormous head out there every few days in glebe

i also voted for him just to piss off MFKS

Nothing to brag about being party to these clowns destroying the nation with their nutcase policies and agendas

[q-money]

:rof:

i reckon your mates in the big end of town might already be doing a pretty good job of that themselves without the homosex and global warmings and the like

i don't think it's the greens you should be worrying about m8

[q-money]

could you imagine if brandis got a hold of the member's metadata?

*search stubbins
*search kill stubbins
*location track/MFKS/root/stubbins
*MFKS stationary in prone position on grassy knoll

[plague]

could you imagine if brandis got a hold of the member's metadata?

*search stubbins
*search kill stubbins
*location track/MFKS/root/stubbins
*MFKS stationary in prone position on grassy knoll

*search kale
*search no not that rabbit food Kale, the proper Kale.
*search michael bridges birth certificate Donald trump can jet fuel melt industrial steel

[MFKS]

:rof:

i reckon your mates in the big end of town might already be doing a pretty good job of that themselves without the homosex and global warmings and the like

i don't think it's the greens you should be worrying about m8
None of them in the big end of town are my mates either.

Don't forget I hate everyone :rof:

Just have more hate for Stubbins Middleby Gypos Lefty Apoligists and Plastic Fans :thumbsup:

[plague]

Actually can someone tell me exactly where the 'big end of town' is?
Tried google maps but says 'no results'.

Someone told me once there was a 'Big Als' in the centre of town, but apparently that's not quite what am after.

Please help ta thanks.

[plague]

Legit: Labor needs to get better phrases than 'the big end of town' and 'Ivory towers'.

85% of Lib pollies need to just stop talking altogether.

[hawk]

Actually can someone tell me exactly where the 'big end of town' is?
Tried google maps but says 'no results'.

Someone told me once there was a 'Big Als' in the centre of town, but apparently that's not quite what am after.

Please help ta thanks.

the knob end

[380]

Follow the trail of brown paper bags, that should lead you there.

[The Dunster]

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/dr-karl-kruszelnicki-my-role-in-government-video-does-not-mean-im-a-liberal-party-stooge-20150314-143dh5.html

Dr Karl selling out to the Conservatives by spruiking their Intergenerational Report which looks like it was written in the late 18th century rather that in the last five years.
For a bloke that is scientifically trained he's certainly dropped the ball getting involved with this shit. The report is 99% ideology and the remaining one per cent a combination of AIDS and syphilis.

[plague]

Dr Karl selling out to the Conservatives by spruiking their Intergenerational Report which looks like it was written in the late 18th century rather that in the last five years.

bhahahahahahaha yeah thought the same thing. Although to be fair, Dr Karl has been a capitalist swine for many a year.
Cant pay the bills with morals.

[Blackmac79]

I was a bit sad to see those ads.

Sellout

[plague]

i was a bit sad to see those ads.

Sellout

where is your god now??????

[plague]

Anyone else been following those new laws in America. A few states most notably Indiana (?) have passed laws essentially making it legal to discriminate on the basis of religion.
Most high profile case so far was a pizza joint owner who (when interviewed) said she wouldn't cater a gay wedding. Mind you it was only a hypothetical question no one had actually asked her to cater a gay wedding.

This was met by the usual calls of bigotry and redneck but then the gay sympathisers went after the pizza joint big time, essentially forcing it to close its doors, because the owner had death threats.
But then some more citizens who hated the bully getting bullied then set up a kickstarter type fund to get them back in business and raised over $450,000 for the family.

Questions: sp who is in the right and who is in the wrong here?

Personally I think everyone comes off as kind of shitty from pollies making the laws, to people hiding behind religion, to people threatening people for having those religious views.

For more detail search 'Memories Pizza' (I've condensed it a lot).

Thoughts?

[plague]

Edit: oh dear god I've just found out it's the subject of a Tim Blair article in the Telegraph today.

prob don't read Tim Blairs take on it.

