The Politics/Religion/Conspiracies Deathmatch Thread

[hawk]

poor little fker. I do feel sorry for it but fk that is worded well :rof:

[pv4]

Im legit happy you did this if for real.
The sooner people work out that that's the way our system works (as opposed to likes and hashtags) the sooner we'll all start getting somewhere.

I never got a reply back. It's been a month, so I assume he'll never write back :(

I did see this in The Herald (http://bit.ly/4kb77v), although it doesn't mention my local member in any way:


Labor's rainbow vision for city - a colourful crossing, 'safe places' for LGBT community
By JASON GORDON July 23, 2015, 10:30 p.m

NEWCASTLE’S Labor councillors have tabled a plan to back same-sex marriage, provide more ‘‘safe spaces’’ for gay and lesbian people and create a permanent ‘‘rainbow pedestrian crossing’’ in a Newcastle street or park.

While the intention has attracted support, the plan has also drawn criticism from others who say the council has more important issues to deal with, and was being tokenistic on issues that have nothing to do with local government.

The plan is being led by Cr Declan Clausen and comes two years after after the Greens failed in their attempt to have the former Jeff McCloy-led council formally back marriage equality.

Earlier that month, in April 2013, the former lord mayor called police to remove people who were chalking rainbow crossings and slogans onto the footpaths outside City Hall.

Titled ‘‘Equality for Novocastrians’’, Cr Clausen’s move contains six key components which he said aimed to promote the city as a welcoming, all-inclusive and tolerant place committed to human rights and equality.

It includes a call for the council to ‘‘support marriage equality’’ and orders council staff to identify a suitable site for a rainbow crossing and prepare a report on what it would cost.

The crossing might be placed in a park, he said, although he’d prefer to see it on a local road in a place that is meaningful to the region’s gay and lesbian community, such as Beaumont Street at Hamilton.

A similar rainbow crossing created a storm in Sydney, where lord mayor Clover Moore spent $75,000 installing one on Oxford Street during the Mardi Gras festival. It was later removed amid controversy and bureaucratic red tape.

The most recent census figures show Newcastle has the second-highest number of same-sex couples in the state, Cr Clausen said.

It was ‘‘absolutely essential’’ that the council provided support ‘‘even in a symbolic way,’’ he said.

There would ‘‘undoubtedly’’ be critics, he said, ‘‘but council can actually walk and chew gum at the same time’’.

‘‘No one is ignoring the big issues. We’re dealing with any number of things at the same time and they’re all important.’’

Liberal councillor Brad Luke said he has ‘‘no issue’’ with same-sex marriage.

‘‘But I do have an issue with putting rates up 46.9 per cent and then spending money and huge amounts of staff time on issues which have absolutely nothing to do with council,’’ he said.

Greens councillor Michael Osborne said such comments ‘‘dumb down’’ the debate.

‘‘It’s great that this is coming to council and that we can have a policy position that stands up and says we value diversity in our city,’’ he said.

‘‘It’s about us standing up for basic human rights, and not just recognising it, but celebrating it.’’

Lord mayor Nuatali Nelmes said the council should ‘‘celebrate all aspects of our community’’.

‘‘We have multicultural charters and we have monuments which recognise other sectors of our community,’’ she said. ‘‘I fully support something that recognises and supports the LGBTIQ community on what is also a very important social justice issue.

‘‘As far as a rainbow crossing goes, I think it’s a fantastic way of symbolising that support and the diversity of our city.’’

Cr Clausen’s move is co-signed by Cr Nelmes and other Labor colleagues.

It further calls on the council to expand the ‘‘Safe Space Charter’’, which has traditionally provided safe and welcoming places for gay and lesbian people.

It also asks the council to formally back marriage equality and ‘‘encourage support for marriage equality bills before the Commonwealth parliament’’.

The matter will be debated at Tuesday’s council meeting.

[MFKS]

Yawn


Firstly why exactly are the council thinking that of all the things that are ****ed in Newy this is an important project to be embracing??

Secondly these Safe Places old mate talks about. Maybe I live on a different planet but where are the incessant reports of Adam and Steve getting abused harassed assaulted for being Adma and Steve that show us a need that downtown Newy is a war zone for Adam and Steve's???

Is Newy that dangerous a place that we need a spot where these Adam and Steve can go to hang out with Adam and Steve's ?? Are they not allowed to mix in with society like they already do??

Thirdly this stuff about recognising other sectors of the community.
Where the **** is the Griff the Redeemer statue then???

Fans of the Griff not important enough??


Newy Council dealing with First World Problems.
Thank **** I fit into Lake Macquarie where the councillors are never seen or heard

[plague]

Shouldn't the goal be to make the whole city a safe place for everyone?

(Except Gypos who somehow get over the border, **** those people).

[The Dunster]

Newcastle is without a doubt the nastiest place in Australia I have lived once the sun goes down. In my experience it is safer to walk about Cabramatta, Kings Cross, Parramatta, or Bankstown area at night.

The paranoia / xenophobia in Newcastle is something I have never experienced anywhere else. Great place and people during the day but once the sun goes down and the alcohol starts flowing look out.

Doesn't matter if you are gay or straight. Newcastle simply isn't a friendly city after dark.

Council playing the Gay and lesbian card on this issue simply shows how out of touch they are with the reality.

[The Dunster]

Back onto Politics - Bill Shorten is without a doubt the most piss weak leader of a major party for the last 40 years. He hates workers, hates unions, hates small business, and hates multinationals. Where the **** does he think the votes are going to come from ?

Hearing him talking about Emissions trading schemes was a combination of laughable and downright alarming that someone this stupid could ever be considered to lead the country.

The only way to control emissions / pollution is a system of fines for those that break the rules. Not taxes, not another secondary derivatives market like an ETS - just big ass fines for anyone that breaks the rules.

It's that ****ing simple.

[MFKS]

Back onto Politics - Bill Shorten is without a doubt the most piss weak leader of a major party for the last 40 years. He hates workers, hates unions, hates small business, and hates multinationals. Where the **** does he think the votes are going to come from ?

Hearing him talking about Emissions trading schemes was a combination of laughable and downright alarming that someone this stupid could ever be considered to lead the country.

The only way to control emissions / pollution is a system of fines for those that break the rules. Not taxes, not another secondary derivatives market like an ETS - just big ass fines for anyone that breaks the rules.

It's that ****ing simple.

Is the ETS Carbon Tax whatever the **** you want to call it in your opinion about Carbon and the Environment or is it more so to do with the government wanting to raise tax levels and looking for a scape goat.

To me it is all taxation and the reincarnate of the super mining profits tax just in a different outfit

[The Dunster]

Is the ETS Carbon Tax whatever the **** you want to call it in your opinion about Carbon and the Environment or is it more so to do with the government wanting to raise tax levels and looking for a scape goat.

To me it is all taxation and the reincarnate of the super mining profits tax just in a different outfit

Neither. It is a secondary derivatives market for the bond traders and other oxygen thieves to speculate and accumulate wealth amongst themselves without actually creating anything useful that benefits society as a whole.

These government dopes are swallowing the bullshit these khunts feed them hook line and sinker.

[MFKS]

Neither. It is a secondary derivatives market for the bond traders and other oxygen thieves to speculate and accumulate wealth amongst themselves without actually creating anything useful that benefits society as a whole.

These government dopes are swallowing the bullshit these khunts feed them hook line and sinker.

Never looked at it from that angle. Yep will defo happen. The traders out there ain't gonna pass up a gift horse like that.


Government though stands to gain by getting taxation revenue increase. They need to raise taxes as they can't continue down the same path or we as a nation are ****ed and ain't clever enough to sort their shit out.

Make no mistake about it they want the extra money and are putting through an extra tax measure to get it. Problem is the dumb ****s between the Libs and Labour keep using the tax in whatever guise as a political football to point score with the voters instead of working together to get the tax accepted

[plague]

Back onto Politics - Bill Shorten is without a doubt the most piss weak leader of a major party for the last 40 years. He hates workers, hates unions, hates small business, and hates multinationals. Where the **** does he think the votes are going to come from ?

Hearing him talking about Emissions trading schemes was a combination of laughable and downright alarming that someone this stupid could ever be considered to lead the country.

The only way to control emissions / pollution is a system of fines for those that break the rules. Not taxes, not another secondary derivatives market like an ETS - just big ass fines for anyone that breaks the rules.

It's that ****ing simple.

I can not like this post enough.
Seriously, I tried, but it's still not enough.

[hawk]

Newcastle is without a doubt the nastiest place in Australia I have lived once the sun goes down. In my experience it is safer to walk about Cabramatta, Kings Cross, Parramatta, or Bankstown area at night.

The paranoia / xenophobia in Newcastle is something I have never experienced anywhere else. Great place and people during the day but once the sun goes down and the alcohol starts flowing look out.

Doesn't matter if you are gay or straight. Newcastle simply isn't a friendly city after dark.

Council playing the Gay and lesbian card on this issue simply shows how out of touch they are with the reality.

pandering instead of getting important sh1t in order welcome to newy

[Bon]

I wasn't sure where to put this..
But figured since it is a bit on the crazy-snake side of things to chuck it in this thread..
Should make tonights FFA Cup game interesting for the Heidelberg GK..

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/article/2015/07/29/former-roar-keeper-says-afl-star-adam-goodes-should-be-deported

[GazFish35]

griffin is a ****ing idiot.


I like Kevin Airs' request that he remove all mention of 442 from his bio.

[Blackmac79]

Going to boo him all night.

[hawk]

Going to boo him all night.

racist, according to the socialist hippies anyway.

Interestingly as much as we hated hutch we didnt bother booing for too long. booooring

[plague]

I love the fact that all these people on Twitter think they are so good at it yet every one of them breaks the very first rule of Twitter.

[Jeterpool]

I love the fact that all these people on Twitter think they are so good at it yet every one of them breaks the very first rule of Twitter.

Which is what?

[plague]

Which is what?

First rule of Twitter: don't tweet.

[q-money]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKrJ0ujWwAAHP9-.jpg

[The Dunster]

racist, according to the socialist hippies anyway.

The behaviour toward Adam Goodes is an absolute disgrace regardless of anyones political leanings.

If not tolerating racial slurs towards a good person like Adam Goodes makes someone a socialist then I would hope that by that definition everyone is a socialist hippie.

[plague]

Everything about this Adam Goodes stuff is bad and sad.

Once again it just shows that no one wants to talk about racism, they only want to talk about other people talking about racism.

[WolfMan]

The behaviour toward Adam Goodes is an absolute disgrace regardless of anyones political leanings.

If not tolerating racial slurs towards a good person like Adam Goodes makes someone a socialist then I would hope that by that definition everyone is a socialist hippie.

Who cares if they are a good or bad person?

That's like saying only polite women can reasonably expect not to be raped.

[The Dunster]

Who cares if they are a good or bad person?

That's like saying only polite women can reasonably expect not to be raped.

Very good point and I agree. But that's not what I meant.

What I meant by a good person is that the disrespect shown towards Goodes has nothing to do with his character or behaviour on or off the field.

The booing in this case is blatantly racist. If Goodes played not within the spirit of the game, disrespected people, or indeed acted like a lot of Rugby League players seem to off field - then I could understand him being booed by crowds.

[plague]

I can see points made on both sides of the debate yet I don't think any of it is correct.

[q-money]

it's disgraceful. i enjoy a good boo, whether it be matthew breeze, phil stubbins, every knights game, SD, the list goes on - but this is way too far.

the nonsense about he's a dirty player and he "stages for free kicks" doesn't wash. he's had 11 frees on him this year, nowhere near the top of the list, and the booing is worse than ever.

lets have a look - the man got called an ape, and somehow he is racist for drawing attention to it. if it was my kid i'd have clipped them round the ear and marched them down to the fence to apologise to the bloke - but now the girl's a martyr for jones, bolt and devine? jeeeeeezus this country is retarded sometimes.

then a bunch of crybabies in the carlton cheersquad can't handle a dance aimed at them in indigenous round - fmd. grow up you man children. cop it sweet and move on with your lives. people telling him to go back to the zoo...and then saying it's not racist, come on.

australia can't handle the fact that aboriginal people have been treated shockingly for the past 200 years, and now it's in their face thanks to adam goodes, they can't handle it and are looking for any excuse to deny there is a problem.

it's white people telling black people when they are allowed to be offended, and white people blindly ignoring that a great deal of the booing has to do with a shitstorm kicked up over aboriginal issues they refuse to notice exist. not free kicks.

and fer chrissakes - when the notoriously conservative AFL says you're racist, you probably are.

[The Dunster]

I can see points made on both sides of the debate yet I don't think any of it is correct.

Example ?

[GazFish35]

http://www.pedestrian.tv/news/sport/watch-waleed-aly-absolutely-nail-the-adam-goodes-d/5a715856-12c3-471e-90df-44810d585bc8.htm

sums it up well.

all goodes has done is stood up for his rights to be treated with dignity and respect and that his culture recieves the same...... sadly that makes some in this country uncomfortable.




anyone who genuineky doesnt understand why aboriginal australia is still hurting take the time to watch Utopia by John Pilger. It's an eyeopener for some.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfhXIb0W1IU

[plague]

Example ?

I'd say the labelling of 'everyone' who boos are racists.

I reackon there's a good percentage of people booing just because they are told not to boo.
Childish? yes. Bullying? Yes. Racist? Nah.

On the counter, if Goodes 'didn't call out that girl' then we wouldn't have a problem. Rubbish.
Goodes did exactly what we all in society should do, and that's call them out and shame them (edit: and hopefully educate them). The fact she had a poor mother and the cops/security were fairly heavy handed isn't Goodes' fault. Not at all.

The fact that Rebecca Wilson is on one side and Andrew Bolt/Miranda Divine are on the other means we are all losers.

[plague]

Also, from memory didn't another Australian of the Year winner go in pretty hard on race back in the day?
Can't be 100% but thought it was someone a couple of years before Goodes. Anyway I doubt they are getting boo'd in their workplace every day.

[plague]

On another point.
Anthony Mundine has been front and centre of indigenous issues for years and you'd have to say a LOT of people hate his guts but I don't remember anyone booing him being accused of being a racist. That's where this whole grey area exists.


For the record aside from the boxing sideshow persona he puts on to sell tickets I actually like Mundine and what he stands for.

[The Dunster]

On another point.
Anthony Mundine has been front and centre of indigenous issues for years and you'd have to say a LOT of people hate his guts but I don't remember anyone booing him being accused of being a racist. That's where this whole grey area exists.


For the record aside from the boxing sideshow persona he puts on to sell tickets I actually like Mundine and what he stands for.

I think it's because Anthony Mundine is not seen as a serious threat to racist Australian's. Adam Goodes though is a different story.
When Branch Rickey recruited Jackie Robinson for the Dodgers he did so because he was a wonderful athlete and indeed was the type of person many people would aspire to be. There were better baseballers out there [Paige and Gibson] but they were never an option because they could be stereotyped [ though through no fault of their own].

Goodes like Robinson avoids the racist stereotype and for that reason he's a serious threat to the racists.

Mundine [ Who I admire and understand is nothing like the character he portrays for the media] tends to get out of his depth on various issues and can be [ and indeed has been] used to enforce a sterotype that racist Australia are comfortable with.

