Sydney FC

[halo se7en]

I didn’t want this to get lost in the match day thread.

No doubt they’ve been the best team in the comp over the last two seasons. Squad depth is poor but they’ve done something miraculous to keep the injuries away and generally get their best XI on the field every week. Can’t argue with the quality of Bobo, Adrian & Ninkovic but imagine if they had the same injuries we’ve copped. Bobo out for half the season like Roy, and Adrian out for most of the season aka Vargas. That’s not counting the minor injuries we’ve had to Pato, Georgevski, Kanta. Considering Bobo and Adrian have scored over half their goals, that would have made a helluva difference.

I may be biased but I’d be starting to worry as a Sydney fan. They’ve now got 5 games to play that don’t mean a lot so keeping the motivation will be hard. The premiership has been sewn up for a while. Even Arnold has been desperately trying to bleat on about goals and points records to try and keep the players hungry. They didn’t look it last night.

That’s 3 games against us now that they haven’t looked like the dominating force they usually are. We’ve proven to be a massive thorn in their side and the one capable of upsetting the apple cart on the big day.

The ACL is only proving to them that they aren’t invincible and now Arnie’s gotta juggle his squad between the two. His arrogance meant he put out a best XI against us and it’ll be interesting to see if it backfires come Wednesday.

What price they get knocked out in the GF qualifier?

[Jetmaster]

Two games against the Mariners and they havent scored either.

[Hunter403]

Hate them as much as the scum.....maybe more

[Bon]

Hate them as much as the scum.....maybe more

I actually hate them more than the gypo scum..

[Grimario]

I actually hate them more than the gypo scum..
Not surprising really. You and pv4 have a lot to answer for.

[Retro Jet]

Blue Aids. Souless club. Just proves to me that 'winning' isn't everything. Arnie a joke. Hand the AFC Cup back to Asian HQ now if he's in the box seat for the NT after the Dutchie.

Build the statue to Merrick now! Keep him forever. Make him the Sir Alex of Newy...without the shoe throwing TYVM.

[halo se7en]

Not that I wish injuries on any team, but how does one club escape so many unavoidable injuries over the course of 2 seasons? Just once, it would be nice to see Arnie struggle with injuries like Ernie's had to all season.

Boogaard is now gone for the season over nothing but an innocuous jump for a header and awkward landing. Sydney seem to have the gods smiling on them with stuff like this.

[belchardo]

Not that I wish injuries on any team, but how does one club escape so many unavoidable injuries over the course of 2 seasons? Just once, it would be nice to see Arnie struggle with injuries like Ernie's had to all season.

Boogaard is now gone for the season over nothing but an innocuous jump for a header and awkward landing. Sydney seem to have the gods smiling on them with stuff like this.

i think because they have the best strength and conditioning coach in the comp.

[halo se7en]

i think because they have the best strength and conditioning coach in the comp.

Do you think that's what happened with Boogaard though? Genuine question... I don't know how much that would contribute.

[belchardo]

Do you think that's what happened with Boogaard though? Genuine question... I don't know how much that would contribute.

i'm no expert on injuries, but it seems logical to me that superior strength/conditioning will result in a reduction in the "innocuous" type of injury. i imaginee less fatigue in muscles means that you're better able to ride those kind of things.

[Retro Jet]

Here's a thought with regards to injuries:
There's nothing that sh!ts me to tears more with injuries than to see players 'touging it out'
walking off the pitch. Everything I've learned from first aid courses over the years and especially
moving through several levels of massage/remedial therapies and the anatomy that I learned with
those modalities along the way, EVERY STEP they take is doing further damage.
For Boogs to ditch the stretcher is plain dumb and ill informed. Physio's in attendance should know better
and I've had this conversation with other working 'professionals' in the field before too.
Get these hero's on a stretcher or at least helped off without weight bearing on the injured area or joint.

EDIT:- Sorry for the rant in this thread (off subject). Just wanted to get that off my chest.