[The Dunster]

Anyone else been following those new laws in America. A few states most notably Indiana (?) have passed laws essentially making it legal to discriminate on the basis of religion.
Most high profile case so far was a pizza joint owner who (when interviewed) said she wouldn't cater a gay wedding. Mind you it was only a hypothetical question no one had actually asked her to cater a gay wedding.

This was met by the usual calls of bigotry and redneck but then the gay sympathisers went after the pizza joint big time, essentially forcing it to close its doors, because the owner had death threats.
But then some more citizens who hated the bully getting bullied then set up a kickstarter type fund to get them back in business and raised over $450,000 for the family.

Questions: sp who is in the right and who is in the wrong here?

Personally I think everyone comes off as kind of shitty from pollies making the laws, to people hiding behind religion, to people threatening people for having those religious views.

For more detail search 'Memories Pizza' (I've condensed it a lot).

Thoughts?

The ability to segregate the market and discriminate between agents is the very foundation of the capitalist system.
Remove the ability to discriminate and the system collapses.

The oligarchs instruct the pollies to start a conflict between the other groups and then simply sit back and watch them fight over the crumbs.

[hawk]

How good are these protests.

effnics always have a good go now the Anglos get a turn against themselves. Bring that sh1t on.

btw govts are happy that some activity is taking the heat off em.

[plague]

The ability to segregate the market and discriminate between agents is the very foundation of the capitalist system.
Remove the ability to discriminate and the system collapses.

The oligarchs instruct the pollies to start a conflict between the other groups and then simply sit back and watch them fight over the crumbs.

So you think the system is wrong?
Should they not be allowed to discriminate?
I'm interested to hear other peoples angles on this.

[plague]

How good are these protests.

effnics always have a good go now the Anglos get a turn against themselves. Bring that sh1t on.

Was walking down George st one day when one of those "free Palestine" street marches was on.
Decided to jump in and have a singalong for a few hundred meters.
Was very empowering. Good fun.

Would def have punched on if any Jews came at me.

[The Dunster]

So you think the system is wrong?
Should they not be allowed to discriminate?
I'm interested to hear other peoples angles on this.

Pareto Optimal conditions state that a distribution of wealth such that any redistribution or other change beneficial to one individual is detrimental to one or more others.

If you believe that you know what the Pareto Optimal conditions are and how to optain them then you would allow racism.
If you do not know what the Pareto Optimal conditions are then you would legislate against them and accept what is referred to as a Theory of 2nd Best.

I'm pretty sure that the Pareto Optimal conditions are neither known or achievable so I'm all for legislation to rid the system of discrimination based on race, religion, and so on.

[plague]

Pareto Optimal conditions state that a distribution of wealth such that any redistribution or other change beneficial to one individual is detrimental to one or more others.

If you believe that you know what the Pareto Optimal conditions are and how to optain them then you would allow racism.
If you do not know what the Pareto Optimal conditions are then you would legislate against them and accept what is referred to as a Theory of 2nd Best.

I'm pretty sure that the Pareto Optimal conditions are neither known or achievable so I'm all for legislation to rid the system of discrimination based on race, religion, and so on.

All those big words yet I still can't get into the Workers club in my cap.
Now THAT is some real discrimination right there Dunster!!!

[The Dunster]

All those big words yet I still can't get into the Workers club in my cap.
Now THAT is some real discrimination right there Dunster!!!

I wouldn't drink their commie beer anyway.

[Skirt Boy]

Penalty Rates. All this hoopla is why the minimum wage needs to be scrapped.

Keep the penalty rates but scrap the minimum wage.

[plague]

Penalty Rates. All this hoopla is why the minimum wage needs to be scrapped.

Keep the penalty rates but scrap the minimum wage.

Wha?
Penalty rates in their current form are pretty dumb.
They need to be reevaluated (in conjunction with the minimum wage review).


But


People shutting their doors because they have to pay overs for maybe 5 days a year aren't running their businesses very well.