[parksey]

it's disgraceful. i enjoy a good boo, whether it be matthew breeze, phil stubbins, every knights game, SD, the list goes on - but this is way too far.

the nonsense about he's a dirty player and he "stages for free kicks" doesn't wash. he's had 11 frees on him this year, nowhere near the top of the list, and the booing is worse than ever.

lets have a look - the man got called an ape, and somehow he is racist for drawing attention to it. if it was my kid i'd have clipped them round the ear and marched them down to the fence to apologise to the bloke - but now the girl's a martyr for jones, bolt and devine? jeeeeeezus this country is retarded sometimes.

then a bunch of crybabies in the carlton cheersquad can't handle a dance aimed at them in indigenous round - fmd. grow up you man children. cop it sweet and move on with your lives. people telling him to go back to the zoo...and then saying it's not racist, come on.

australia can't handle the fact that aboriginal people have been treated shockingly for the past 200 years, and now it's in their face thanks to adam goodes, they can't handle it and are looking for any excuse to deny there is a problem.

it's white people telling black people when they are allowed to be offended, and white people blindly ignoring that a great deal of the booing has to do with a shitstorm kicked up over aboriginal issues they refuse to notice exist. not free kicks.

and fer chrissakes - when the notoriously conservative AFL says you're racist, you probably are.

well said.

it is so hard to watch all of the so-called experts in the media come out and give their opinion on the whole thing. a bunch of middle-aged white men who just say things like "the best thing for goodes to do would be to ignore it" like it's something we should accept.

idiots who think it's ok for people to boo just because a lot of people are only doing it because they've been fed a false narrative of goodes being a dirty player or a cheat, or hates white people. they don't want to accept that it all started because of him proudly representing his people by doing that war dance and other people joining in is fueling people who are being racist.

too many australians are ignorant about this issue or just choose not to get involved. we should nuke the place from orbit.

peter fitzsimmons wrote a good article on it this morning. i always thought he was a bit of a kook because of his articles on football but he's done some good work lately.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/the-fitz-files/bravo-adam-goodes-and-shame-on-alan-jones-and-his-acolytes-20150730-gin6zm

[plague]

Although Fitzsimmons once again states the blindingly obvious and reignites his hate for Jones that stretches back decades, I still don't conpletely agree with the notion that 'we' (being 'white people') are upset because an indigenous bloke stood up for himself.

It's been going on for decades and celebrated accordingly from an overwhelming percentage of the population.
No one has copped this level of backlash.

[plague]

Oh and for the record I'm just spitballing here. The ability for me to enter any sort of real debate on this is pointless as I've never called anyone an 'ape' nor have I ever been called an 'ape'.

For me to even begin to understand how that feels would be disingenuous.

My point has always been that everyone seems to deal with these things differently yet the loudest voices in this seem to want to form a neat line down the middle of the debate with a side that is 'right' and a side that is 'wrong'.

[The Dunster]

My point has always been that everyone seems to deal with these things differently yet the loudest voices in this seem to want to form a neat line down the middle of the debate with a side that is 'right' and a side that is 'wrong'.

You must hate the Ayn Rand types almost as much as I do plague.

[q-money]

plus goodesy's a fkn legend

[plague]

I think it's because Anthony Mundine is not seen as a serious threat to racist Australian's. Adam Goodes though is a different story.

See I find this interesting.
Mundine is every bit the model sportsman (aside from the WWE antics) non drinker, family man, does a LOT of charity work yet we just dismiss him for some unknown reason.

And Craig Foster has weighed in (can a supernerdynerd post link pls).
He made a very good point in that if Goodes had done the war dance playing football, we'd pretty much all think it was awesome and we as a fanbase are the most passionate out of all the sports (#fanmade).

I'd say some people just hate athletes showing any level of individuality and flair outside of the skills of the game.
Go back and look at Jason Akermanis now THAT bloke copped some grief.

[q-money]

just remember what you're actually up against when you try and deal with this issue

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLI75lmUwAA55PA.jpg:large

before the internet these people existed in mostly silent, non-contactable stupidity

[plague]

You must hate the Ayn Rand types almost as much as I do plague.

Ok I don't know who Ayn Rand is but I kind of hate everyone in my own weird way so probably yeah.

[WolfMan]

Enjoying reading everyone's take on this. Very interesting.

The issue I have is the holus bolus (sp?) approach, i.e all booers of Goodes are inherently racist.

If the boos are pre or post a racial slur or undertone, those booers are racist. Otherwise, the rest of the boo birds re doing and have done little to no wrong as far as I can see.

Get serious about racism. Start dishing out bans to backwards fans and players who deem it their right to denigrate those that aren't the same as them.

AFL and all sporting bodies have a chance to act in a manner reflective of the ugliness that fuels racism

[plague]

Get serious about racism. Start dishing out bans to backwards fans and players who deem it their right to denigrate those that aren't the same as them.

AFL and all sporting bodies have a chance to act in a manner reflective of the ugliness that fuels racism

Yeah your big problem though is that whilever your Eddie Maguires etc are in positions of power within these organisations ain't shit getting done about nothin.

[MFKS]

So those that choose to boo him because they think he is a complete prat who publically humiliated a 13 year old kid who said an offensive term to him are racist now??

The same term he has most likely heard plenty of times in the past and done nothing about.

From what I see he picked a pretty soft target there to make his stand against.



He chose to publically humilate a child to push an agenda when he could have dealt with her and the matter with a little more class.

[GazFish35]

Publicly humiliate?


It was the indigenous round last year on the 20th anniversary of winmar's stance against the shit he copped.

He called the kid out by pointing to her and having security deal with it.
It happened in a public place, how foes he deal with the incident in any other way..... Other than ignore, which he shouldn't have to.

He then announced the girl needed to be supported and didn't blame her, rather he pointed out her actions were a product of the society she's growing up in that has continued to send a message that what she did was okay.


He didn't publicly humiliate her. She did that all herself.

[plague]

He chose to publically humilate a child to push an agenda when he could have dealt with her and the matter with a little more class.

Hey Member I'm just looking up 'how to handle getting called an ape with class' should I use google or bing?

[Blackmac79]

Oh dear member.

Those who choose to boo him because of a racist little girl, are supporting and saying it's ok for little girls to grow up racist. Maybe that little girl might think before calling an aboriginal an ape next time? Maybe instead of having another systemic racist in our society we have a person who actually thinks before they act in the future.

Goodes should always call out racists be they 13 or 99.

[lquiquer]

Beckham was booed for 3 and a half year at every ground (Even Old Trafford) after being sent off V Argentina @ France98.......it stopped when he scored that free kick which send the "Hereditary Enemy" ( :tongue: ) in 2002 WC.........fair enough skin colour was never in the picture in that example.....but the point is: As a sport figure you must be strong enough to block anything happening outside the pitch (Skin Colour or not involved).......What's the difference calling Hutcho all sort of names (Except he deserves it :lulzturtle:) and what Goodes has been called (? Skin.....and??).....

[plague]

Beckham was booed for 3 and a half year at every ground (Even Old Trafford) after being sent off V Argentina @ France98.......it stopped when he scored that free kick which send the "Hereditary Enemy" ( :tongue: ) in 2002 WC.........fair enough skin colour was never in the picture in that example.....but the point is: As a sport figure you must be strong enough to block anything happening outside the pitch (Skin Colour or not involved).......What's the difference calling Hutcho all sort of names (Except he deserves it :lulzturtle:) and what Goodes has been called (? Skin.....and??).....

Because Beckham could have avoided his sendoff.
Hutcho could avoid being a **** (although he has no choice for being a gypo).
Unless i missed something Goodes didn't get to choose his skin colour.


Also: so which profession should cop it and which shouldn't?
go on, name them.
id like to know where your cutoff point is.

[GazFish35]

The difference is hutch or becks weren't booed for standing up for a culture that has been ostracized and forced to live on the fringes of society since their lands were stolen from them.


The most common defense of the booing is that 'he's a dickhead'

What's he done to deserve being labeled a "dickhead" other than to go against the grain of mainstream Australia and have the balls to stand up to the shit thrown at him and his culture? Have I missed him glassine someone in a pub? being done for dui? abusing refs? taking drugs? Beating his wife? What's he done to be labeled a dickhead or any other label that's been thrown at him besides being a proud aboriginal.

Why does standing up against the way aboriginal Australia has been treated for over 200years mean you get labelled a dickhead?

goodes has tried to shine a light on some of the darkest problems we have as a nation..... And the media and the white majority do what they always do, tell him to shut up.

It's an embarrassment that so many Australians can't see how poorly this whole situation reflects on us all.

[plague]

Publicly humiliate?


It was the indigenous round last year on the 20th anniversary of winmar's stance against the shit he copped.

He called the kid out by pointing to her and having security deal with it.
It happened in a public place, how foes he deal with the incident in any other way..... Other than ignore, which he shouldn't have to.

He then announced the girl needed to be supported and didn't blame her, rather he pointed out her actions were a product of the society she's growing up in that has continued to send a message that what she did was okay.


He didn't publicly humiliate her. She did that all herself.


Also should be noted the girl spoke to Goodes the next day and apologised. Id be pretty sure in thinking she has never called any black man an ape since.
also, when he did the "racism has a face" press conference he didn't name her. in fact she has disappeared from view, her mother should probably follow suit. Not sure why but 2 years on and all of a sudden THATS what the booing is about?
why did it stop for 2 years if everyone was so outraged at his treatment of the girl?

[lquiquer]

Because Beckham could have avoided his sendoff.
Hutcho could avoid being a **** (although he has no choice for being a gypo).
Unless i missed something Goodes didn't get to choose his skin colour.


Also: so which profession should cop it and which shouldn't?
go on, name them.
id like to know where your cutoff point is.

All professions ......the key is be strong enough to ignore the idiots....(very difficult to achieve but prob the best way to silence them)

[plague]

All professions ......the key is be strong enough to ignore the idiots....(very difficult to achieve but prob the best way to silence them)

well going off our current example:
Goodes reacts to the girl. Girls apologises and seems to be not very racist anymore.
Crowd boos, everyone says chill, crowd keeps booing.


I don't think your strategy is working on that one boss.

[lquiquer]

well going off our current example:
Goodes reacts to the girl. Girls apologises and seems to be not very racist anymore.
Crowd boos, everyone says chill, crowd keeps booing.


I don't think your strategy is working on that one boss.

Yeah but you forgot the War Dance champ

[GazFish35]

All professions ......the key is be strong enough to ignore the idiots....(very difficult to achieve but prob the best way to silence them)

if no-one says anything, behaviour ends up deemed acceptable.
When does it become okay to make a stand? Or should all behaviour no matter how abhorrent simply be ignored?


The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing

[GazFish35]

Yeah but you forgot the War Dance champ

And what was wrong with it?

A dance to celebrate a goal that also celebrates his culture in a round of football dedicated to celebrating his culture.... Done towards fans who were giving him shit......good on him.

Plenty of players have reacted to fans taunts before, why can't he?
Or is that fact he used a cultural dance to do it that has so many up in arms? It's the only difference I can see.

[lquiquer]

I actually like the guy, he reacted the way he reacted and he did the war dance.....and whatever else he did..... I got no problem with.......What I'm saying is: that's why he is being booed and by reacting the way he did it's like fuel for the idiots ......He would have ignored it, then we would not be talking about it now.....he chose not to and here we go

[GazFish35]

So it's his fault?

[plague]

Yeah but you forgot the War Dance champ

so high fives, pointing to the sky, screaming your heart out, ripping your shirt off, sliding on your knees, group hugs, falling to the ground, and fist pumps are ok after scoring a goal.
but a traditional dance celebrating your culture during indigenous round isn't.


gotcha.

[belchardo]

Ah ok. I get it now. Goodes is to blame for the racist attitudes of a few in the crowd. Everything is his fault.

[plague]

Ah ok. I get it now. Goodes is to blame for the racist attitudes of a few in the crowd. Everything is his fault.

i dunno, i think a lot of the blame should go to his ancestors too.


yanno


for being so indigenous.

[lquiquer]

So it's his fault?

I'm not trying to tell who's wrong who's right, we both know who's wrong anyway..... I'm only telling you why we are in the situation we are in..... There was 2 ways to go about it: The way it happened and there we are talking about it (and it's good) or my point is he could have gone the other way, ignore it and we wouldn't be talking about it now ( and to me it seems a better way to silence the idiots in a long run).... It will always be difficult to educate the idiots it's better to ignore them (and that might even be a way to start to educate them?)

[plague]

I'm not trying to tell who's wrong who's right, we both know who's wrong anyway..... I'm only telling you why we are in the situation we are in..... There was 2 ways to go about it: The way it happened and there we are talking about it (and it's good) or my point is he could have gone the other way, ignore it and we wouldn't be talking about it now ( and to me it seems a better way to silence the idiots in a long run).... It will always be difficult to educate the idiots it's better to ignore them (and that might even be a way to start to educate them?)

yeah.

and if only Rosa Parks sat her damn butt up the back of the bus like she was supposed to we wouldn't have all this icky civil rights crap to deal with.


gadamnit, next thing all the gays and women will be wanting stuff too.

[GazFish35]

it's better to ignore them

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/kh17EgvBlKsm0bJcUnm3LLj9WYpfSMMNmgUPfNsAr8ZF5c6_z3 aDNkc8tvWGrsiQRzo003vMIs0TRRnSOqGz4aYSOGTDz5YBykEk alLDcaHln1fI-2BzouNw2I3Cs-3xDLd9xHsoOA=w316-h421-nc

In the afl they've been ignoring it for at least 20years.

Nelson Mandela should have just sat in that prison and ignored it all too....


Ignoring this kind of shit only teaches the uneducated that their behavior is acceptable.

[Jetmaster]

Sticks and stones I reckon...

When I was a kid at school back in the dark ages we had a lunchtime "sockah" comp with teams based on our heritage. Those teams were Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, Australia and Indigenous. We didn't call them that - it was Wogs, Spicks, Yugos, Aussies and Abbos, names agreeable with all. The insults during those games would get you hauled before a court these days but not one soul ever took offence. I was once called a "fat gorilla" - what is the difference between that and being called an "ape"?

I agree we need to be tolerant but we are going too far to the other side......guys like Laurie Cunningham, Clyde Best, Paul Cannoville and Cyrill Regis went through far more hell than Goodes, just for being black. Nicer guys you could not meet. Now that indigenous footballers around the nation are coming up with "solidarity" gestures the divide is widening, not closing. I would not boo him but I do not like Goodes or agree with what he is doing - for some reason that makes me a "racist", which I know I am not.

[belchardo]

I agree we need to be tolerant but we are going too far to the other side......guys like Laurie Cunningham, Clyde Best, Paul Cannoville and Cyrill Regis went through far more hell than Goodes, just for being black.

perhaps Goodes recognises the hell those guys went through, is grateful for them doing that and wants to make sure that the next generation don't go through the hell that he had to go through, lesser though it is than of previous generations.

and as for making you a racist, well that would all depend on the reasons for your dislike. why do you not like him? what about him do you dislike? why do you disagree with what he is doing? and what do you think he is actually doing? I've not really had anybody explain to me yet what they have a problem with.

[q-money]

Sticks and stones I reckon...

When I was a kid at school back in the dark ages we had a lunchtime "sockah" comp with teams based on our heritage. Those teams were Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, Australia and Indigenous. We didn't call them that - it was Wogs, Spicks, Yugos, Aussies and Abbos, names agreeable with all. The insults during those games would get you hauled before a court these days but not one soul ever took offence. I was once called a "fat gorilla" - what is the difference between that and being called an "ape"?