[mic22]

Here's a thought with regards to injuries:
There's nothing that sh!ts me to tears more with injuries than to see players 'touging it out'
walking off the pitch. Everything I've learned from first aid courses over the years and especially
moving through several levels of massage/remedial therapies and the anatomy that I learned with
those modalities along the way, EVERY STEP they take is doing further damage.
For Boogs to ditch the stretcher is plain dumb and ill informed. Physio's in attendance should know better
and I've had this conversation with other working 'professionals' in the field before too.
Get these hero's on a stretcher or at least helped off without weight bearing on the injured area or joint.

EDIT:- Sorry for the rant in this thread (off subject). Just wanted to get that off my chest.

I always thought the same, without being an expert.
You don't know the extent of the damage - don't put any weight on it!!!

Back to Sydney FFA: to be fair, they lost Grant in the pre-season - still nothing compared to all the bad luck suffered by the Jets...

I agree they should start to worry: still the most complete team in the a league, but their confidence is not that good anymore - lost in the ACL, lost with the Jets.
And their fitness doesn't look that good either: in the second part of the game last Sunday, they were clearly struggling to keep up with the Jets, despite being 1 man up the whole game.

[Macca]

I always thought the same, without being an expert.
You don't know the extent of the damage - don't put any weight on it!!!

Back to Sydney FFA: to be fair, they lost Grant in the pre-season - still nothing compared to all the bad luck suffered by the Jets...

I agree they should start to worry: still the most complete team in the a league, but their confidence is not that good anymore - lost in the ACL, lost with the Jets.
And their fitness doesn't look that good either: in the second part of the game last Sunday, they were clearly struggling to keep up with the Jets, despite being 1 man up the whole game.

I think their fitness is probably decent, although having two old blokes at fullback and getting them to push high against a team looking to counter hard and fast is gonna cause you problems.
We were outrunning them cause we were hungry as shit to show them up, especially after the perceived "being wronged" after 15 minutes.

Don't forget Nabbout has been running like a madman all season anyway. I would guess the half time sub of Brown may have been planned and him told to go hard and same with Kanta second half, and Dimi and McGree were both hungry pushing forward to support.

[mic22]

Arnie is still delusional...

"Unintentionally, the players [against Newcastle] had one eye on Wednesday night because that's the challenge of the two competitions at the same time which is new to a lot of players.

"We removed that straight after the game. It was a one-off performance that I've not seen in a long, long time.

"When you have one or two players flat then there's no need to question anything. But when you have 12-13 players flat you then need to look at what you've done during the week.

"I believe the Shanghai game and Wanderers game took a lot of emotion out of the players and hell of a lot of effort.

"You suffer from it five to nine days later with fatigue or mental fatigue but we're recovered now. Straight after the game [against Jets], I addressed it."


lol

[lil_masi]

Arnie is still delusional...


lol

lol wankr

[380]

Arnold is a tosser and this walk up to national coach role after the world cup is just another demonstration Lowy and Gallop are overdosing on make me stupid drugs and should not be anywhere near this game.

Wasn't that long ago butt Kleenex Arnold said pre game my team is 120% ready to go then proceeded to put in a average performance and post game claimed the squad had a case of the slippery shits during the week. Only like minded fools like Arnie ( looking at you Lowy and Gallop ) could think he is national coach material.

Bloke had the sweats big time post presser and so he should as the karma train is ready to make an entrance right where the sun has never shined.

[plague]

Why are you all falling for this shit?!

[Jetmaster]

When did Matt Simon last score a goal ffs?

[boz-monaut]

not sure if I should feel unAustralian but I just cheered a bit then when Kashima scored

[Jetmaster]

Ninko out, Zullo gone again and O'Neill in serious trouble injury wise. Bobo on the bench too.

This'll be good.

[westjet]

So brosque telling ref to do his job at half time. Hope the afc have the balls to put him in his place unlike the ffa.
Plus gotta love them losing their shit at a bad tackle possibly injuring one of their players when they hack the crap out of every opponent each week.

[halo se7en]

It’s ok. All 14 of them were just flat tonight. But Arnie’s addressed it for the next game.

[mic22]

Didn't they have an eye on this game?
I think they need more eyes...

[plague]

not sure if I should feel unAustralian but I just cheered a bit then when Kashima scored

nah man. Japan rulz.
Be proud.