[MFKS]

Complete and utter bullshit from business on penalty rates.

You want to open on public holidays to cater for customers and line your pockets with silver then pay your staff appropriately to compensate them for their sacrifice of giving up their public holiday

If you ain't making enough money to cover it then charge the customer more to compensate. They want the goods and services on a public holiday then they should pay the premium price for it.


If it don't add up then shut your doors and have the day off like every other **** cause that is what it is a Public Holiday
ARROGANT ****S

[q-money]

maybe instead of hitting the worker they should look at every other grub in the chain trying to make a buck off small business

[plague]

Complete and utter bullshit from business on penalty rates.

You want to open on public holidays to cater for customers and line your pockets with silver then pay your staff appropriately to compensate them for their sacrifice of giving up their public holiday

If you ain't making enough money to cover it then charge the customer more to compensate. They want the goods and services on a public holiday then they should pay the premium price for it.


If it don't add up then shut your doors and have the day off like every other **** cause that is what it is a Public Holiday
ARROGANT ****S

'Line your pockets with silver'?
'Sacrifice of giving up their public holiday'?


You forgot 'Ivory towers' and 'the big end of town' in your 'Newcastle Herald letters section bingo'.

So what sort of 'sacrifice' is given for working the 27th April which is being lobbied to include as a public holiday?
Where is the 'sacrifice' in working before 5pm on a Thursday and after 5pm on a Thursday?
Exactly why is a Sunday considered more of an inconvenience to work than a Saturday? Aren't they both weekend days?


Penalty rates as they are today are the product of a very different economy and workplace to when they were first introduced.

They need to be altered to reflect our modern society.
I'm not saying abolish them. There are very real instances where workers deserve more money.
Having 14 staff under you vs having 15 staff under you isn't one of them.

[My2BobsWorth]

If paying some poor bastard penalty rates is going to break the business then you really should get another job.

[Skirt Boy]

If paying some poor bastard penalty rates is going to break the business then you really should get another job.

Conversly if a person need penalty rates to survive then perhaps they need to get a better paying job or go for a 3 bedroom home in Wallsend instead of house in Cooks Hill.

It's all relevant.

[Blackmac79]

Penalty Rates. All this hoopla is why the minimum wage needs to be scrapped.

Keep the penalty rates but scrap the minimum wage.

Both need to remain.

In my work, penalty rates enable me to pay my rent, bills and buy food. I don't live in Cooks Hill either, however I rent a 2 bedroom home and will soon have my 2 children (The second due in July) sharing a room, because a 3 Bedroom room at Wallsend will cost me more than I can afford.

All that getting rid of the minimum wage will do is enable employers to pay people like me, who are already at the lower end of the scale of wages, even less.

All that getting rid of penalty rates will do is make it harder for people like me to make ends meet.

[MFKS]

Both need to remain.

In my work, penalty rates enable me to pay my rent, bills and buy food. I don't live in Cooks Hill either, however I rent a 2 bedroom home and will soon have my 2 children (The second due in July) sharing a room, because a 3 Bedroom room at Wallsend will cost me more than I can afford.

All that getting rid of the minimum wage will do is enable employers to pay people like me, who are already at the lower end of the scale of wages, even less.

All that getting rid of penalty rates will do is make it harder for people like me to make ends meet.
Bang On

All it is the rich exploiting the poor.

Lets have a look at the effects of the removal of double time and all that from retail. We never had the shops open on the weekend. They closed at 5-6pm at night. Then we got half day Saturday then Thursday night shopping then Sunday trade then public holiday trade then midnight trade. Where the **** does it end. They will trade 365 days a year if they were allowed to

All that changed is the big companies didn't have to pay time and half and double time and double time and a half to have people working Saturdays Sundays and all night.

Last I looked the thieving pricks who have benefited are the shareholders of shopping centre and large supermarket chains cause it defo ain't the rank and file worker and it ain't the community with the effects caused by people being at work having tremendous effects on the family unit

[Blackmac79]

Ps. Skirt boy. **** you for saying "get a better paying job"

Some of us work with little options hey.