I agree we need to be tolerant but we are going too far to the other side......guys like Laurie Cunningham, Clyde Best, Paul Cannoville and Cyrill Regis went through far more hell than Goodes, just for being black. Nicer guys you could not meet. Now that indigenous footballers around the nation are coming up with "solidarity" gestures the divide is widening, not closing. I would not boo him but I do not like Goodes or agree with what he is doing - for some reason that makes me a "racist", which I know I am not.

i understand this comparison - when you're all on the schoolyard together, for the most part everyone is equal. the shit flows around and no-one takes offence - but are you a wog, spick or an abo?

when you're off the yard - it's back to a completely different power dynamic. the wogs, the spicks and the abos for the most part are discriminated against compared to those who are in the dominant group.

those dealing out the epithets don't really get to decide what is racist and what isn't - it's the person on the receiving end of it.

i agree with you that you aren't a racist, and to paint everyone who's ever booed goodes as one is part of the problem here.

when you call people things, they don't like it - no-one likes being called a racist, especially if they aren't. quite similar to what goodes is going through now. he's not an ape, he's not a monkey - he's a bloke. just like you taking offence at being called racist, he has a right to take offence to being called an ape.

anyway not trying to give a lecture to you, everyone is their own person, and like you said - you can't just chuck people into the racist/non-racist buckets based on one situation - just throwing around ideas.

[parksey]

So those that choose to boo him because they think he is a complete prat who publically humiliated a 13 year old kid who said an offensive term to him are racist now??

The same term he has most likely heard plenty of times in the past and done nothing about.

From what I see he picked a pretty soft target there to make his stand against.



He chose to publically humilate a child to push an agenda when he could have dealt with her and the matter with a little more class.

deary me

[q-money]

also re: sticks and stones...

this was collingwood's response to michael long calling out the fact monkhorst called him a black c*nt

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OiW9e0jVHbo/UamomDaqttI/AAAAAAAAICI/oX3BAhufLyg/s1600/1995_Collingwood+banner_Sticks+&+Stones_sRGB.800.jpg

unbelievable ay, this was 1995

[belchardo]

bit from Barrie Cassidy's latest piece for the drum. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-31/cassidy-bishop-goodes/6660554


The Adam Goodes matter is more disturbing because so many people don't get it; so many people insist it is the responsibility of Goodes and the Indigenous footballers to fix.

There is so much ignorance, intolerance and even blatant racism in the debate around whether it is OK to randomly boo Goodes every time he touches the football.

But let's take the short cut to most of that by detailing the rantings of former A League goalkeeper, Griffin McMaster, who created a Twitter storm when he suggested that because Goodes called Australia Day, Invasion Day, he should be deported.

It's not clear precisely where he should be deported to, but we'll carry on.

McMaster now works in the media and has contributed to the football magazine, FourFourTwo. Its editor, Kevin Airs, demanded McMaster remove any reference to the magazine from his biography.

This is how the Twitter conversation went after that.

McMaster: "No problems Kevin."
Airs: "That is an incredibly stupid and ignorant tweet Griffin. I'm disappointed anyone in football would think like that."
McMaster: "Disrespect his country and you cop it. I'm not happy with the way he's going about things."
Airs: "His family have been here 40,000 years. If you don't like it, you leave. He's not dissing his country. He's proud of it."
McMaster: "Australian government bend over for indigenous. Free interest loans, free uni degrees. Even said sorry and he's still going on."
Airs: "He's not 'going on'. He's playing AFL and celebrating when he scores."
McMaster: "He doesn't celebrate Australia Day. Un-Australian ... that's why I'm not happy."
When you boo, remember that's the calibre of those who join you.

Let's hope Goodes has the courage for one more statement. Play again, if only once. To walk away now would leave this issue unresolved, forever staining the game.

An orchestrated roar of support the next time Goodes touches the ball - from thousands of supporters opposed to the Swans - will start to right this appalling episode.

If that doesn't happen, he will leave the game a shattered man. And thousands might leave with him.


well said.

[The Dunster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Lu6FCVkNs&feature=player_embedded

He knew sfa when it came to economics but when it comes to beating down John Howard nobody does it better.

[slobsy]

also re: sticks and stones...

this was collingwood's response to michael long calling out the fact monkhorst called him a black c*nt

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OiW9e0jVHbo/UamomDaqttI/AAAAAAAAICI/oX3BAhufLyg/s1600/1995_Collingwood+banner_Sticks+&+Stones_sRGB.800.jpg

unbelievable ay, this was 1995

is that supposed to be a dummy? unbeleivable.....

[plague]

i understand this comparison - when you're all on the schoolyard together, for the most part everyone is equal. the shit flows around and no-one takes offence - but are you a wog, spick or an abo?

when you're off the yard - it's back to a completely different power dynamic. the wogs, the spicks and the abos for the most part are discriminated against compared to those who are in the dominant group.

those dealing out the epithets don't really get to decide what is racist and what isn't - it's the person on the receiving end of it.

i agree with you that you aren't a racist, and to paint everyone who's ever booed goodes as one is part of the problem here.

when you call people things, they don't like it - no-one likes being called a racist, especially if they aren't. quite similar to what goodes is going through now. he's not an ape, he's not a monkey - he's a bloke. just like you taking offence at being called racist, he has a right to take offence to being called an ape.

anyway not trying to give a lecture to you, everyone is their own person, and like you said - you can't just chuck people into the racist/non-racist buckets based on one situation - just throwing around ideas.

Serious thought if this was printed on the ISIS flag and tattooed on everyone's shoulder where thier Southern Cross ink is the world would be a much better place,

[GazFish35]

http://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/the-project/the-side-project/the-depressing-message-from-the-boo-saga

[Bremsstrahlung]

Genuinely curious:
How do we know the boo's from the crowd are actually racist? ( i feel we will have a better idea after this round)
Like fair enough, he's had some incidents that revolve around race, but there's also an argument going around that it's due to his playing style e.g. AFL's equivalent of diving for free kicks/being soft/in the refs ear.
(Don't get me wrong, i'm against the boo's if in fact they are due to him standing up for his race/heritage/ancestors/fellow indigenous, but if they are purely directed at him and his football antics, fair game). I know there's probably some people boo-ing him for the former, and some booing for the latter, but part of the problem is that he is labelling them all as one. So if you are booing him as he's one of the swans best players/dives/gets free kicks, and Goodes comes out and says the boos are racist. Then this becomes a grey area. It's like Hutcho coming out and saying he's sad that people boo him, and then says they are booing because he's maltese. Or Sterling blaming the boo's he received in Melbourne on race. It is an important issue, and he's not the first player to react.
Balotelli, Frimpong (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdTRAh0XDJw) and numerous other footballers have reacted to racist slurs/chant/actions and have consequently been boo-ed and jeered as a result.

We will see what happens this weekend with Goodes (if he plays). After the AFL, AFL Captains and all the media, other sports have urged fans not to boo him as he believes it is racist and he is being affected by this, it will be interesting to see the reaction he gets.
Do these statements therefore make those that boo a racist for consciously booing (which is now associated with racist stigma)?
Either way, i think it would be really nice to see some universal cheers/applause when he gets the ball. I think that would seriously be the best move for all involved.

[Blackmac79]

Genuinely curious:
How do we know the boo's from the crowd are actually racist? ( i feel we will have a better idea after this round)
Like fair enough, he's had some incidents that revolve around race, but there's also an argument going around that it's due to his playing style e.g. AFL's equivalent of diving for free kicks/being soft/in the refs ear.
(Don't get me wrong, i'm against the boo's if in fact they are due to him standing up for his race/heritage/ancestors/fellow indigenous, but if they are purely directed at him and his football antics, fair game). I know there's probably some people boo-ing him for the former, and some booing for the latter, but part of the problem is that he is labelling them all as one. So if you are booing him as he's one of the swans best players/dives/gets free kicks, and Goodes comes out and says the boos are racist. Then this becomes a grey area. It's like Hutcho coming out and saying he's sad that people boo him, and then says they are booing because he's maltese. Or Sterling blaming the boo's he received in Melbourne on race. It is an important issue, and he's not the first player to react.
Balotelli, Frimpong (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdTRAh0XDJw) and numerous other footballers have reacted to racist slurs/chant/actions and have consequently been boo-ed and jeered as a result.

We will see what happens this weekend with Goodes (if he plays). After the AFL, AFL Captains and all the media, other sports have urged fans not to boo him as he believes it is racist and he is being affected by this, it will be interesting to see the reaction he gets.
Do these statements therefore make those that boo a racist for consciously booing (which is now associated with racist stigma)?
Either way, i think it would be really nice to see some universal cheers/applause when he gets the ball. I think that would seriously be the best move for all involved.

The majority (I hope) are not booing because he is aboriginal and he has climbed out of his box. I think most are just joining in the "mob mentality", what is scary about this though is there is obviously a critical mass of racist fans who are large enough to get enough of the crowd to do it too that this becomes an issue.

Those booing just because it's what fans now do to Adam are now providing a smoke screen for the racists, protection almost for them.

[furns]

So those that choose to boo him because they think he is a complete prat who publically humiliated a 13 year old kid who said an offensive term to him are racist now??

The same term he has most likely heard plenty of times in the past and done nothing about.

From what I see he picked a pretty soft target there to make his stand against.



He chose to publically humilate a child to push an agenda when he could have dealt with her and the matter with a little more class.

Check out the link Gaz posted a couple of posts up. Then check out the video clip of Waleed Aly on the The Project who went through the whole situation with the 13 yr old girl.

Then realize you are completely and utterly wrong.

[hawk]

Ross Lyon the grub and his stupid generalist comments that arent needed to further stir the pot. Weve all booed someone more than once.

[stopper2]

Check out the link Gaz posted a couple of posts up. Then check out the video clip of Waleed Aly on the The Project who went through the whole situation with the 13 yr old girl.

Then realize you are completely and utterly wrong.

It's been well-documented in the past few days on social media, in blogs, newspaper articles that after the ape calling incident with the 13 year old girl that the girl apologised to him and also wrote a letter to him, he did not wish to press charges and made it clear it was not her fault and that he explained to her why it is offensive to him to be called an ape. The situation was dealt with admirably by Goodes and should never have re-surfaced.

Those saying there is nothing wrong with getting booed at constantly game after game, or being called an ape, a gorilla or a black c*&^t are basically talking shit and should just once think what it would be like to be in this man's shoes. Growing up and having to put up with racist jibes and now as an Australian of the Year and someone who has taken a stand so that others might not have to put up with the same rubbish, he has now been hounded practically out of the game by a seething, uneducated mob who don't like what he stands for and want him to shut up and be a good little abbo.

The reaction yesterday in Sydney though was very encouraging and shows that maybe the tide could be turning, that enough is enough. Goodes is a good, decent man, he has not assaulted anyone, or raped a woman, done drugs, been caught DUI like a lot of AFL or NRL players who have but are seemingly quickly forgiven and everyone gets on with life. He does not deserve to be targeted and humiliated at every away match like he is some arsehole.

[stopper2]

Genuinely curious:
How do we know the boo's from the crowd are actually racist? ( i feel we will have a better idea after this round)
Like fair enough, he's had some incidents that revolve around race, but there's also an argument going around that it's due to his playing style e.g. AFL's equivalent of diving for free kicks/being soft/in the refs ear.
(Don't get me wrong, i'm against the boo's if in fact they are due to him standing up for his race/heritage/ancestors/fellow indigenous, but if they are purely directed at him and his football antics, fair game). I know there's probably some people boo-ing him for the former, and some booing for the latter, but part of the problem is that he is labelling them all as one. So if you are booing him as he's one of the swans best players/dives/gets free kicks, and Goodes comes out and says the boos are racist. Then this becomes a grey area. It's like Hutcho coming out and saying he's sad that people boo him, and then says they are booing because he's maltese. Or Sterling blaming the boo's he received in Melbourne on race. It is an important issue, and he's not the first player to react.
Balotelli, Frimpong (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdTRAh0XDJw) and numerous other footballers have reacted to racist slurs/chant/actions and have consequently been boo-ed and jeered as a result.

We will see what happens this weekend with Goodes (if he plays). After the AFL, AFL Captains and all the media, other sports have urged fans not to boo him as he believes it is racist and he is being affected by this, it will be interesting to see the reaction he gets.
Do these statements therefore make those that boo a racist for consciously booing (which is now associated with racist stigma)?
Either way, i think it would be really nice to see some universal cheers/applause when he gets the ball. I think that would seriously be the best move for all involved.

Some interesting points but I have read somewhere that it is a myth about him "milking penalties", that for someone who is supposedly good at doing it he has actually received a very low amount of penalties from referees over the years. You see the mob mentality will make up anything to justify their actions for singling out a player, some say it is because of the 13 year old girl, others his outspokenness but why hound the guy for the whole game???
The comparison with Hutch is like chalk and cheese, yes Jets supporters gave him a hard time over the years but I don't think other supporters dished it out to him. I think he actually enjoyed the attention but I don't think I ever heard someone yell "go back home ya wog".....in reference to his Maltese heritage. Goodes just last week was told "go back to the zoo", big difference being booed or heckled and then a racist slur being aimed at you.
There is no comparison in Australian sport history what Goodes has endured throughout this season so please stop trying to make comparisons or say there are grey areas because it is pretty well "black and white"....pardon the pun!

[MFKS]

Check out the link Gaz posted a couple of posts up. Then check out the video clip of Waleed Aly on the The Project who went through the whole situation with the 13 yr old girl.

Then realize you are completely and utterly wrong.

What makes you think I wish to listen to a word from that hypocritical beyond reproach leftist stooge??

That bloke has nothing to say that isn't propaganda for a cause

[lquiquer]

but I don't think I ever heard someone yell "go back home ya wog".....in reference to his Maltese heritage.
For sure Labi would have :lulz:

[belchardo]

Well there you go, bronwyn bishop resigned. Probably because she was distracting people from shorten rather than she feels she's done anything wrong.

[GazFish35]

What makes you think I wish to listen to a word from that hypocritical beyond reproach leftist stooge??

That bloke has nothing to say that isn't propaganda for a cause

Lol. Me or waleed?

[plague]

Well there you go, bronwyn bishop resigned. Probably because she was distracting people from shorten rather than she feels she's done anything wrong.

Yep.
lets just hope she's set a precedent and anyone else busted for the same stuff also fall on their sword.

It will wipe them out quicker than the virus in World War Z.

[GazFish35]

Distracting people from shorten?

My concern is what was going on that she really was distracting us all from.

[The Dunster]

Shorten is a complete waste of space like the rest of his party. Best thing Labour could do would be to phone the electoral office and ask that they be deregistered by the close of business Monday.

[plague]

ok, i haven't been up to date as of late.
but.
i hear the comrades are adopting big Scotty Moz's boat policy, but the Greens are against it.

are the Greens and Labor a coalition? (i was under the assumption that the 2 party pref poll was based on Lab/Grn alliance).

Has anyone asked the question if they will go to the election with a united stance on this policy or will it be carbon tax part 2?

[stopper2]

Shorten is a complete waste of space like the rest of his party. Best thing Labour could do would be to phone the electoral office and ask that they be deregistered by the close of business Monday.

That's why politics has become a joke in this country. The Abbott Government is probably the worst in history but the alternative is not much better. If there was a truly viable 3rd choice, I reckon most Aussies would give them a go because neither the LNP coalition or Labour inspire any sort of confidence that they have a vision for the future of this country.