[The Dunster]

i'm no expert on injuries, but it seems logical to me that superior strength/conditioning will result in a reduction in the "innocuous" type of injury. i imaginee less fatigue in muscles means that you're better able to ride those kind of things.

Most of it is a combination of luck and genetics. Take someone like Nolan Ryan as an example. He pitched in the majors for 27 years or so, and even at the end of his career could still throw harder than anyone else in the game for 9 innings or more. Apart from pitching drills all he really did was ride and run. That's it. There was no extensive program - and yet we are never going to probably see anyone that even comes close to his longevity and velocity in the game again. He'd been known to pitch 15 innings and still be throwing the fireball at 99mph and the curve mid 90's [He could hit 108mph early in the game].
Football wise Stanley Matthews played into his 50's and beyond - again all he really did different was stay off the turps, avoid the smokes, and he ate sensibly - there was no science bullshit to it.

The way Boogs landed the other day would have put anyone out - regardless of any strength and conditioning. Injury management I think is something that's come a long way - but avoiding injuries not so much.

[Jetmaster]

not sure if I should feel unAustralian but I just cheered a bit then when Kashima scored

Nuh...anything that makes pretty Japanese girls make their famous squeal is fine by me.

[turbojetfireV8]

:popcorn:
https://foxsportspmd-a.akamaihd.net/free/geoblock/2018/03/07/DVU_070318_FOT_SYDFC_LOSE_PKGE_201803072248/DVU_070318_FOT_SYDFC_LOSE_PKGE_201803072248_1596.m p4

[Bremsstrahlung]

Moving forward....

[mic22]

Moving forward....
Sounds like Stubbins... good sign.
"We conceded two soft goals"... lol they had no idea how to defend, players totally unmarked in the box.

[Hunter403]

Maybe these results show Arnie's ability against skilled, well coached, organised teams that have talented players. Maybe he's not up to anything beyond the A League.

Thankfully no one has made him our national coach.......

[Jeterpool]

Maybe these results show Arnie's ability against skilled, well coached, organised teams that have talented players. Maybe he's not up to anything beyond the A League.

Thankfully no one has made him our national coach.......

Hold my drink

[rhysd]

Most of it is a combination of luck and genetics. Take someone like Nolan Ryan as an example. He pitched in the majors for 27 years or so, and even at the end of his career could still throw harder than anyone else in the game for 9 innings or more. Apart from pitching drills all he really did was ride and run. That's it. There was no extensive program - and yet we are never going to probably see anyone that even comes close to his longevity and velocity in the game again. He'd been known to pitch 15 innings and still be throwing the fireball at 99mph and the curve mid 90's [He could hit 108mph early in the game].
Football wise Stanley Matthews played into his 50's and beyond - again all he really did different was stay off the turps, avoid the smokes, and he ate sensibly - there was no science bullshit to it.

The way Boogs landed the other day would have put anyone out - regardless of any strength and conditioning. Injury management I think is something that's come a long way - but avoiding injuries not so much.

There are so many rebuttals to this argument you have presented and it is perhaps one of the most misconstrued and ill-informed opinions I've ever read regarding conditioning and injury prevention.

To suggest conditioning and injury prevention programmes are not helpful is downright ludicrous. Genetics, sure, do help. However the swathes of information and studies out there are in complete contradiction to your statement. You'll get your 'rare' cases of people who are able to compete at a high level without a lot of pre-conditioning to get them there but it is highly uncommon.

Rigorous testing protocols should always be utilised when an injured athlete is returning to sport. Sure it may have been a 'different' injury to the one boogard sustained but how much did the "muscle damage" in the lead up play a role in his inability to safely execute a landing (without significant external perturbation)? Was his jumping and landing techniques assessed for? (One would hope so). Some injuries are unavoidable (contact primarily) but non-contact injuries are absolutely avoidable (building fatigue resistance, practice of technique etc etc)

Injury prevention programmes do and in actual fact work. Your argument is the same as what some smokers will say "I never got cancer" - okay but there are millions of others out there that will!!

[Jetmaster]

Maybe these results show Arnie's ability against skilled, well coached, organised teams that have talented players. Maybe he's not up to anything beyond the A League.