Stick to taking photos.

[boz-monaut]

you all wish you could live in Cooks Hill - greatest suburb in Newy

[Blackmac79]

you all wish you could live in Cooks Hill - greatest suburb in Newy

I tend to agree.

[lquiquer]

you all wish you could live in Cooks Hill - greatest suburb in Newy

Cooks Hill ? I prob need a visa to visit?

[Skirt Boy]

Ps. Skirt boy. **** you for saying "get a better paying job"

Some of us work with little options hey.

Stick to taking photos.

Don't get me wrong mate. I know people do it tough. I grew up in Windale.

The points I'm making is that youth unemployment is chronic problem which is partly caused due to high minimum wage we have in this country.

As a result companies no longer take punts on young people and insist on job seekers having more tickets then what there wallet can handle and already be training up. IE companies are no longer performing training themselves and if you don't have experience forget about it.

Secondly some jobs are not supposed to be 'careers'. It's in my view quite absurd that there are jobs today thanks to the minimum wage that people can live quite comfortably on. A minimum wage should be an amount that only covers the bare basics for a single person. IE a bedsitter/studio apartment, cheap rust bucket/public transportation, utilities and food. Maybe enough spare change for night out. It should not be enough for a person to consider buying a home or living a comfortable life.

In my view having such a high minimum wage people can become complacent. There becomes no insentive to better their situation.

Combine this with penalty rates and it would also stimmy growth in the casual employment sector. I'm old enough to remember a time that going to a labour hire company and getting a few shifts here and there was a viable alternative to being on the dole. Irrespective of how qualified a person was. Or even getting a mate a few days or a weeks work.

It is something we really need to seriously have a look at. In principle the minimum wage and penalty are bloody ideas. However how they have been implemented has been a mistake.

[plague]

Bang On

All it is the rich exploiting the poor.

Lets have a look at the effects of the removal of double time and all that from retail. We never had the shops open on the weekend. They closed at 5-6pm at night. Then we got half day Saturday then Thursday night shopping then Sunday trade then public holiday trade then midnight trade. Where the **** does it end. They will trade 365 days a year if they were allowed to

All that changed is the big companies didn't have to pay time and half and double time and double time and a half to have people working Saturdays Sundays and all night.

Last I looked the thieving pricks who have benefited are the shareholders of shopping centre and large supermarket chains cause it defo ain't the rank and file worker and it ain't the community with the effects caused by people being at work having tremendous effects on the family unit

Utter tripe.
Ignorant ramblings from someone who should know better.

These evil companies you're talking about wouldn't make a cent if it wasn't for people buying their shit. Stop going there and they go broke. Simple.


Oh by the way some of the biggest investors in shopping centres in our country are your so called rank and file 'werkers' super funds.

It's astounding how easy some of you think running your own business is yet won't get off your asses and do it yourselves.

[plague]

If paying some poor bastard penalty rates is going to break the business then you really should get another job.

Exactly. Thinking you can only open your business on days where you make a profit is delusional.
Things need to be measured in months and years, not the 5 or so days where public holiday rates exist.

But

The real problem is the complexity of awards and the penalty rates surrounding them.
The idea of penalty rates isn't the problem, it's the admin that is a nightmare. It can, and should, be made a lot easier than it currently is.

[Jetmaster]

Not against people getting penalties if they have a normal 5 day week and get called in on a weekend or public holiday to do extra.

Against people who work four or five days each week getting extra if any of those days are a weekend, but have their "weekend" during the week.

Also, there are alot of people out there who only want weekend/night work because of those rates, not caring about whether it is a weekend or not.

I used to have staff that whinged if you didn't give them overtime, even if the work wasn't there !

[MFKS]

Utter tripe.
Ignorant ramblings from someone who should know better.

These evil companies you're talking about wouldn't make a cent if it wasn't for people buying their shit. Stop going there and they go broke. Simple.