[pv4]

That's why politics has become a joke in this country. The Abbott Government is probably the worst in history but the alternative is not much better. If there was a truly viable 3rd choice, I reckon most Aussies would give them a go because neither the LNP coalition or Labour inspire any sort of confidence that they have a vision for the future of this country.

PUP is the logical choice.

[plague]

The Abbott Government is probably the worst in history

and what do you base this assumption on?

[MFKS]

Lol. Me or waleed?

Waleed if I wasn't clear enough

[plague]

See, I don't believe that Waleed Aly 'totally nailed it' either.

Firstly he implied the booing (and racism) began with the war dance, when in fact it had been going on for a few weeks prior.

Everyone keeps talking about 'minorities' in this discussion.
The only 'minority' that should be singled out is the .1% of the population booing Goodes. The other 99.9% of Aussies either support him or don't care enough to get involved. But the first sign of a minuscule percentage of 'us' doing the wrong thing means the usual fart sniffers jump to the old 'see, all da whities is raycess' line.

Single out the booers, shame them and hopefully they see the error of thier ways. It worked with the 13 yr old chick apparently.

Blokes like him and Rebecca Wilson just want to stare down the TV and say 'see, this is YOUR fault'.

No, it's the people booing Goodes. That's who's fault it is. Find them and it goes away.
Continue to lump your average Joe into the same group and you're gonna get pushback.

[The Dunster]

and what do you base this assumption on?

By their very own drunken sailor criteria for spending the current government are a failure.

Government spending as a percentage of GDP is higher under Abbott than it was under any labour government back to and including Whitlam.

Oddly enough, it is this very spending that is keeping the country from falling down the shitter.

The problem with any of these parties is their ideolgical / religous beliefs are far stronger than any commitment they have to the science behind their decisions or indeed any facts that might get in the way.

[plague]

By their very own drunken sailor criteria for spending the current government are a failure.

Government spending as a percentage of GDP is higher under Abbott than it was under any labour government back to and including Whitlam.

Oddly enough, it is this very spending that is keeping the country from falling down the shitter.

The problem with any of these parties is their ideolgical / religous beliefs are far stronger than any commitment they have to the science behind their decisions or indeed any facts that might get in the way.

Yeah I'd say you could go back and find some economic category that statistically a particular govt would be poorly rated on.
You'd be able to prob find social policy failures from each one as well.
Let alone foreign policy disasters/failings.

It just intrigues me when someone is adamant that one in particular is "the worst".

Like saying which coastie is the biggest **** innit?

[WolfMan]

Yeah but you forgot the War Dance champ

You must hate the African Cup of Nations then...

[plague]

You must hate the African Cup of Nations then...

Hey man, don't forget about all those people hating on the Haka.

They even do the throat slitting gesture and everyone is cool with it.

But Goodes, yep it's def the war dance that has earned him all this hate.

[stopper2]

and what do you base this assumption on?

No vision at all for the future
Selling our land off to overseas interests
Selling our jobs off to overseas interests
etc etc I could go on but I'll give an example of a guy I know who is a Manager for a company involved in the Manufacturing industry.
During the years of the Gillard government he absolutley despised her and was ecstatic when she got shafted and then Rudd was ousted.
Now under Abbott he says that WE ARE WORSE OFF and he is totally despondent with the way this country is heading....need I say anymore!

[plague]

1.No vision at all for the future
2.Selling our land off to overseas interests
3.Selling our jobs off to overseas interests
etc etc 4.I could go on but I'll give an example of a guy I know who is a Manager for a company involved in the Manufacturing industry.
During the years of the Gillard government he absolutley despised her and was ecstatic when she got shafted and then Rudd was ousted.
Now under Abbott he says that WE ARE WORSE OFF and he is totally despondent with the way this country is heading....need I say anymore!

oh man, I've numbered these so we can go through them one by one.
1. No vision? As opposed to the land of milk and honey we've been on track for for the past 115 years? You may come to find that Pollies are awesome at 'saying' they are gonna do something and actually going through with it. (i.e they are all full of shit).

2. OK dude, you may want to go back and look at who actually owns all this prime farming land that is getting sold off. You might find an overwhelming % is privately owned (i.e farming folks and private companies). They have decided to take the best offer they can for their assets. I can only imagine you would be sweet when you are selling your house that the Govt came in and made you take less (or not be allowed to sell it) despite someone offering you over the odds. Yep, I'm sure you'd be all like "yeah cool cool ill take the financial hit TO KEEP DEM DARN CHINESE OUT OF OUR SUBURBS GADAMNIT".

3. The jobs you speak of are generally in the manufacturing industry yeah? cool, well then go look at Your car, fridge, tv, phone, clothes etc etc etc. The jobs aren't going anywhere because of the govt, they are going OS because people like you and me buy shit cause its cheaper to get it from OS. you want tariffs back? protectionist policies. dear oh dear, lets just build Donald Trumps wall and be done with it. dang foreigners.

4. OK, so one dude out of a population of 24 odd million is not a good sample size. but anyway, can you define the term "better off". because people equate that with cash in hand at the end of every week. try factoring in health care, national security, your retirement, roads, environment, education etc etc etc. just cause its not in your hand every week doesn't mean its not being spent on you.


im ok with your generalisations but seriously dude, think a bit more about the way the world works before spouting nonsense like this. to act like none of this isn't our fault is naive.

[The Dunster]

oh man, I've numbered these so we can go through them one by one.
1. No vision? As opposed to the land of milk and honey we've been on track for for the past 115 years? You may come to find that Pollies are awesome at 'saying' they are gonna do something and actually going through with it. (i.e they are all full of shit).

2. OK dude, you may want to go back and look at who actually owns all this prime farming land that is getting sold off. You might find an overwhelming % is privately owned (i.e farming folks and private companies). They have decided to take the best offer they can for their assets. I can only imagine you would be sweet when you are selling your house that the Govt came in and made you take less (or not be allowed to sell it) despite someone offering you over the odds. Yep, I'm sure you'd be all like "yeah cool cool ill take the financial hit TO KEEP DEM DARN CHINESE OUT OF OUR SUBURBS GADAMNIT".

3. The jobs you speak of are generally in the manufacturing industry yeah? cool, well then go look at Your car, fridge, tv, phone, clothes etc etc etc. The jobs aren't going anywhere because of the govt, they are going OS because people like you and me buy shit cause its cheaper to get it from OS. you want tariffs back? protectionist policies. dear oh dear, lets just build Donald Trumps wall and be done with it. dang foreigners.

4. OK, so one dude out of a population of 24 odd million is not a good sample size. but anyway, can you define the term "better off". because people equate that with cash in hand at the end of every week. try factoring in health care, national security, your retirement, roads, environment, education etc etc etc. just cause its not in your hand every week doesn't mean its not being spent on you.


im ok with your generalisations but seriously dude, think a bit more about the way the world works before spouting nonsense like this. to act like none of this isn't our fault is naive.

1. Governments vision is whatever the top 1% of wealth holders tell them it is.
2. You are forgetting that groups succesfully lobbied the Howard administration for changes to super and the like which artificially doubled the prices of land / houses overnight.
3. The models of free trade are little more than text book wankery. Once you introduce money, uncertainty, product differentiation, and finite supply and demand constraints things aren't quite so cherry. You are arguing against tarriffs from a perspective where tarrifs are what lined the pockets of those currently praising free trade.
If the world ran like a textbook than certainly free trade with nil tariffs would be the way to go - but that's not how the world works.
4. I would determine life expectancy as the best guide to peoples well being. Many, many indexes of human well-being exist with varying degrees of relevance.
Currently governments are not spending enough on healthcare, jobs... and so on.

[plague]

2. You are forgetting that groups succesfully lobbied the Howard administration for changes to super and the like which artificially doubled the prices of land / houses overnight.


4. I would determine life expectancy as the best guide to peoples well being. Many, many indexes of human well-being exist with varying degrees of relevance.
Currently governments are not spending enough on healthcare, jobs... and so on.


2. Increased house prices were great for sellers, bad for buyers. Great for govt with increased revenues from stamp duty, good for people wanting to use equity to fund investments.

No one is forcing anyone to fork over $1/2 million for a one bedder in Iso. You want to snap up cheap real estate, do your homework, change your expectations. Whinging ain't gonna lower those prices.

Tariffs are great for some, bad for others.

Heck, there's even a helicopter company out there who think that Pollies abusing their travel allowances is great.

People crying at pollies for spending $5k on a helicopter ride won't bat an eyelid at spending $20b of 'their' money on submarines regardless of the price we can get them for elsewhere.

(Selective outrage just makes me giggle).

My gripe is that people who think that every government policy should be beneficial to everyone are delusional.


4. This is probably the best answer to this question I've ever heard. Cheers.

[The Dunster]

I don't have a problem with Bronwyn Bishop spending 5k on a helicopter ride.

The spending adds to aggregate demand and via a multiplier effect incomes increase.

What I do have a problem with is Bronwyn Bishop preaching about the importance of reduced spending here and there - without even the most basic understanding of the economics behind her ideological ramblings.

[plague]

I don't have a problem with Bronwyn Bishop spending 5k on a helicopter ride.

The spending adds to aggregate demand and via a multiplier effect incomes increase.

What I do have a problem with is Bronwyn Bishop preaching about the importance of reduced spending here and there - without even the most basic understanding of the economics behind her ideological ramblings.

Amen.

[q-money]

No one is forcing anyone to fork over $1/2 million for a one bedder in Iso. You want to snap up cheap real estate, do your homework, change your expectations. Whinging ain't gonna lower those prices.
all well and good if you live in newy - wanna house in sydney where your job requires you to be? fcken forget it pal, 500k won't even get you a car-space an hour's commute away.

bet you live in a mansion like hawk as well ay

[Bon]

all well and good if you live in newy - wanna house in sydney where your job requires you to be? fcken forget it pal, 500k won't even get you a car-space an hour's commute away.

bet you live in a mansion like hawk as well ay

Bloody hawk.. Always flaunting his wad.. :rof:

[The Dunster]

all well and good if you live in newy - wanna house in sydney where your job requires you to be? fcken forget it pal, 500k won't even get you a car-space an hour's commute away.

bet you live in a mansion like hawk as well ay

I was at Castle Hill until the mid 80's. It's a long way from town but even in 1984 - $250k didn't get you a mansion. To put it in perspective if you were bringing home $600 a week in 1984 you were doing pretty well.

It's going to be interesting for nurses, teachers, social workers... and so on in the future. Where will they live ? They won't be able to live close to the city unless they marry well ? They will also be burdened my massive education debts ... and so on.

[The Dunster]

Bloody hawk.. Always flaunting his wad.. :rof:

Inventing Microsoft Windows was no small feat though. Money well deserved.

[GazFish35]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-04/indigenous-constitution-recognition/6669776?WT.mc_id=Innovation_News%7CTonyAbbottFaces FurtherBacklashFollowingRejectionOfIndigenousConst itutionalRecognitionTalks_FBP%7Cabc


Prime Minister Tony Abbott is facing further criticism after rejecting the idea of Indigenous-led talks on constitutional recognition.

Several Aboriginal leaders want an Indigenous consensus on reform, before wider community consultations take place.

Indigenous leaders Patrick Dodson, Noel Pearson, Kirstie Parker and Megan Davis created a proposal for a series of conventions to allow Indigenous people to have their say first.

But Mr Abbott said there was a "risk" an Indigenous-only process might produce something close to a "log of claims".

"My anxiety about a separate Indigenous process is that it jars with a notion of finally substituting 'we' for 'them and us'," Mr Abbott wrote to the group.

"I am in favour of building consensus, but strongly believe this should be a national consensus in favour of a particular form of recognition rather than simply an Indigenous one.

"The risk with an Indigenous-only — or even an Indigenous-first — process is that it might produce something akin to a log of claims that is unlikely to receive general support.

"I accept these community conferences need to take place in a way that give Indigenous people ample opportunity to have their say."

Ms Parker, the co-chair of the National Congress of Australia's First Peoples, said she was dismayed by Mr Abbott's comments.

What do you think? Should the Government adopt the proposal or is there too much 'risk'? Have your say.
"The Prime Minister's talked about a more general process that we don't think is satisfactory, will make it difficult if not impossible for our people to arrive at some sort of broad position in any direction," Ms Parker said.

"What [Indigenous-only consultation] hopefully will lead to is an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander broad position.

"We are not giving up on the request that we've made to Government on this."

Ms Parker disagreed the proposal might lead to something like a "log of claims".

Prime Minister Tony Abbott talks to the media at a doorstop press conference after after addressing guests in Adelaide
PHOTO Prime Minister Tony Abbott said there was a "risk" an Indigenous-only process might produce something close to a "log of claims".

AAP IMAGE: BEN MACMAHON
"It's unfortunate to see it couched in that way because it really is ensuring that the people this referendum is about have a say in the sort of matters that are taken up in it," she said.

Indigenous leaders at the Garma Festival in East Arnhem Land yesterday expressed disappointment Mr Abbott did not accept the plan.

The ABC last night sought comment from Indigenous Affairs Minister Nigel Scullion and the co-chair of the constitutional recognition parliamentary committee, Liberal MP Ken Wyatt.

Opposition Indigenous affairs spokesman Shayne Neumann tweeted: "How deeply disappointing the PM has not accepted the proposal of respected Indigenous leaders."

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten said the proposal needed to be considered.

"We need to remain flexible on how we achieve constitutional recognition," he said.

"Part of that is ensuring Indigenous Australians have their views genuinely heard.

"I encourage Mr Abbott to keep an open mind about this proposal."

What's Abbott scared of?
Why can't the the leaders of the longest continuous culture be afforded the respect of being allowed to lead discussions on how they are recognized by the constitution.

What message does it send when what Abbott really wants is to dictate terms.... "Well recognize you, but only in the way we see fit"

Geezus **** I wish this country would grow up, leadership of our nation is embarrassing.

[The Dunster]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-04/indigenous-constitution-recognition/6669776?WT.mc_id=Innovation_News%7CTonyAbbottFaces FurtherBacklashFollowingRejectionOfIndigenousConst itutionalRecognitionTalks_FBP%7Cabc



What's Abbott scared of?
Why can't the the leaders of the longest continuous culture be afforded the respect of being allowed to lead discussions on how they are recognized by the constitution.

What message does it send when what Abbott really wants is to dictate terms.... "Well recognize you, but only in the way we see fit"

Geezus **** I wish this country would grow up, leadership of our nation is embarrassing.

The very existence of the Aboriginal people kicks seven shades of shit out of his religous beliefs.

[plague]

What's Abbott scared of?
Why can't the the leaders of the longest continuous culture be afforded the respect of being allowed to lead discussions on how they are recognized by the constitution.

What message does it send when what Abbott really wants is to dictate terms.... "Well recognize you, but only in the way we see fit"

Geezus **** I wish this country would grow up, leadership of our nation is embarrassing.

So we want to promote togetherness by first isolating ourselves?

Looks like a bigger issue of distrust on both sides.

Besides, I thought the 'sorry' ceremony solved all this nasty division stuff?

Don't tell me I've been lied to all these years.

[plague]

The very existence of the Aboriginal people kicks seven shades of shit out of his religous beliefs.
Hahahahaha.

Very good sir.

[plague]

all well and good if you live in newy - wanna house in sydney where your job requires you to be? fcken forget it pal, 500k won't even get you a car-space an hour's commute away.

bet you live in a mansion like hawk as well ay

Oh I agree, but there are other ways around it, and they generally involve huge sacrifices in order to get the end result you are after.