Thankfully no one has made him our national coach.......

https://www.foxsports.com.au/football/socceroos/sydney-fc-coach-graham-arnold-is-set-to-be-named-as-longterm-socceroos-boss-on-thursday/news-story/988d9243180ed101c8bee5779eb14b85

Deserting the sinking ship.

[boz-monaut]

So brosque telling ref to do his job at half time. Hope the afc have the balls to put him in his place unlike the ffa.
Plus gotta love them losing their shit at a bad tackle possibly injuring one of their players when they hack the crap out of every opponent each week.

https://blackmail4u.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/quote.jpg

[Jeterpool]

Post of the year and it's only March

[Macca]

There are so many rebuttals to this argument you have presented and it is perhaps one of the most misconstrued and ill-informed opinions I've ever read regarding conditioning and injury prevention.

To suggest conditioning and injury prevention programmes are not helpful is downright ludicrous. Genetics, sure, do help. However the swathes of information and studies out there are in complete contradiction to your statement. You'll get your 'rare' cases of people who are able to compete at a high level without a lot of pre-conditioning to get them there but it is highly uncommon.

Rigorous testing protocols should always be utilised when an injured athlete is returning to sport. Sure it may have been a 'different' injury to the one boogard sustained but how much did the "muscle damage" in the lead up play a role in his inability to safely execute a landing (without significant external perturbation)? Was his jumping and landing techniques assessed for? (One would hope so). Some injuries are unavoidable (contact primarily) but non-contact injuries are absolutely avoidable (building fatigue resistance, practice of technique etc etc)

Injury prevention programmes do and in actual fact work. Your argument is the same as what some smokers will say "I never got cancer" - okay but there are millions of others out there that will!!

Great post

[The Dunster]

There are so many rebuttals to this argument you have presented and it is perhaps one of the most misconstrued and ill-informed opinions I've ever read regarding conditioning and injury prevention.

To suggest conditioning and injury prevention programmes are not helpful is downright ludicrous. Genetics, sure, do help. However the swathes of information and studies out there are in complete contradiction to your statement. You'll get your 'rare' cases of people who are able to compete at a high level without a lot of pre-conditioning to get them there but it is highly uncommon.

Rigorous testing protocols should always be utilised when an injured athlete is returning to sport. Sure it may have been a 'different' injury to the one boogard sustained but how much did the "muscle damage" in the lead up play a role in his inability to safely execute a landing (without significant external perturbation)? Was his jumping and landing techniques assessed for? (One would hope so). Some injuries are unavoidable (contact primarily) but non-contact injuries are absolutely avoidable (building fatigue resistance, practice of technique etc etc)

Injury prevention programmes do and in actual fact work. Your argument is the same as what some smokers will say "I never got cancer" - okay but there are millions of others out there that will!!

I stated facts. None of which you have actually rebutted.

Show me that neither Ryan or Mathews had long succesful careers. And show me how with so called "modern methods" they would have played longer and better.

The way Boogs landed was nasty - It didn't look like anything preventable.

If you think conditioning could have prevented it let us see the science for his specific situation.

[rhysd]

I stated facts. None of which you have actually rebutted.

Show me that neither Ryan or Mathews had long succesful careers. And show me how with so called "modern methods" they would have played longer and better.

The way Boogs landed was nasty - It didn't look like anything preventable.

If you think conditioning could have prevented it let us see the science for his specific situation.

Re-read my post.

[The Dunster]

Re-read my post.

Players have a hard enough time remembering where to be on the field during a game [especially if they have taken a knock or are fatigued]. Having them remember how to jump and land in relation to different surface conditions and how to adjust / compensate for exogenous factors such as the ball changing trajectory, making contact with another player, or making movements to avoid another player seems to be a little bit beyond reason.

Moreover, when you have limited squad sizes, salary caps.. and so on players are going to be playing when they shouldn't - so arguing about players not being ready to return is simply flogging a dead horse. It might be correct to say a player should not have come back but the reality is athletes are usually risk takers, and there is a lot of pressure on them to play as well from coaches, fans... and so on.

Getting the playing surface safer / more consistent would seem just as important - and a hell of a lot easier to achieve.