Oh by the way some of the biggest investors in shopping centres in our country are your so called rank and file 'werkers' super funds.

It's astounding how easy some of you think running your own business is yet won't get off your asses and do it yourselves.

These super funds are also topped up by extra super from the penalties rates paid to employees. Forza penalty rates



Also Plague if the 11 days or whatever it is of public holidays are such a burden for employers then they need to look at their competence at running their business.

11 days with extra costs should not be leaving you penniless if you are running your business well.

Maybe the issue really does lie with the employers and their inabilities :rof:

[plague]

Also Plague if the 11 days or whatever it is of public holidays are such a burden for employers then they need to look at their competence at running their business.

11 days with extra costs should not be leaving you penniless if you are running your business well.

Maybe the issue really does lie with the employers and their inabilities :rof:

Yeah you should read my posts first cuz.
Might learn that we agree on this point.


Also you said that thieving pricks are the ones profiting from shopping centres and your super find is one of those thieving prices so 2+2=A couple of points over bank interest it would seem.

Also: no shopping centres, no A-League. Be careful what you wish for.

[q-money]

We must burn the Westfield immediately inshallah

[plague]

We must burn the Westfield immediately inshallah
Westfield????
Dineaway????

When will the caliphate end Q-man????????????

[Blackmac79]

Not against people getting penalties if they have a normal 5 day week and get called in on a weekend or public holiday to do extra.

Against people who work four or five days each week getting extra if any of those days are a weekend, but have their "weekend" during the week.

Also, there are alot of people out there who only want weekend/night work because of those rates, not caring about whether it is a weekend or not.

I used to have staff that whinged if you didn't give them overtime, even if the work wasn't there !

I get that, but then why would I, or any other nurse work weekends?

It is a disadvantage working saturdays/sundays over other days. I don't get to go out with mates on a friday/saturday/sunday night. Organising things with extended family is difficult. It comes down to this "if you don't want to work weekends, don't". With that attitude I hope you don't get sick on a saturday or sunday....

[q-money]

Westfield????
Dineaway????

When will the caliphate end Q-man????????????

it will never end my friend until the heretic stubbins is wiped from the earth or at least sent to coach the youth team

[The Dunster]

Not against people getting penalties if they have a normal 5 day week and get called in on a weekend or public holiday to do extra.

Against people who work four or five days each week getting extra if any of those days are a weekend, but have their "weekend" during the week.

Also, there are alot of people out there who only want weekend/night work because of those rates, not caring about whether it is a weekend or not.

I used to have staff that whinged if you didn't give them overtime, even if the work wasn't there !

It's called the Relative Income Hypothesis. James Dusenberry wrote his PhD Thesis on it in 1948.
Most of us here know this type of behaviour as "Keeping up with the Jones's"

In todays terms considering real wages for most people are falling and yet productivity and profits are increasing is it any wonder people are trying to top up their earnings via penalty rates or OT ?

The fun will begin when the financial engineering comes to a halt and workers will no longer be able to spend more than they earn using credit.

That will spell the end to profits and indeed result in a recession the likes of which we have nver seen before.

[My2BobsWorth]

The fat cats sit in their ivory towers in the big end of town, stuffing caviar and cognac down their fat faces while their fat children peer down with total disgust at the wretched filthy workers trying to scrape a few dollars together to feed themselves and their families.

That's how I see it.

[plague]

The fat cats sit in their ivory towers in the big end of town, stuffing caviar and cognac down their fat faces while their fat children peer down with total disgust at the wretched filthy workers trying to scrape a few dollars together to feed themselves and their families.

That's how I see it.

This is the greatest post ever in the history of the Foz.

If only you'd made mention of the Gubmint coming 'round to take yer guns id have marked it higher.

Congrats though anyway.

[mervan]

The fat cats sit in their ivory towers in the big end of town, stuffing caviar and cognac down their fat faces while their fat children peer down with total disgust at the wretched filthy workers trying to scrape a few dollars together to feed themselves and their families.