I certainly don't live where I want to ultimately be, but for now I'm within my means and working towards something.

I don't know anyone that has it 100% thier way (apart from Hawk it seems) so we all gotta make decisions.

I just hate the notion that people are out there blaming the Gubmint because they can't get what they want.

[q-money]

i blame boomer scum, need another vietnam to sort them out

[plague]

i blame boomer scum, need another vietnam to sort them out

Easier still.
Pick where you want to live.
Submit plans to council to build a mosque.
Watch values fall as everyone gets in a tizz.
Put in your offer.

[The Dunster]

Oh I agree, but there are other ways around it, and they generally involve huge sacrifices in order to get the end result you are after.

I certainly don't live where I want to ultimately be, but for now I'm within my means and working towards something.

I don't know anyone that has it 100% thier way (apart from Hawk it seems) so we all gotta make decisions.

I just hate the notion that people are out there blaming the Gubmint because they can't get what they want.

The data suggests otherwise. Many people through no fault of their own cannot find jobs, or are working for wages well below what they are legally entitled to. There are also many business owners who are legally forced to pay more than they can afford or are servicing contracts for values which barely meet their costs of production.

Productivity gains over the past 40 years have essentially gone to the capitalist classes rather than the workers [ You can put most small business owners in with workers].
This means that while wages have grown they have not grown as fast as output.
When you look at the lower end of the wages spectrum they are not keeping pace.
The consequence is that wages incomes are insufficient to buy the goods and services available for sale.
Therefore, without resorting to credit - inventories will build up, production will wind back.. and unemployment results.
The role of government traditionally has been to fill the spending gap via fiscal policy.
This tradition was broken by the banking sector who lobbied governments to engage in what is called fiscal consolidation.
Fiscal consolidation is good for banks as it forces people to use credit.
Another issue is the banking sector have also effectively lobbied to keep the return on deposits lower than the returns on their banks shares.
This means lower interest rates tempt people to invest in bank shares rather than merely deposit the money into an account.
Bank share prices increase.... and......so on.

This is the problem. Government do a hell of a lot for the top end of town and sfa for small business and workers.

I live well below my means but many are not so lucky.

[GazFish35]

So we want to promote togetherness by first isolating ourselves?

Looks like a bigger issue of distrust on both sides.

Besides, I thought the 'sorry' ceremony solved all this nasty division stuff?

Don't tell me I've been lied to all these years.

Indigenous leaders want to lead the discussion.
Abbott is the one using "indigenous-only" discussions.

And who out of the two groups might be most likely to not trust the other?

[pv4]

i blame boomer scum, need another vietnam to sort them out

Hey m8 what did Andrew Gaze ever do to you

[plague]

And who out of the two groups might be most likely to not trust the other?

Dunno.
And nor do you.
But it's always easy to blame Tony Abbott for everything that's going on in the world innit?

Geez, I even read today that he hasn't 'done enough' in the Adam Goodes saga.

FMD the bloke is a pickle at times but once you get that rep you ain't ever shaking it huh?

[plague]

The data suggests otherwise. Many people through no fault of their own cannot find jobs, or are working for wages well below what they are legally entitled to. There are also many business owners who are legally forced to pay more than they can afford or are servicing contracts for values which barely meet their costs of production.

Productivity gains over the past 40 years have essentially gone to the capitalist classes rather than the workers [ You can put most small business owners in with workers].
This means that while wages have grown they have not grown as fast as output.
When you look at the lower end of the wages spectrum they are not keeping pace.
The consequence is that wages incomes are insufficient to buy the goods and services available for sale.
Therefore, without resorting to credit - inventories will build up, production will wind back.. and unemployment results.
The role of government traditionally has been to fill the spending gap via fiscal policy.
This tradition was broken by the banking sector who lobbied governments to engage in what is called fiscal consolidation.
Fiscal consolidation is good for banks as it forces people to use credit.
Another issue is the banking sector have also effectively lobbied to keep the return on deposits lower than the returns on their banks shares.
This means lower interest rates tempt people to invest in bank shares rather than merely deposit the money into an account.
Bank share prices increase.... and......so on.

This is the problem. Government do a hell of a lot for the top end of town and sfa for small business and workers.

I live well below my means but many are not so lucky.

Everything you said could be 100% true but I will never alter my belief that the human endeavour and desire to succeed and achieve will get anyone anything they want if they really want it.

People can blame everyone and every thing for the woes in their life and forever stay in their lane.

Others don't see it that way and have done something about it.

whichever way people want it I'm cool with. I just won't have people crying about it.

[plague]

Also you might want to consider that all sides of politics are sporting the change to the referendum.

Painting it as Abbott disagrees is a bit cheeky.

Not much attention was paid to the quote regarding a general consensus giving the changes the best chance of being passed by the general public (who will have final say).

Go back and look at why the referendum on the Republic failed despite everyone kinda sorta wanting it to happen.

Maybe people learned some lessons from that.

[The Dunster]

Everything you said could be 100% true but I will never alter my belief that the human endeavour and desire to succeed and achieve will get anyone anything they want if they really want it.

People can blame everyone and every thing for the woes in their life and forever stay in their lane.

Others don't see it that way and have done something about it.

whichever way people want it I'm cool with. I just won't have people crying about it.

The barriers for many are a lot greater than you imagine. To imply they are not trying hard enough only demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part.
People can apply for several thousand jobs that they are more than capable of being able to do and not get a single job offer.
Others can apply for jobs they are not capable or qualified to do and be offered the job on the spot.

I've had students that were dumb as a box of rocks walk into jobs in the finance sector earning well into six figures and yet seen other students far more capable not even be offered interviews for lesser positions. Didn't go to the right school, wrong address, tits too small, ass too big / small, not confident enough, didn't smile enough, too quiet, not the right cultural fit... the list goes on.

There comes a point where everyone exhausts their options and simply gives in - and for many people several thousand rejections for employment is not uncommon.

I'd be willing to bet you would have given up long before many others had you been forced to walk in their shoes.

I'm glad you haven't reached this point but many people have and for them you should probably show some empathy.

The most important factor too success often comes down to good old fashion luck.

The richest man to have ever lived would never have become so were it not for a civil war breaking out between the north and the south. His little tobacco selling business boomed as the demand for the product by soldiers escalated. Once the confict subsided he had plenty of money and decided to buy into this new venture where oil was extracted from the ground......
the rest is history.

Were it not for the civil war, and the discovery of oil, and the stupidity of the US government introducing the Sherman ACT - JD Rockefeller would not have become the first billionaire in history.
Note: selling out his own brother certainly helped get him there as well.

[GazFish35]

Also you might want to consider that all sides of politics are sporting the change to the referendum.

Painting it as Abbott disagrees is a bit cheeky.

Not much attention was paid to the quote regarding a general consensus giving the changes the best chance of being passed by the general public (who will have final say).

Go back and look at why the referendum on the Republic failed despite everyone kinda sorta wanting it to happen.

Maybe people learned some lessons from that.


Who's painting it that abbots doesn't agree with the referendum?

Indigenous leaders want to lead the discussion to come to conseus before the poll.

Abbott has said he doesn't want it to run that way and uses emotive language to paint the idea of indigenous leadership being given the opportunity to lead this important discussion as one that will lead to trouble.


Happy to take "Abbott" out of this whole discussion and my point still stands leadership in this country on important issues such as the treatment of our indigenous peoples is an embarrassment to this nation. KRudd's (sorry to name names) apology on behalf of the parliament and people excluded.

[plague]

To imply they are not trying hard enough only demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part.

People can apply for several thousand jobs that they are more than capable of being able to do and not get a single job offer.

Didn't go to the right school, wrong address, tits too small, ass too big / small, not confident enough, didn't smile enough, too quiet, not the right cultural fit... the list goes on.


I'd be willing to bet you would have given up long before many others had you been forced to walk in their shoes.


Not about not trying hard enough. I just believe that good things happen to good people. I'm not down on anybody. Quite the opposite, I'd fall over myself helping people get what they want, I like to see people happy.

I know you are overstating just a shade but in reality if someone is failing thousands of interviews then I'd say something is seriously wrong with thier approach and or expectations. I don't agree with the whole "well I studied 5 years to be an accountant therefore I will only work as an accountant I'm not prepared to do otherwise". Sometimes you gotta go a couple steps back to go a few forward. (Well according to Paula Abdul anyway).

Failing criteria like wrong school etc is all too common (and sad, and unfair, and infuriating) but I'd flip it around and ask why someone would want to be involved in an organisation so elitist? Wanting a job with people like that kind of exposes your own desires to be 'one of them', encouraging the behaviour.

Man, I was at that 'Newcastle club' with a friends dad once, the nonsense that group of wankers went on with was truly embarrassing. Why anyone would want to be involved in something like that astounds me.

I've never had a chance to 'give up'. I've never had a proper job interview in my life. I have zero bits of paper to tell everyone how good I am at anything in particular. I chose a path to go down living my life and not having qualifications or a leg up has made it difficult. But things are working out so I'm happy, and if they change then you reset and go again.

[The Dunster]

Not about not trying hard enough. I just believe that good things happen to good people. I'm not down on anybody. Quite the opposite, I'd fall over myself helping people get what they want, I like to see people happy.

I know you are overstating just a shade but in reality if someone is failing thousands of interviews then I'd say something is seriously wrong with thier approach and or expectations. I don't agree with the whole "well I studied 5 years to be an accountant therefore I will only work as an accountant I'm not prepared to do otherwise". Sometimes you gotta go a couple steps back to go a few forward. (Well according to Paula Abdul anyway).

Failing criteria like wrong school etc is all too common (and sad, and unfair, and infuriating) but I'd flip it around and ask why someone would want to be involved in an organisation so elitist? Wanting a job with people like that kind of exposes your own desires to be 'one of them', encouraging the behaviour.

Man, I was at that 'Newcastle club' with a friends dad once, the nonsense that group of wankers went on with was truly embarrassing. Why anyone would want to be involved in something like that astounds me.

I've never had a chance to 'give up'. I've never had a proper job interview in my life. I have zero bits of paper to tell everyone how good I am at anything in particular. I chose a path to go down living my life and not having qualifications or a leg up has made it difficult. But things are working out so I'm happy, and if they change then you reset and go again.

I became a university lecturer simply because I drank beers on a thursday with the right people. It had nothing to do with ability or hard work.
I got out of it for reasons similar to what you describe with the "Newcastle Club".
I now work in a low wage job and I am having the time of my life.

[plague]

Who's painting it that abbots doesn't agree with the referendum?

Indigenous leaders want to lead the discussion to come to conseus before the poll.

Abbott has said he doesn't want it to run that way and uses emotive language to paint the idea of indigenous leadership being given the opportunity to lead this important discussion as one that will lead to trouble.


Happy to take "Abbott" out of this whole discussion and my point still stands leadership in this country on important issues such as the treatment of our indigenous peoples is an embarrassment to this nation. KRudd's (sorry to name names) apology on behalf of the parliament and people excluded.

I'd say the ABC article was def painting it as Abbott derailing the process.

As I said about the Republic referendum, they did the same thing. The biggest criticism was that they did it all their own way and gave a half assed proposal to the public. Even though the polls said it was something we wanted it got voted down because it wasn't thorough enough.

I read the article as Abbott saying lets get it right so people will understand and 'want' to vote it in.

Whichever way you look at it the constitution is a 'white fella' document. It is rightly being changed to include all Australians but ask yourself how it will be perceived by the 'white fella population' if only one part of the population was in charge of it.

Sadly a fair bit of politics and compromise needs to be played here. At least one pollie is having an opinion on it, unlike the flour and water paste that comes out of Shortens mouth in that article. Pollies are so friggin scared of offending someone these days their public statements are generally so lame. If they captained our football teams it would take them half an hour to decide which way to run because they'd need to run it past the focus group first.


But serious question: in your mind exactly what did Rudds apology achieve? and do you think it has made things better/worse or the same for indigenous Australians?

[plague]

I became a university lecturer simply because I drank beers on a thursday with the right people. It had nothing to do with ability or hard work.
I got out of it for reasons similar to what you describe with the "Newcastle Club".
I now work in a low wage job and I am having the time of my life.

So that's my point. You went one way, you weren't happy, so you changed.
You won.

I just wish more people looked at that as the goal rather than status/money/adulation from people they don't like anyway.

[q-money]

easy to say when you live in a mansion

[stopper2]

oh man, I've numbered these so we can go through them one by one.
1. No vision? As opposed to the land of milk and honey we've been on track for for the past 115 years? You may come to find that Pollies are awesome at 'saying' they are gonna do something and actually going through with it. (i.e they are all full of shit).

2. OK dude, you may want to go back and look at who actually owns all this prime farming land that is getting sold off. You might find an overwhelming % is privately owned (i.e farming folks and private companies). They have decided to take the best offer they can for their assets. I can only imagine you would be sweet when you are selling your house that the Govt came in and made you take less (or not be allowed to sell it) despite someone offering you over the odds. Yep, I'm sure you'd be all like "yeah cool cool ill take the financial hit TO KEEP DEM DARN CHINESE OUT OF OUR SUBURBS GADAMNIT".

3. The jobs you speak of are generally in the manufacturing industry yeah? cool, well then go look at Your car, fridge, tv, phone, clothes etc etc etc. The jobs aren't going anywhere because of the govt, they are going OS because people like you and me buy shit cause its cheaper to get it from OS. you want tariffs back? protectionist policies. dear oh dear, lets just build Donald Trumps wall and be done with it. dang foreigners.

4. OK, so one dude out of a population of 24 odd million is not a good sample size. but anyway, can you define the term "better off". because people equate that with cash in hand at the end of every week. try factoring in health care, national security, your retirement, roads, environment, education etc etc etc. just cause its not in your hand every week doesn't mean its not being spent on you.


im ok with your generalisations but seriously dude, think a bit more about the way the world works before spouting nonsense like this. to act like none of this isn't our fault is naive.

Gee mate, you went to all that trouble to come up with that right wing Murdoch rubbish!!!
Like I said a person high up in a Management role has a low opinion of this Abbott Government but you seem to know better

[Buddha]

Out of both Abbott and Bull Shitten, i'd rather none of them. I fear for the future under either, Shorten has no balls to come up with his own Policies and looks like a startled deer in front of the Cameras.

That being said as soon as they asked me to jump id ask them how high

Loss/Loss situation

[plague]

Gee mate, you went to all that trouble to come up with that right wing Murdoch rubbish!!!
Like I said a person high up in a Management role has a low opinion of this Abbott Government but you seem to know better

hey, good for you. the way you copied and pasted one of the Members posts yet somehow got the mirror image to reflect the other side.

thats a talent.

well in.

serious though i do hope you survive the next 18 months before the Abbott govt gets turfed.

[plague]

and seeing as though I'm unfamiliar with the 'Murdoch right wing rubbish' you speak of maybe you can go back and explain your original point.

(oh, and YOUR thoughts please, not the musings of your manager mate).

[snake]

I became a university lecturer simply because I drank beers on a thursday with the right people. It had nothing to do with ability or hard work.

what was the situation like back then? now, you're up against wunderkids with h-index of a billion and a zillion publications and 10 book chapters by age 28. no chance competing against that level of game :'(

[MFKS]

Indigenous leaders want to lead the discussion.
Abbott is the one using "indigenous-only" discussions.

And who out of the two groups might be most likely to not trust the other?
If they wish to keep differentiating themselves we will never get anywhere.

They are as Australian as you or me.

High time they accepted that they are Australian and we can all move on and forward.