[Macca]

Players have a hard enough time remembering where to be on the field during a game [especially if they have taken a knock or are fatigued]. Having them remember how to jump and land in relation to different surface conditions and how to adjust / compensate for exogenous factors such as the ball changing trajectory, making contact with another player, or making movements to avoid another player seems to be a little bit beyond reason.

Moreover, when you have limited squad sizes, salary caps.. and so on players are going to be playing when they shouldn't - so arguing about players not being ready to return is simply flogging a dead horse. It might be correct to say a player should not have come back but the reality is athletes are usually risk takers, and there is a lot of pressure on them to play as well from coaches, fans... and so on.

Getting the playing surface safer / more consistent would seem just as important - and a hell of a lot easier to achieve.

Players aren't going to make conscious changes to their technique during games, you're right. To get anywhere it has to be practiced to the point where its muscle memory and natural. Changes to technique can be achieved - you would know this with your experience with tennis, and while there there is a lot of other aspects to cover in soccer as well as technique, if a coach spotted something detrimental to a player's health that they can work on to remove, it would be doable.

The other thing I would say with regards to Boogs injury. Yes, the way he fell, he's gonna get injured. However I would suggest that if he wasn't in such a state of mental and physical fatigue, he probably would have been more likely to bring his landing leg further forward and in front of him allowing him to land safely. Everyone who's played knows you start getting sloppy and lose your technique if you've busted your gut for a while and your muscle strength is fading. Whether or not it can be coached to be more mindful of it in that specific situation to allow safe landing, I don't know - it seems there would be too many different things to keep track of as you said. But say Boogs was stronger and/or fitter and was not fatiguing as hard at that point (also possible that his previous week's injury was contributing to this) then he would not have had such a sloppy landing.

[plague]

So what do y’all say about Sean Ontong then?

You blokes must think he was the worst prepared, poorly coached bloke in the planet then.

[The Dunster]

Players aren't going to make conscious changes to their technique during games, you're right. To get anywhere it has to be practiced to the point where its muscle memory and natural. Changes to technique can be achieved - you would know this with your experience with tennis, and while there there is a lot of other aspects to cover in soccer as well as technique, if a coach spotted something detrimental to a player's health that they can work on to remove, it would be doable.

The other thing I would say with regards to Boogs injury. Yes, the way he fell, he's gonna get injured. However I would suggest that if he wasn't in such a state of mental and physical fatigue, he probably would have been more likely to bring his landing leg further forward and in front of him allowing him to land safely. Everyone who's played knows you start getting sloppy and lose your technique if you've busted your gut for a while and your muscle strength is fading. Whether or not it can be coached to be more mindful of it in that specific situation to allow safe landing, I don't know - it seems there would be too many different things to keep track of as you said. But say Boogs was stronger and/or fitter and was not fatiguing as hard at that point (also possible that his previous week's injury was contributing to this) then he would not have had such a sloppy landing.

The problem is that players are always going to be at their limit so fatigue is unavoidable. In tennis we'd probably find the current players would rarely if ever be injured if they played on the same courts with the same laid back schedules players did in the 60's and 70's.

But the reality is always going to be bigger, faster, better and so on - meaning players bodies in all sports are going to be pushed beyond a safe limit.

If players are within their limits then I'm not sure that's going to satisfy spectators as much as a war of attrition on the field so to speak . Again I'm not advocating pushing players in any sport until they break - but it does seem to be the reality of the professional sports where players are treated and traded like commodities all in the name of profits and entertainment.

[Macca]

Valid points and I agree with most of them.

Another thing to consider - I'm reading a biography of Messi at the moment, and jeez the lengths Barca go to to keep him on the pitch are something - amazing what they can do with money and a vested interest right? There hasn't been anything illegal mentioned or anything along those lines - but more so stuff like.. At one stage of his career he had a couple of injuries in a similar spot in quick succession. They went over every aspect of his life to try to work out any improvements they could make to work on his fitness and health. Personal chef and strict diet, 24/7 personal trainer with personalised plan for strengthening. Strict instructions to be very mindful that whenever he was putting effort in in a game, make sure its worth it - don't waste energy. Whole analysis teams monitoring all his training and match data as well as video analysis looking at all his technique etc to find absolutely any tiny little improvements they could make to make sure he would not be injured. They also had to spend a lot of time talking to him and coaching him and teaching him how to listen to and understand his body - dude is such a competitor that he tears his body apart trying to win otherwise.