That's how I see it.

Join the communist party
The greens

[Blackmac79]

This current policy of not paying those who don't vaccinate their children.

Good policy. First I have agreed with in a while.

[snake]

This current policy of not paying those who don't vaccinate their children.

Good policy. First I have agreed with in a while.

agree, but should have went further imo.

should have increased taxes for anti vaxxers, in the same way ppl over 90k (180k) are "encouraged" to support the private health industry. after all, their reckless decisions will cost more to the public, so that's only fair.

also there should be no religious exemptions, only medical.

[hawk]

also there should be no religious exemptions, only medical.

yeah, what is that sh1t all about. relig get to hide behind enough rules as it is.

[Blackmac79]

Exporting people to Cambodia when we have regional cities like Newcastle crying out for increased populations seems like an awful waste.

[plague]

Exporting people to Cambodia when we have regional cities like Newcastle crying out for increased populations seems like an awful waste.

the fuq is calling out for more effniks in Newy?

[plague]

Dr Karl, backtracking like a mofo.
The money from his ads for the inter generational/Abbott Hockey Goebels sideshow is being "donated to charity".
He says he never even knew how much he was getting but just "believed in the study".
Hahaha bollocks.

It's all good tho Triple J gave him a pass like Clint Eastwood got in Gran Torino.

Utter shite.

[The Dunster]

If Dr Karl came out and said " I don't give a **** what's in the report I just wanted the cash" I could respect his decision.
But to come out and say he believed in the study before he even read it just confirms that he is a complete goose.

[plague]

If Dr Karl came out and said " I don't give a **** what's in the report I just wanted the cash" I could respect his decision.
But to come out and say he believed in the study before he even read it just confirms that he is a complete goose.

This.

I heard people bashing the Libs for asking him in the first place.

I'd say he was prob the perfect choice to appeal to the masses.
Good marketing choice.
Shit execution.

Dr Karl is a dill for giving in to da haterz.

[snake]

yo dunster - wuts your opinion on this lomberg fella?

$12m funding is a lot for a nobody with a h-index of 3. adjunct prof., ffs :oops:

[hawk]

Exporting people to Cambodia when we have regional cities like Newcastle crying out for increased populations seems like an awful waste.

Need an effective govt not passage to newy

[hawk]

If Dr Karl came out and said " I don't give a **** what's in the report I just wanted the cash" I could respect his decision.
But to come out and say he believed in the study before he even read it just confirms that he is a complete goose.

Carl says we need a better infrastructure. Rail. So why are we ripping it out? oh, cause science hasn't worked out how to build over it

[Retro Jet]

CROSS THREAD POST
So, was this Ed Miliband a distant relation to Steve Miller Band?

[q-money]

right

newcastle bowling club development - yay or nay?

i'm all for the site being developed but is stronach's idea the right one?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2753260-3x2-700x467.jpg

does newcastle really need another "function centre"? or does it just need a better designed one without a carpark tacked on to the side of it

no function centre really holds a candle to the wickham croatia club anyway imo

what should go in there and why?

[The Dunster]

right

newcastle bowling club development - yay or nay?

i'm all for the site being developed but is stronach's idea the right one?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2753260-3x2-700x467.jpg

does newcastle really need another "function centre"? or does it just need a better designed one without a carpark tacked on to the side of it

no function centre really holds a candle to the wickham croatia club anyway imo

what should go in there and why?

Function Centre ? Pffft.

Why not make it a Short Stay Hotel and have Zip Lines installed for fast access to VJ's Paddle Steamers docked below.

[plague]

Function Centre ? Pffft.

Why not make it a Short Stay Hotel and have Zip Lines installed for fast access to VJ's Paddle Steamers docked below.

where can i put my name down on the waiting list for these 'zip lines'?

[belchardo]

where can i put my name down on the waiting list for these 'zip lines'?

because you like zip lines or because it goes to VJ's paddle steamers?