This constant bringing up of the past achieves little but more division

To me the ball is in the court of the Aboriginal community to instigate change.
They for some reason feel the need to constantly pass it to the government to sort this situation out.

Change will not come until they are prepared to accept some realities they ignore

[The Dunster]

If they wish to keep differentiating themselves we will never get anywhere.

They are as Australian as you or me.

High time they accepted that they are Australian and we can all move on and forward.

This constant bringing up of the past achieves little but more division

To me the ball is in the court of the Aboriginal community to instigate change.
They for some reason feel the need to constantly pass it to the government to sort this situation out.

Change will not come until they are prepared to accept some realities they ignore

When a very small percentage of Aboriginals were accused of crimes against children entire communities were shut down before any due process was entered into. The end result being that absolutely no charges were ever laid against a single person.

In the case of the Catholic Church the government and powers that be did not place a lockdown on all members of the catholic church for similar crimes by a small percentage of the church.

It's hardly a level playing field.

[The Dunster]

So that's my point. You went one way, you weren't happy, so you changed.
You won.

I just wish more people looked at that as the goal rather than status/money/adulation from people they don't like anyway.

I was lucky the dice fell in my favour. A lot of people have no such luck. Some people have little education, no family or network of friends.. and so on. Some people can do it on their own but a lot of people simply can't and our current society rather than help them wants to lay the boot into them and accept no responsibility for the plight of others less fortunate.


I know you are overstating just a shade but in reality if someone is failing thousands of interviews then I'd say something is seriously wrong with thier approach and or expectations. I don't agree with the whole "well I studied 5 years to be an accountant therefore I will only work as an accountant I'm not prepared to do otherwise". Sometimes you gotta go a couple steps back to go a few forward. (Well according to Paula Abdul anyway).

The evidence does not support your theory. Once someone with a degree accepts a shit job they tend to be behind the eight-ball from then on.
If someone has a shit job to start with then does a degree they can move forward a lot easier.

However, go to the right school and know the right people and you can get work as an intern at the RBA and places of that ilk when people with 1st class honours degrees in economics or accounting won't even get an interview let alone an internship.

So to say people need to go a couple of steps back is simply avoiding the real problem.

The labour market is rampantly discriminative and productivity, skill, hard work.. and so on mean sweet **** all.

[plague]

Once someone with a degree accepts a shit job they tend to be behind the eight-ball from then on.

The labour market is rampantly discriminative and productivity, skill, hard work.. and so on mean sweet **** all.

See, the real problem I have is the use of the term 'shit job', as if it's 'below' some people to work jobs their fancy bits of paper tell them they don't deserve.

These are the same people that look down their nose at Gerry Harvey the door to door vacuum salesman but would grovel at the feet of Gerry Harvey the billionaire even though Harvey is the same bloke doing the same job.

I have zero ****ing pity for those people and tend to find them the most miserable because they somehow feel they deserve more.

And if hard work skill and productivity mean nowt then I must be the luckiest son of a bitch alive and not even realise.

[plague]

And HOW DARE you question Paula Abdul!!!!!

[The Dunster]

See, the real problem I have is the use of the term 'shit job', as if it's 'below' some people to work jobs their fancy bits of paper tell them they don't deserve.

These are the same people that look down their nose at Gerry Harvey the door to door vacuum salesman but would grovel at the feet of Gerry Harvey the billionaire even though Harvey is the same bloke doing the same job.

I have zero ****ing pity for those people and tend to find them the most miserable because they somehow feel they deserve more.

And if hard work skill and productivity mean nowt then I must be the luckiest son of a bitch alive and not even realise.

You don't have a clue.

Unemployment and underemployment are due to insufficient aggregate demand.
It has nothing to do with people being snobbish about the types of jobs they accept.
The problem is that HR types flag anyone that takes a lesser job as either being inferior or indeed lazy and not wanting to progress.
That's why the job is shit. Not because one form of emplyment is better or worse in my eyes.
Often it is better to be unemployed than tarnish your reputation [in the eyes of HR types]
I retired over twelve years ago from academia. If I wanted to go back I could very easily do so.
However, were it to be known I had worked in lesser emplyments nobody would touch me with a bargepole.
I'd be better off saying I been on holidays for over a decade.
The other problem is that a lot of people are forced to obtain degrees to gain emplyoment that doesn't require a degree.
Alternatively, a lot of people hold offices they don't have the correct training for but are gifted the role due to little more than breeding.
I look down at Gerry Harvey not because he sold vaccums I do it because he's a hypocrite. The seeling vaccums is something to be proud of
On one hand he wants people to buy Australian and on the other he's in Bed with Italian / Chinese manufacturers and lobbying the government to allow him to bring in foreign labour that he can pay less than award conditions would otherwise allow.
If Harvey is your hero you have set the bar very low indeed.
For the record I don't have anytime for people with masters degrees unless they did so after obtaining first class honours in a relevant degree.
With respect to PhD's I know what it's like and have a lot of respect for anyone that's has done the grind even if I disagree with them.
There is nothing more rigorous, mentally and or emotionally taxing than completing your doctorate.
Those that do it and keep a marriage and family together are miracle workers. It ain't easy like you seem to assume.

[plague]

You don't have a clue.

Unemployment and underemployment are due to insufficient aggregate demand.
It has nothing to do with people being snobbish about the types of jobs they accept.
The problem is that HR types flag anyone that takes a lesser job as either being inferior or indeed lazy and not wanting to progress.
That's why the job is shit. Not because one form of emplyment is better or worse in my eyes.
Often it is better to be unemployed than tarnish your reputation [in the eyes of HR types]
I retired over twelve years ago from academia. If I wanted to go back I could very easily do so.
However, were it to be known I had worked in lesser emplyments nobody would touch me with a bargepole.
I'd be better off saying I been on holidays for over a decade.
The other problem is that a lot of people are forced to obtain degrees to gain emplyoment that doesn't require a degree.
Alternatively, a lot of people hold offices they don't have the correct training for but are gifted the role due to little more than breeding.
I look down at Gerry Harvey not because he sold vaccums I do it because he's a hypocrite. The seeling vaccums is something to be proud of
On one hand he wants people to buy Australian and on the other he's in Bed with Italian / Chinese manufacturers and lobbying the government to allow him to bring in foreign labour that he can pay less than award conditions would otherwise allow.
If Harvey is your hero you have set the bar very low indeed.
For the record I don't have anytime for people with masters degrees unless they did so after obtaining first class honours in a relevant degree.
With respect to PhD's I know what it's like and have a lot of respect for anyone that's has done the grind even if I disagree with them.
There is nothing more rigorous, mentally and or emotionally taxing than completing your doctorate.
Those that do it and keep a marriage and family together are miracle workers. It ain't easy like you seem to assume.

Well all I can say is thank **** I don't live in your world.

and if 'not having a clue' has got me this far, then heaven help the world if I ever get one.

[The Dunster]

Well all I can say is thank **** I don't live in your world.

and if 'not having a clue' has got me this far, then heaven help the world if I ever get one.

The sad thing is we are going to end up with a massive skills shortage because people simply won't want to take a punt on education / training unless they are going to be gifted a position before they even start a degree. Even TAFE training now that they are pricing it up yet winding the quality down is bcoming less of an option for many.

For the gregarious types it won't matter so much as they will be able to talk their way up the ladder. For the quiet, reserved and shy types like myself and many others who rely on results to seperate us from the crowd I'd say the future is bleak to say the least.

If I was a twenty something these days I'd be shitting myself about the future. Fortunately, I had a lot of help along the way - help which these days doesn't appear to exist anymore.

Nothing is more true than ignorance being bliss.

[Blackmac79]

Gosh damn Dunster. I can't say I disagree with you, but as I am going for a position shortly based on nothing but my own skill, knowledge and hard work you have got me all depressed.

[The Dunster]

Gosh damn Dunster. I can't say I disagree with you, but as I am going for a position shortly based on nothing but my own skill, knowledge and hard work you have got me all depressed.

my motivational skills are piss poor even on my best day. Sorry about that.

[boz-monaut]

why is it only people who weren't smart enough for university who deride qualifications as 'a bit of paper'?

[plague]

why is it only people who weren't smart enough for university who deride qualifications as 'a bit of paper'?

nah, its just a colloquial term. no offence intended. Mrs Plague has a couple of degrees and she is way smarter than me.

it was more about some people I've met in my time thinking that a degree is a better achievement than a trade or a small business. i rate them all the same to be honest, but most importantly i don't think one is more important than the other (nor would our world survive without all 3).

[plague]

If I was a twenty something these days I'd be shitting myself about the future.


You mean a world where Lexus have developed a Hoverboard?
no good sir, the future looks amazing............
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--KAEhTCec--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1371118436104582693.gif

[The Dunster]

nah, its just a colloquial term. no offence intended. Mrs Plague has a couple of degrees and she is way smarter than me.

http://samdesignarchitect.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Picture74.jpg

[plague]

http://samdesignarchitect.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Picture74.jpg

Due to previous good behaviour I'll grant you that one.

[MFKS]

why is it only people who weren't smart enough for university who deride qualifications as 'a bit of paper'?

I was smart enough for University.

Didn't wish to go.

Still a bit of paper that means **** all to me.

The world is about people who can do it and people who can't do it.


That piece of paper means absolutely **** all in your ability to do it or not.

[hawk]

Pollies are so friggin scared of offending someone these days their public statements are generally so lame. ?

Thats most of the population mate.

So a whitey, blacky and greeny walk into a bar they sit down and have a drink and a share a few yarns cause thats how a large majority of Aussies get along.

[hawk]

I was smart enough for University.

Didn't wish to go.

Still a bit of paper that means **** all to me.

The world is about people who can do it and people who can't do it.


That piece of paper means absolutely **** all in your ability to do it or not.

That bit of a paper gets you in the door to have a crack at it.

btw dont even try talking up how good ya kid is if they are in law. Anyone who gets out and earns a living is a champ.

[lquiquer]

I was smart enough for University.

Didn't wish to go.

Still a bit of paper that means **** all to me.

The world is about people who can do it and people who can't do it.


That piece of paper means absolutely **** all in your ability to do it or not.

God damn right ..... Example : I got a post graduate diploma (Sydney Uni) and don't even have a degree.... And I'm French ..... :fright: work that one out Boz..... Bit of paper mate..... :popcorn:

[MFKS]

That bit of a paper gets you in the door to have a crack at it.

btw dont even try talking up how good ya kid is if they are in law. Anyone who gets out and earns a living is a champ.
Your right it gets you in the door.

Then it is up to you.

The paper though just blacklists the majority from certain professions.

You could have the best person in the world to be a surgeon.
Accurate decision making, steady hands, cool as Griff nerve etc.
Poor bloke though is not stupid but not good enough to get into medical degree an he has no chance of ever working as a Surgeon


Then you get some one who is academically smart but may not have the nerve, decision making skills, steady hands etc then they licence them to slice ****s open.

Go ****ing figure the stupidity of stopping people from working in a profession they are capable of doing well and accepting people who may not be as good based ONLY on their academic level of achievement??

[plague]

Your right it gets you in the door.

Then it is up to you.

The paper though just blacklists the majority from certain professions.

You could have the best person in the world to be a surgeon.
Accurate decision making, steady hands, cool as Griff nerve etc.
Poor bloke though is not stupid but not good enough to get into medical degree an he has no chance of ever working as a Surgeon


Then you get some one who is academically smart but may not have the nerve, decision making skills, steady hands etc then they licence them to slice ****s open.

Go ****ing figure the stupidity of stopping people from working in a profession they are capable of doing well and accepting people who may not be as good based ONLY on their academic level of achievement??

please please please don't be this silly.

you want a world full of Dr Nick Riviera's?

[lquiquer]

please please please don't be this silly.

you want a world full of Dr Nick Riviera's?

Stop it Plague u going to get yourself skin failure mate

[WolfMan]

please please please don't be this silly.

you want a world full of Dr Nick Riviera's?

Wouldn't mind seeing a few Mr, McGreg's running about, to be fair

[plague]

Wouldn't mind seeing a few Mr, McGreg's running about, to be fair

Well technically Mr McGreg can't actually 'run' that well.

But I know what you mean.

[MFKS]

please please please don't be this silly.

you want a world full of Dr Nick Riviera's?

Not about Dr Nick etc

I would rather we seen people employed in areas more suited to their ACTUAL talents rather than based on an alleged level of intelligence achieved by what is an under performing area and that is the Education departments of Australia which leave a lot to be desired for results for all students

[plague]

I would rather we seen people employed in areas more suited to their ACTUAL talents rather than based on an alleged level of intelligence achieved by what is an under performing area and that is the Education departments of Australia which leave a lot to be desired for results for all students

sadly though, some people have a much higher opinion of their ability than others do.


if only there was some place they could all go to determine which ones are suitable for the specific tasks.................

[WolfMan]

sadly though, some people have a much higher opinion of their ability than others do.


if only there was some place they could all go to determine which ones are suitable for the specific tasks.................

Communist alert! Lol

[Retro Jet]

Your right it gets you in the door.

Then it is up to you.

The paper though just blacklists the majority from certain professions.

You could have the best person in the world to be a surgeon.
Accurate decision making, steady hands, cool as Griff nerve etc.
Poor bloke though is not stupid but not good enough to get into medical degree an he has no chance of ever working as a Surgeon


Then you get some one who is academically smart but may not have the nerve, decision making skills, steady hands etc then they licence them to slice ****s open.

Go ****ing figure the stupidity of stopping people from working in a profession they are capable of doing well and accepting people who may not be as good based ONLY on their academic level of achievement??

I've seen a few orthopedic surgeons at a place I used to work (electronics w/shop)
come in the door asking to get something fixed that they had already 'had a crack at'.
Seeing them with a screwdriver in their hand and how they used it was scarry stuff.
Should make them do the equivalent of BHP apprentice training for 6months.
THAT will sort out the hand skills with tools at least.

[belchardo]

I've seen a few orthopedic surgeons at a place I used to work (electronics w/shop)
come in the door asking to get something fixed that they had already 'had a crack at'.
Seeing them with a screwdriver in their hand and how they used it was scarry stuff.
Should make them do the equivalent of BHP apprentice training for 6months.
THAT will sort out the hand skills with tools at least.

please tell me you did that deliberately.

[GazFish35]

If they wish to keep differentiating themselves we will never get anywhere.

They are as Australian as you or me.

High time they accepted that they are Australian and we can all move on and forward.

This constant bringing up of the past achieves little but more division

To me the ball is in the court of the Aboriginal community to instigate change.
They for some reason feel the need to constantly pass it to the government to sort this situation out.

Change will not come until they are prepared to accept some realities they ignore

"This constant bringing up of the past achieves little but more division"
Complete BS.

It's the constant ignoring of the past by non-indigenous Australia that causes the division.

Aboriginal Australia has been attempting to instigate change for decades, but government policy limiting self determination has impeded this.

For decades, centuries even, government policy and action has not been about listening to, or respecting aboriginal culture or people, but controlling it.

Indigenous Australians deserve far greater respect than they have been afforded since 1788 and allowing them to speak openly and freely of the way they would like to represented in the constitution should be only another step forward. Having the rest of us tell them "here's your options, pick the best we give you" isn't acceptable for a culture with a longer continuous history than any other on the planet. It's an insult and and embarrassment.

What realities are Aboriginal Australia ignoring?

From what I see, and from those in my community that I speak to, the realities are being faced, and in many communities they are being overcome, largely through community based leadership and open dialogue. Not overriding government control.