Very interesting stuff. I'm sure there's similar stories out there about CR7 and how he has managed his body over the last couple years, reducing play time etc.

[The Dunster]

Valid points and I agree with most of them.

Another thing to consider - I'm reading a biography of Messi at the moment, and jeez the lengths Barca go to to keep him on the pitch are something - amazing what they can do with money and a vested interest right? There hasn't been anything illegal mentioned or anything along those lines - but more so stuff like.. At one stage of his career he had a couple of injuries in a similar spot in quick succession. They went over every aspect of his life to try to work out any improvements they could make to work on his fitness and health. Personal chef and strict diet, 24/7 personal trainer with personalised plan for strengthening. Strict instructions to be very mindful that whenever he was putting effort in in a game, make sure its worth it - don't waste energy. Whole analysis teams monitoring all his training and match data as well as video analysis looking at all his technique etc to find absolutely any tiny little improvements they could make to make sure he would not be injured. They also had to spend a lot of time talking to him and coaching him and teaching him how to listen to and understand his body - dude is such a competitor that he tears his body apart trying to win otherwise.

Very interesting stuff. I'm sure there's similar stories out there about CR7 and how he has managed his body over the last couple years, reducing play time etc.

Sergi Samper is also at Barcelona and not doing so well under the very same system.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona/sperrenundverletzungen/verein/131/plus/1

[Macca]

I didn't say they were uncovering every stone for all their players. They were however very interested in keeping Messi on the park and so went to great lengths to do so. He has still spent time out injured despite this and the majority of players will, whether through something that could have been improved (from their or coaching point of view), or bad luck, or impact injuries etc.

I also tend to get the feeling that despite many smart people's best efforts, there is a lot about the human body that we still do not know and a lot of things that could be done better even at the highest level.

[boz-monaut]

does this discussion warrant an injuries and injury management thread?

perhaps in the off the ball

[Jetmaster]

Back to the subject - was interesting to see Poppa and Kalac watching the ACL the other night.

Watching over their boys for next season?

RBB would lose immense shit if that was to occur - they'd be throwing Killer Pythons!

[Wilso8948]

Back to the subject - was interesting to see Poppa and Kalac watching the ACL the other night.

Watching over their boys for next season?

RBB would lose immense shit if that was to occur - they'd be throwing Killer Pythons!

Article on the world game also mentions him replacing Gombau already. Probably all speculation however.

[rhysd]

Players have a hard enough time remembering where to be on the field during a game [especially if they have taken a knock or are fatigued]. Having them remember how to jump and land in relation to different surface conditions and how to adjust / compensate for exogenous factors such as the ball changing trajectory, making contact with another player, or making movements to avoid another player seems to be a little bit beyond reason.

Moreover, when you have limited squad sizes, salary caps.. and so on players are going to be playing when they shouldn't - so arguing about players not being ready to return is simply flogging a dead horse. It might be correct to say a player should not have come back but the reality is athletes are usually risk takers, and there is a lot of pressure on them to play as well from coaches, fans... and so on.

Getting the playing surface safer / more consistent would seem just as important - and a hell of a lot easier to achieve.

What exactly are your qualifications?

Players take risks, yes, are injuries 100% avoidable? No. Can we lessen their chance, yep!! Conditioning has been proven to help with this. Genetic profiling can govern, to an extent, your suitability to a specific sport and your ability to adapt to demands of a specific sport regardless of conditioning efforts that counteract this. If conditioning was a non existent requirement of modern day sport/anything (e.g. Navy seals, military, labouring) then you wouldn't have had Brisbane roar ask experts/specialists to come in and analyze their training methodologies and facilities.

You're using an argument that because player X doesn't need to do it, no one else needs to (which is in fact an erroneous statement) is baffling at the very least. Professional baseball pitchers,for a start, are assessed and analysed at the commencement of each pitching session by MEDICAL personnel who are assessing for joint mechanics and kinematics. If there is even the remote indication of restriction present in the kinetic chain they are not encouraged to pitch that day or at the very least provided modified programmes to limit the chance of AVOIDABLE injury due to presence of known associative risk factors which lead to higher probability of injury. The purpose of conditioning programmes are to encourage and maintain ideal functioning of the relevant systems of the human body.

I recall Scott Neville playing in Melbourne for the jets and enduring a nasty head knock.. 10 mins later, bang, his knee collapses and ACL gone. How much effect did neurological insult have an influence on his musculoskeletal injury (affecting his capacity to plan, coordinate/sequence and execute a previously well trained motor skill of turning at speed)? We will never know but I do wonder, but hey let us just blame the pitch! When muscular injury is present, fatigue has a more rapid and damning impact leading to potential muscular inhibitions (increasing risk of joint injury) such as seen in boogards case. How many times has he jumped and landed without issue on the turf at turton rd? Perhaps it was just "bad luck" but the fact it was same knee and only just coming off a taxing road trip to Brisbane, perhaps it was a game he could have sat out if justified medical evidence was present- perhaps the risk was not suffice to suggest he was at great risk - then mind you they probably weren't planning on going down to 10 men and working with that extra percentage more intensely. .

You only need to take yourself to a random gym/crossfit near you to see that 'genetics' doesn't quite cut the mustard. Technique and conditioning will and always will be a massive set of contributing factors to risk of injury.

Improving playing surface and lighting. Yep, that would be great. Lowering risk of injury. However, this is a component. Not everything. Otherwise you'd never see track athletes pull up with a hammy strain.

Please, don't rubbish the crucial role that conditioning and sports science plays in keeping players playing week in and week out through basing it on the anecdotal evidence of an individual case in governing whether conditioning is relevant or not. Monitoring of training loads (ala Real Madrid, Aussie NT teams) closely observe and track how hard their prized assets have been worked throughout the weeks so as to minimise chance of AVOIDABLE injury come crunch time!

A well oiled machine will tend to run longer, harder and more efficiently with reduced risk of breakdown!! Not everyone is built with da Vinci proportions - even then conditioning to various degrees is important.

[plague]

does this discussion warrant an injuries and injury management thread?

perhaps in the off the ball

nah, this is the worst thread on the foz. it deserves to be constantly derailed.

[The Dunster]

What exactly are your qualifications?

Players take risks, yes, are injuries 100% avoidable? No. Can we lessen their chance, yep!! Conditioning has been proven to help with this. Genetic profiling can govern, to an extent, your suitability to a specific sport and your ability to adapt to demands of a specific sport regardless of conditioning efforts that counteract this. If conditioning was a non existent requirement of modern day sport/anything (e.g. Navy seals, military, labouring) then you wouldn't have had Brisbane roar ask experts/specialists to come in and analyze their training methodologies and facilities.

You're using an argument that because player X doesn't need to do it, no one else needs to (which is in fact an erroneous statement) is baffling at the very least. Professional baseball pitchers,for a start, are assessed and analysed at the commencement of each pitching session by MEDICAL personnel who are assessing for joint mechanics and kinematics. If there is even the remote indication of restriction present in the kinetic chain they are not encouraged to pitch that day or at the very least provided modified programmes to limit the chance of AVOIDABLE injury due to presence of known associative risk factors which lead to higher probability of injury. The purpose of conditioning programmes are to encourage and maintain ideal functioning of the relevant systems of the human body.

I recall Scott Neville playing in Melbourne for the jets and enduring a nasty head knock.. 10 mins later, bang, his knee collapses and ACL gone. How much effect did neurological insult have an influence on his musculoskeletal injury (affecting his capacity to plan, coordinate/sequence and execute a previously well trained motor skill of turning at speed)? We will never know but I do wonder, but hey let us just blame the pitch! When muscular injury is present, fatigue has a more rapid and damning impact leading to potential muscular inhibitions (increasing risk of joint injury) such as seen in boogards case. How many times has he jumped and landed without issue on the turf at turton rd? Perhaps it was just "bad luck" but the fact it was same knee and only just coming off a taxing road trip to Brisbane, perhaps it was a game he could have sat out if justified medical evidence was present- perhaps the risk was not suffice to suggest he was at great risk - then mind you they probably weren't planning on going down to 10 men and working with that extra percentage more intensely. .