The indigenous leaders in this article aren't asking for control of the constitutional change process. They're asking for open dialogue and being able to lead the discussions towards consensus. Why should that be held from them?

[GazFish35]

But serious question: in your mind exactly what did Rudds apology achieve? and do you think it has made things better/worse or the same for indigenous Australians?

It was no silver bullet, but it's opened dialogue and improved understanding within younger generations.
Sadly, not in all areas of the nation.

I had the privilege of watching the apology in a room with 400+ kids of varying cultural backgrounds and a number of aboriginal community leaders and the profound impact it had on the individuals in the room - many directly impacted by the stolen generations - can not be understated, nor the impact it had the collective understanding of the impacts the government policies had and still have on aboriginal people.

It's was a very important step forward for improving things for Aboriginal Australians.

[furns]

To answer an earlier question about why the Abbott government is the worst in history - here's some stats
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/is-tony-abbotts-regime-the-worst-federal-government-ever-20150803-giqtnx.html

[MFKS]

"This constant bringing up of the past achieves little but more division"
Complete BS.

It's the constant ignoring of the past by non-indigenous Australia that causes the division.

Aboriginal Australia has been attempting to instigate change for decades, but government policy limiting self determination has impeded this.

For decades, centuries even, government policy and action has not been about listening to, or respecting aboriginal culture or people, but controlling it.

Indigenous Australians deserve far greater respect than they have been afforded since 1788 and allowing them to speak openly and freely of the way they would like to represented in the constitution should be only another step forward. Having the rest of us tell them "here's your options, pick the best we give you" isn't acceptable for a culture with a longer continuous history than any other on the planet. It's an insult and and embarrassment.

What realities are Aboriginal Australia ignoring?

From what I see, and from those in my community that I speak to, the realities are being faced, and in many communities they are being overcome, largely through community based leadership and open dialogue. Not overriding government control.


The indigenous leaders in this article aren't asking for control of the constitutional change process. They're asking for open dialogue and being able to lead the discussions towards consensus. Why should that be held from them?
Constant ignoring of the past that causes the divisions is the problem you say.

I was born 190 years after Invasion Day. Can you enlighten me as to what I am to be sorry for being that I took no part in it??

I was also born well after Stolen Generation stuff ceased being practice in Australia. Why exactly am I responsible for this??


Does anyone who is German and was born after 1945 have to apoligise constantly for what their ancestors done between 1938-1945??

[plague]

To answer an earlier question about why the Abbott government is the worst in history - here's some stats
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/is-tony-abbotts-regime-the-worst-federal-government-ever-20150803-giqtnx.html

That's quite possibly the most embarrassing overreach I've ever seen.
Did you read the article?
Young spent the whole article saying 'well this could mean anything and there's a whole bunch of factors I've kind of glossed over but THEY SUCK!!!'.

So you want to talk about not passing legislation that BOTH parties went to the last election with but Lab/Grn blocked in the senate even though it was their own policy?

What you've posted there is no better than Andrew Bolt denying the stolen generation, he's got plenty of facts to back his argument.
But it's just the bits he leaves out that are a bit of an inconvenience.

If you're gonna ride for shit like this you have no grounds to complain about the Murdoch ****s in the future.

[plague]

It was no silver bullet, but it's opened dialogue and improved understanding within younger generations.
Sadly, not in all areas of the nation.

I had the privilege of watching the apology in a room with 400+ kids of varying cultural backgrounds and a number of aboriginal community leaders and the profound impact it had on the individuals in the room - many directly impacted by the stolen generations - can not be understated, nor the impact it had the collective understanding of the impacts the government policies had and still have on aboriginal people.

It's was a very important step forward for improving things for Aboriginal Australians.

Yeah I've no doubt that as a gesture it meant a hell of a lot to a lot of people.
I actually wish Howard had done it. It's going to stain a lot of people's opinions of him.

But now we are what 7-8 years on do you think we are any better off?
See, I'd have loved the apology to be part of a much bigger reform in order to lift education standards, mortality rates etc. I just don't think enough was done at a time when everyone was focusing on the issue.
I wish Twiggy Forrests' approach was adopted across a broader range of industry but here we are all that time later and have we really done a thing?

[plague]

This Donald Trump stuff fascinates me.

[GazFish35]

Constant ignoring of the past that causes the divisions is the problem you say.

I was born 190 years after Invasion Day. Can you enlighten me as to what I am to be sorry for being that I took no part in it??

I was also born well after Stolen Generation stuff ceased being practice in Australia. Why exactly am I responsible for this??


Does anyone who is German and was born after 1945 have to apoligise constantly for what their ancestors done between 1938-1945??


Being sorry that something happened and acknowledging the impact an event has had, and continues to have had doesn't make you responsible.

When a friend loses a family member, most people acknowledge the losses and pain caused by saying "I'm sorry" it doesn't mean they killed the person.

And while you may not have taken part in the first fleets arrival, you've no doubt benefited from it. Benefits that came at the detriment of others, from land being taken and cultures destroyed.

I didn't steal William Tyrell from his front yard, but I'd still offer condolences and respect the pain and suffering his family feel..... Multiply that one child being taken, by thousands and thousands, over decades, and by the government.... I reckon acknowledging things were ****ed up is just the start.


Born well after it all happened? How old are you?
Kids were still being taken well into the 70's and some of the homes that they were sent to were still operating in the 1980's


The impact of these policies is still being felt today, aboriginal culture is strong in kinship and connection to country, many indigenous people have had those links torn from them.


You're right, the modern day Germans shouldn't have to appolgise for the actions of their forefathers in the war years, but as a nation they don't it didn't happen, denying the halocaust is a crime..... Why is okay to ignore the genocide that occurred here?

[GazFish35]

Yeah I've no doubt that as a gesture it meant a hell of a lot to a lot of people.
I actually wish Howard had done it. It's going to stain a lot of people's opinions of him.

But now we are what 7-8 years on do you think we are any better off?
See, I'd have loved the apology to be part of a much bigger reform in order to lift education standards, mortality rates etc. I just don't think enough was done at a time when everyone was focusing on the issue.
I wish Twiggy Forrests' approach was adopted across a broader range of industry but here we are all that time later and have we really done a thing?


I do think we are better off, though. Agree the ball was dropped..... But that was Rudd all over.

If it wasn't for the apology we'd not be having this constitutional reform discussion.

[plague]

If it wasn't for the apology we'd not be having this constitutional reform discussion.

Excellent point.
Cheers.

[MFKS]

Being sorry that something happened and acknowledging the impact an event has had, and continues to have had doesn't make you responsible.

When a friend loses a family member, most people acknowledge the losses and pain caused by saying "I'm sorry" it doesn't mean they killed the person.

And while you may not have taken part in the first fleets arrival, you've no doubt benefited from it. Benefits that came at the detriment of others, from land being taken and cultures destroyed.

I didn't steal William Tyrell from his front yard, but I'd still offer condolences and respect the pain and suffering his family feel..... Multiply that one child being taken, by thousands and thousands, over decades, and by the government.... I reckon acknowledging things were ****ed up is just the start.


Born well after it all happened? How old are you?
Kids were still being taken well into the 70's and some of the homes that they were sent to were still operating in the 1980's


The impact of these policies is still being felt today, aboriginal culture is strong in kinship and connection to country, many indigenous people have had those links torn from them.


You're right, the modern day Germans shouldn't have to appolgise for the actions of their forefathers in the war years, but as a nation they don't it didn't happen, denying the halocaust is a crime..... Why is okay to ignore the genocide that occurred here?

No one is denying it happened. No one is saying it is right with what has transpired.

What exactly is it they are after??

Whatever it is who though should be responsible to pay the debt.

If we are talking Invasion Day then the blame for that does not rest with Australia or Australian people.

The blame for that can be directed at two wealthy organisations responsible. Firstly the British Government which signed off on establishing the penal colony in Australia. Secondly the British Royal Family also signed off on it as well.

Last I looked no one is asking them to pay the debt.

As for the Stolen Generation Issue the Australian Government has issued an apology. Why is more required??

Kevin Rudd apologised on behalf of the country for the decisions made by people well before him.


If more is required why is the onus on people who have not been responsible for the matters to make amends??


History has been written already.
Until the Aboriginal people actually accept the matter has occurred and move on we are going nowhere. This will still be prevalent in 200 more years time

[GazFish35]

My argument is that it's difficult to "move on" from when mainstream Australia still deny its impacts.

Bit like the Catholic Church expecting it's victims to "move on" while the institution stil denied things ever went on.



What is it that they're after?

From my experience many communities are after Self-determination and support for local initiatives improving their communities, not broad sweeping ill advised interventions based on myth and lies.

But hey, why don't we ask them..... Oh wait, the govt. didn't want that.

[plague]

No one is denying it happened.

Andrew Bolt is denying it happened.
No really, he is.

And if you read his argument and believe what he says then you can argue he's right.

A lot of people read Andrew Bolt and may agree with him.

That's the sort of stuff Indigenous Australians are up against.

[MFKS]

My argument is that it's difficult to "move on" from when mainstream Australia still deny its impacts.

Bit like the Catholic Church expecting it's victims to "move on" while the institution stil denied things ever went on.



What is it that they're after?

From my experience many communities are after Self-determination and support for local initiatives improving their communities, not broad sweeping ill advised interventions based on myth and lies.

But hey, why don't we ask them..... Oh wait, the govt. didn't want that.

Don't know why the Catholic Church priest thing comes up.

Catholics are deeply offended by the sex abuse by priests. Make no mistake about that.

The hierarchy of the churches handling of it was/is disgraceful as it goes against what Catholics believe in with God.


No Catholic with a clue can defend the Catholic Church's handling of sex abuse matters within its realms. They don't want to and thoroughly condemn the Church leaders for it.


Two really good reasons why the Church will never fully get its head around this issue.

Litigation Cases that would be forth coming and Negative Publicity from more sex abuse cases being aired publically.

Should they be letting these issues stop them cleaning house?? No they should wear what ever comes there way. Reality is Pigs will Fly down Hunter St before that day occurs

[GazFish35]

It comes up as a timely reminder of the impact an institution can have on a population.

One reminder that people seem to be able to get their heads around better than the treatment of aboriginal people by successive governments.

[plague]

attn: Furns and Mr Fish
A smarter person than I has summed up the constitution issue with better words.
Hope link works:
http://m.smh.com.au/comment/its-time-to-recognise-that-shutting-up-paying-up-and-staying-out-wont-work-20150805-gis9p1.html

[plague]

Oh, and I'm not trying to say "he's right" it's more like "this is what I was trying to say but my words are not as good".

[The Dunster]

If the Aboriginal people had a more effective Stop the Boats strategy 250 years ago none of this would be an issue.

[GazFish35]

Oh, and I'm not trying to say "he's right" it's more like "this is what I was trying to say but my words are not as good".

He makes some good points, but still all a into the mistake of making statements like this
Aboriginal children are abused and neglected on an industrial scale. Violence against Aboriginal women is endemic. Entire communities live from dole payment to dole payment. Areas in towns, cities or settlements with large Indigenous populations often become crime zones and welfare sinks.

Without actually putting things into context, I. That the issues he lists here are to unique or exclusive to aboriginal communities, they are low socio-economic issues experienced by all cultural backgrounds living below the poverty line. AND that many of the reasons behind aboriginal Australia ending up below the poverty line is linked to successive government policy dating back decades.

The indegenous leaders asking for more input into the start of this process aren't asking for exclusive input.... Something which abbotts language has suggested they are.

[The Dunster]

pretty much every creditable study into alcohol consumption notes a positive correlation between income and consumption.

The more you earn the more alcohol you consume. Given the low incomes of many Aboriginal people the picture painted by A Current Affair and the like is false.

With respect to child abuse again you hear a lot of stories in the mainstream media but rarely any prosecutions even with large scale state investigations.

The idea that people with such low incomes and access to resources could somehow cover up their actions is ridiculous to say the least.

No doubt such crimes occur but the frequency by which they occur could even be less than they are happening in the main stream.

As an example. 60mins Journos would always put a few grand on the bar whenever they visited Walgett or Brewarrina so they could get the footage they wanted to perpetuate the all Aboriginals are drunks myth.

The way Aboriginal people are treated is a national disgrace and everybody needs to accept responsibility.

And we are all responsible whether it be directly or even if we tune into the radio and TV stations promoting the misinformation.

[GazFish35]

Ive seen journos offering kids $50 to "make something up" about a fight (that didn't happen) at a school near by to a very prominent bully viral video a few years back.

TV journos seem particularly bad at this, I imagine it's a combination of needing footage, needing it quickly, and knowing what they broadcast isn't as easy to analyze and locate in archives as print media.... Print journos seem a little more aware of the power of what they print.

[plague]

Anyone else watch the republican debate?

{crickets}

Anyway, everyone seemed to expect Trump to hit Bush with a stone cold stunner or something.
But he was pretty normal.

Damn, there are some redneck politicians going on over there.

[WolfMan]

Print journos seem a little more aware of the power of what they print.

Little being the operative word.

Most print media these days is an absolute rag.

[hawk]

Its discriminative to not recognise all injustices throughout our history regardless of race. Mothers who lost their babies in the 70/80's are in as much pain.

Yes we are sorry for the pain of atrocities and wish they handled very differently. Lets get history correct regardless of race/govt/individual atrocity, state what happened and most importantly lets try to fix and prevent any further injustice and poverty we have now.

[The Dunster]

It's not easy when the current Prime Minister and his front bench think the earth is only 6000 years old and we all descended from one breeding pair.

[plague]

It's not easy when the current Prime Minister and his front bench think the earth is only 6000 years old and we all descended from one breeding pair.

You do realise that aside from Gillard every former PM was of the same belief (when in office).
and even Gillard voted against gay marriage with no real freaking reason.

[The Dunster]

You do realise that aside from Gillard every former PM was of the same belief (when in office).
and even Gillard voted against gay marriage with no real freaking reason.

I don't recall any bloke named Gillard as Prime Minister. You must be thinking of New Zealand.

[plague]

According to the experts though Tony Abbott is to blame for indigenous folk buying too much Vegemite.

[The Dunster]

According to the experts though Tony Abbott is to blame for indigenous folk buying too much Vegemite.

Tony Abbots massive government deficit is actually getting the economy back on track. But rather than claim a victory like he should his entire team can't bring themselves to admit that government deficits are more often than not the best way forward.

[plague]

Tony Abbots massive government deficit is actually getting the economy back on track. But rather than claim a victory like he should his entire team can't bring themselves to admit that government deficits are more often than not the best way forward.

that issue is sooooooo last month Dunster.
We are now on to government 'entitlements' and Indigenous folk making beer out of vegemite and Tony Abbott refuses to fix either problem.

[hawk]

It's not easy when the current Prime Minister and his front bench think the earth is only 6000 years old and we all descended from one breeding pair.

prove that it isnt.

http://www.2015auditions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/zoolander_blog240x303.jpg

[The Dunster]

prove that it isnt.

http://www.2015auditions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/zoolander_blog240x303.jpg


Planck's Constant is a non-zero number.

That's the proof. It doesn't solve the puzzle but it at least tells us how the pieces got there in the first place and it rejects the notion of a clockwork universe convincingly for the majority of sane people.

[hawk]

dont rule out brain in the bucket

[The Dunster]

dont rule out brain in the bucket

Or Bertrand Russell's Turtles for that matter.

[The Dunster]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a8/2b/4d/a82b4d6a982977cd94714ca91f7cd387.jpg

[plague]

Thought the PM's press conference on marriage equality was good.
He maintained his position to respect his constituents yet flagged giving the vote to the people.
That's a win/win.
(As long as they follow through with it).

[The Dunster]

Thought the PM's press conference on marriage equality was good.
He maintained his position to respect his constituents yet flagged giving the vote to the people.
That's a win/win.
(As long as they follow through with it).

What's the prize ? I seriously don't understand how anything can be called a win in something like this that's such a non-issue.

If I was gay I'd be protecting my own brand rather than merging with a brand that pretty much fails more often than it succeeds in marriages.

[plague]

What's the prize ? I seriously don't understand how anything can be called a win in something like this that's such a non-issue.

thats exactly my point.
the marriage equality issue is not a huge factor for the majority of Australians, despite at times taking up a larger part of the national debate.
but instead of changing tact mid term they stayed true to their policy and are more than happy to let the public decide at the next election.

whether or not you agree with their stance is a different issue.

the 'win' is a political party showing some semblance of integrity and not flip flopping whenever its convenient.

its a pretty ****ing rare commodity these days.

[The Dunster]

thats exactly my point.
the marriage equality issue is not a huge factor for the majority of Australians, despite at times taking up a larger part of the national debate.
but instead of changing tact mid term they stayed true to their policy and are more than happy to let the public decide at the next election.

whether or not you agree with their stance is a different issue.

the 'win' is a political party showing some semblance of integrity and not flip flopping whenever its convenient.

its a pretty ****ing rare commodity these days.

I'd just like to see them focus on more important things like the Vegemite epidemic.

[goaliepersempre]

thats exactly my point.
the marriage equality issue is not a huge factor for the majority of Australians, despite at times taking up a larger part of the national debate.
but instead of changing tact mid term they stayed true to their policy and are more than happy to let the public decide at the next election.

whether or not you agree with their stance is a different issue.

the 'win' is a political party showing some semblance of integrity and not flip flopping whenever its convenient.

its a pretty ****ing rare commodity these days.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[goaliepersempre]

Even though its clear what my political affiliation is.. it might still be just on the podcast stream, you might have already listened to it but Richard fidlers conversations piece with Paul Keating is quiet a good listen.. Do recommend it....

[The Dunster]

I used to love watching Keating rip into Downer, Howard, Reith, Peacock, Hewson, and Prince Charles in parliament time on the ABC.
Downer especially received and absolute pasting. These silver spoon khunts have all lived protected lives from the day they were born.
Private education for example never pressures children to take on anything they find hard. Instead they protect them and tell them how wonderful they are doing things they are comfortable with.
Get these kids / people in a situation where they aren't so comfortable they don't adapt - they run a mile. Keating knew this and always led them down a path they were never happy to go.

[pv4]

State government taking away Toronto RTA :'(

[plague]

State government taking away Toronto RTA :'(

Tell me about it, they shut s few down in Newy too.
I now have to drive an extra 2 or 3km every 5 years to do me licence.

Disc-race.

[q-money]

i know you backwater hicks up in newy don't get much exposure to big gubbmint, but have you actually used services NSW? it's amazing. it works. baird should be knighted.

[boz-monaut]

absolutely

the level of service you get at one of these Service NSW joints is way above and beyond what you'd expect

go to the one on Parry Street, it's amazing, they have a concierge type bloke there to help you

Baird for PM

[Buddha]

I concur was Boz and Q, lovely run facility.

I want to know everyone's opinion on our Military Presence in UAE and attempted elimination of ISIL etc? Do we agree with it or not?

And also, Left vs Right Handed Masturbation?

[pv4]

i know you backwater hicks up in newy don't get much exposure to big gubbmint, but have you actually used services NSW? it's amazing. it works. baird should be knighted.

Is this like renewing your car rego online?

If so, I've used it and loved it.

[q-money]

I want to know everyone's opinion on our Military Presence in UAE and attempted elimination of ISIL etc? Do we agree with it or not?

i'd say bomb these ****s back to the stone age but ironically that would be giving them exactly what they want

just send them heaps of pornos

[The Dunster]

I concur was Boz and Q, lovely run facility.

I want to know everyone's opinion on our Military Presence in UAE and attempted elimination of ISIL etc? Do we agree with it or not?

And also, Left vs Right Handed Masturbation?

163 people own / control 95% of the worlds financial assets. Let them fight ISIL as it is their war not ours.
The use of the phrase "our Military" is ridiculous when it represents the wishes of the 163 rather than the masses.

[plague]

163 people own / control 95% of the worlds financial assets. Let them fight ISIL as it is their war not ours.
The use of the phrase "our Military" is ridiculous when it represents the wishes of the 163 rather than the masses.

Isn't Hawk one of the 163?

[The Dunster]

Isn't Hawk one of the 163?

164 this year. Apparently he took big losses when he renewed his Jets Membership.

[hawk]

nah, shouldve started my own business like plague.

Im working at maccas. But no for much longer. I think the boss knows ive been giving out free stuff to nearly everyone.

Ill go to bunnings next,who wants free stuff from there? better be quick though, stupid cctv

[The Dunster]

nah, shouldve started my own business like plague.

Im working at maccas. But no for much longer. I think the boss knows ive been giving out free stuff to nearly everyone.

Ill go to bunnings next,who wants free stuff from there? better be quick though, stupid cctv

http://www.clumsycrooks.com/media/files18/pictures/ronald_mcdonald_gets_busted.jpg

[plague]

Ill go to bunnings next,who wants free stuff from there? better be quick though, stupid cctv

Don't worry mate, they can't rissole you for nicking stuff off your boss these days.
You've got at least 6 months of 'counselling' before they can even look like getting rid of ya.

Plenty of time to hook me up with some timber for that sweet pergola I'm planning out the back.

[The Dunster]

Don't worry mate, they can't rissole you for nicking stuff off your boss these days.
You've got at least 6 months of 'counselling' before they can even look like getting rid of ya.

Human Resources with their psychometric testing and the like is obviously working a treat then when profiling potential employees.

Need to bring back the good old days plague where new employees arrived by boat from the home land and you bought them from their owners and then set them to work for you - without ever having to pay them a wage.:gent:

[hawk]

lol^

gut feeling and nepotism is best. you're hired

[plague]

Human Resources with their psychometric testing and the like is obviously working a treat then when profiling potential employees.


To be fair though you always want one sparky from Ausgrid in your Saturday team.
Someone's gotta provide the electrical tape.

[belchardo]

I'm a left leaning voter, and I want the trade unions royal commission to continue (sunlight is a pretty good disinfectant and I'm a aardvark if the ALP/unions don't need a good dose of disinfectant), but I can't see how haydon doesn't think that a reasonable person might consider that acceptaing invitation to speak at a liberal fundraiser might make him biased!

[q-money]

i can't wait to see dyson heydon's response to dyson heydon's statement on why he is suitable to continue to run the TURC

[PC14]

I'm a left leaning voter, and I want the trade unions royal commission to continue (sunlight is a pretty good disinfectant and I'm a aardvark if the ALP/unions don't need a good dose of disinfectant), but I can't see how haydon doesn't think that a reasonable person might consider that acceptaing invitation to speak at a liberal fundraiser might make him biased!

This. Could not agree more.

[plague]

I'm a left leaning voter, and I want the trade unions royal commission to continue (sunlight is a pretty good disinfectant and I'm a aardvark if the ALP/unions don't need a good dose of disinfectant), but I can't see how haydon doesn't think that a reasonable person might consider that acceptaing invitation to speak at a liberal fundraiser might make him biased!

its actually the best outcome for the comrades.
any findings, revelations etc are now just tossed aside as "lib sympathiser on a witch hunt".
very little credibility left in this whole shebang.

[The Dunster]

ALP should have stayed quiet, and let him speak at the LIB party fundraiser. Then waited until election time to spring it on the LIBS

[snake]

the disgusting thing is $20m was taken out of the child abuse RC for this, which has so far revealed **** all.

[MFKS]

ALP should have stayed quiet, and let him speak at the LIB party fundraiser. Then waited until election time to spring it on the LIBS

See the problem is you keep all your dirt for election time then you can have problem getting full impact.

They spring it election time then some people will instantly think it is lies and bullshit and not believe. A couple of weeks of denial from the Libs and it isn't publically accepted

As a result the effects can be reduced.

Get it out before election and the stink does not go away.


Also don't forget the majority of people will have made their minds up already before the election is announced anyway who they are voting for.

Only a gullible half wit makes his mind up in election time when they make a decision based on promises and lies from politicians trying to deceive you to get a vote

[plague]

ALP should have stayed quiet, and let him speak at the LIB party fundraiser. Then waited until election time to spring it on the LIBS
Hadn't he already knocked it back before this all came out?
I thought it was all in the long long ago, before the RC was set up.

[plague]

the disgusting thing is $20m was taken out of the child abuse RC for this, which has so far revealed **** all.

Don't fret.
Pollies will always find some more cash down the back of the lounge if they need it.
Everyone's getting paid on this.

[belchardo]

Hadn't he already knocked it back before this all came out?
I thought it was all in the long long ago, before the RC was set up.

huh? the speech was going to be last week, and he turned it down two weeks ago after accepting the invitation while he was the RC.

[plague]

huh? the speech was going to be last week, and he turned it down two weeks ago after accepting the invitation while he was the RC.

Really?
Wow for some reason I was under the impression that it was years ago.
Cheers for clearing that up.

[The Dunster]

See the problem is you keep all your dirt for election time then you can have problem getting full impact.

They spring it election time then some people will instantly think it is lies and bullshit and not believe. A couple of weeks of denial from the Libs and it isn't publically accepted

As a result the effects can be reduced.

Get it out before election and the stink does not go away.


Also don't forget the majority of people will have made their minds up already before the election is announced anyway who they are voting for.

Only a gullible half wit makes his mind up in election time when they make a decision based on promises and lies from politicians trying to deceive you to get a vote

Most people are gullible half-wits with very short memories.
Politicians on all sides have done some horrific things in the past 100 years and very few of them have been punished for their actions at elections.

Rather, the plutocrats and the media organisations they control will more often than not decide the fate of a politican.

Craig Thompson, Peter Slipper, and Browyn Bishop were boned for their suspect spending.

Peter Reith, Tony Abbot, Helen Coonan, and Michael Wooldridge made the previous three look thrifty and yet none of them paid for their spending habits at an election.

... and the list goes on.

[plague]

Looks like Tony Abbott has killed that refugee kid.
Bad job Tony. Bad job.

[boz-monaut]

****ing great idea to invade Iraq back then wasn't it?

who would have thought a power vacuum would form in the unstable middle east and then it'd be filled with idiot religious fighting dickheads?

[plague]

****ing great idea to invade Iraq back then wasn't it?

who would have thought a power vacuum would form in the unstable middle east and then it'd be filled with idiot religious fighting dickheads?

Things were sweet when Rambo helped the Taliban kick out the Russians.

[boz-monaut]

I want, what they want, and every other guy who came over here and spilled his guts and gave everything he had, wants! For our country to love us as much as we love it! That's what I want!

then I want to walk off towards a barbed wire fence for some reason

[plague]

I want, what they want, and every other guy who came over here and spilled his guts and gave everything he had, wants! For our country to love us as much as we love it! That's what I want!

then I want to walk off towards a barbed wire fence for some reason

"How are you going to live, Boz?"

[plague]

Prob close to firing this mofo back up yeah lads?

[MFKS]

Prob close to firing this mofo back up yeah lads?

Nah Pass.

I am too busy with my Gypo friend to give it time of day :thumbsup:

[PC14]

Prob close to firing this mofo back up yeah lads?

Should be an interesting couple of days/week.

[The Dunster]

Turnbull would be an idiot to want the Coalition leadership given the state of the economy.

The automatic stabilisers have well and truly kicked in and deficit spending is not only unavoidable - it is the only way to get the economy back on trend.

The big problem though is that the current state of play clearly demonstrates the lies told by both labour and the coalition about the effectiveness of monetary policy in managing the economy.

They both crapped on about needing a surplus to keep interest rates low - and yet:

Government spending and the government deficit is increasing rapidly -and yet the interest / cash rate is falling.

Also, lets not forget the other so called experts crying for a lower exchange rate to improve exports. Well the exchange rate is falling and so also is the demand for exports.

The stupidity of these khunts is beyond belief.

[Bon]

I am too busy with my Gypo friend to give it time of day :thumbsup:

What are you doing with pv4??

[boz-monaut]

Turnbull would be an idiot to want the Coalition leadership given the state of the economy.

The automatic stabilisers have well and truly kicked in and deficit spending is not only unavoidable - it is the only way to get the economy back on trend.

The big problem though is that the current state of play clearly demonstrates the lies told by both labour and the coalition about the effectiveness of monetary policy in managing the economy.

They both crapped on about needing a surplus to keep interest rates low - and yet:

Government spending and the government deficit is increasing rapidly -and yet the interest / cash rate is falling.

Also, lets not forget the other so called experts crying for a lower exchange rate to improve exports. Well the exchange rate is falling and so also is the demand for exports.

The stupidity of these khunts is beyond belief.

check out John Maynard Keynes over here

basics of macro economics were thrown out by the financiers of major political parties years ago

[The Dunster]

check out John Maynard Keynes over here

basics of macro economics were thrown out by the financiers of major political parties years ago

Yes. At it's most basic level Macro tells us that spending must always equal income. Anything beyond that is just over complicating something that is very simple.
The plutocrats as you mention painted over that logic years ago.

[belchardo]

oh it's on now. Turnbull has resigned from cabinet, asked for leadership ballot.

[plague]

Turnbull would be an idiot to want the Coalition leadership given the state of the economy.


But doesn't it say something that Turnbull still feels he needs to challenge despite everything you say.

As everyone has previously mentioned, these days it's about personality not policy.

and now that ITS ONNNNNNNNN don't you think the numbers are def there for Mal to go real close to getting it.
He's not (that) silly.

[snake]

at least hockey's dead.

cracked the wine here, regretful thet the popcorn is out.

[belchardo]

got a time for this bloody ballot yet?

[belchardo]

why is tony abbott incapable of walking properly?

[Premy]

I will state I grew up in a strong Labour voting family and I would say I lean left.

I will also state last election I didn't vote for either LNP or ALP.
I just want to say I'm sick of hearing the LNP continue to reference what the ALP done in Government, I couldn't give a toss. I just want you to get on with running the Country.

"The Public want us to get on with the job of good Government" is something I keep hearing a lot. Well how about you get on with Government and stop referencing the past.

:banghead: rant over

[snake]

got a time for this bloody ballot yet?

between 8 and 9 according to sky news

[snake]

I will state I grew up in a strong Labour voting family and I would say I lean left.

I will also state last election I didn't vote for either LNP or ALP.
I just want to say I'm sick of hearing the LNP continue to reference what the ALP done in Government, I couldn't give a toss. I just want you to get on with running the Country.

"The Public want us to get on with the job of good Government" is something I keep hearing a lot. Well how about you get on with Government and stop referencing the past.

:banghead: rant over

completely agree. douche and turd sandwich decision

have to say, i've listened to a few interviews with jeremy corbyn, and love that he just answers questions iwith simple answers and no obfuscation/political shit. on this front, i have a bit of a man crush tbh

[boz-monaut]

what a shit night to have to pull an all nighter at work

wonder if Rio Tinto will notice if the last few chapters are written in drunk