You only need to take yourself to a random gym/crossfit near you to see that 'genetics' doesn't quite cut the mustard. Technique and conditioning will and always will be a massive set of contributing factors to risk of injury.

Improving playing surface and lighting. Yep, that would be great. Lowering risk of injury. However, this is a component. Not everything. Otherwise you'd never see track athletes pull up with a hammy strain.

Please, don't rubbish the crucial role that conditioning and sports science plays in keeping players playing week in and week out through basing it on the anecdotal evidence of an individual case in governing whether conditioning is relevant or not. Monitoring of training loads (ala Real Madrid, Aussie NT teams) closely observe and track how hard their prized assets have been worked throughout the weeks so as to minimise chance of AVOIDABLE injury come crunch time!

A well oiled machine will tend to run longer, harder and more efficiently with reduced risk of breakdown!! Not everyone is built with da Vinci proportions - even then conditioning to various degrees is important.

The more capacity the science gives the players the harder they will push their bodies towards breaking point - that's a fact.
The science of injury management / prevention as admirable as it might be is fighting a battle it cannot win - much like how drug testing is always going to be a step behind the doping programs.

I'm not taking the piss out of your job, I'm simply stating that the dynamics of the industry mean it's probably always going to be a case of never catching up.

If it does get on top and pretty much nullify injury that's not going to be good for the sport either - like it or not people want to see players break for all sorts of reasons from the theatre of it all to it giving opportunities for others to step up .. and so on.

[Macca]

There would still be injuries anyway. Sports science won't stop people hacking other players to bits and bad tackles.

I tend to agree that it will always be playing catchup and possibly with diminishing returns too. But at the end of the day, if they're still able to increase performance levels and reduce injury occurrence rates, seems like a win-win to me.

[The Dunster]

There would still be injuries anyway. Sports science won't stop people hacking other players to bits and bad tackles.

I tend to agree that it will always be playing catchup and possibly with diminishing returns too. But at the end of the day, if they're still able to increase performance levels and reduce injury occurrence rates, seems like a win-win to me.

I'm too old for it to concern me and don't have any children or grandchildren playing to worry about any of it from a personal perspective.

But in general I really think [and yes this is an opinion] that we are pushing kids / adults far too hard in sport - pretty much beyond the point of it actually being an enjoyable activity.

The science has also changed the way different sports are played and many of them have become very sterile and predictable as a result. Modern AFL perhaps the worst of it - but football as well is starting to slowly go the same way as well. Baseball ? pretty much beyond saving now.

[Macca]

I'm too old for it to concern me and don't have any children or grandchildren playing to worry about any of it from a personal perspective.

But in general I really think [and yes this is an opinion] that we are pushing kids / adults far too hard in sport - pretty much beyond the point of it actually being an enjoyable activity.

The science has also changed the way different sports are played and many of them have become very sterile and predictable as a result. Modern AFL perhaps the worst of it - but football as well is starting to slowly go the same way as well. Baseball ? pretty much beyond saving now.

All you gotta do is look at the English development system and to a lesser extent the Aussie one - very formalised; top down coaching, philosophy based, structured, well funded (debateable of course). Much of it designed and created with good intent and a lot of research and methodology behind it. Where has it gotten them? A lot of cookie cutter players who are "ok" but will never be great.

Then you look at the amount of players coming out of South America and Africa. Despite the best attempts of many, they [England] have not been able to synthesise the processes and environments which create star players. They may achieve it eventually but are not much closer at the moment - just producing a higher quality "average" player.

The thing that makes football beautiful (to me anyway) is the creativity, imagination, audacity of players with talent who break the mould and do the undoable. Players who are given structure from a young age cannot do this, only execute within their structure to a high level.

On a side note, I read a comment from Eric Dier the other day who before joining Spurs was brought through the ranks in Portugal. Upon returning to England he remarked how invasive and in your face the coaches were, micromanaging everything and abusing players for mistakes. He said in Portugal the coach hardly said anything during training, he expected players to recognise their own mistakes and find solutions to them on their own.

[The Dunster]

This is why I don't like Sydney FC. Sure they are good at what they do - but it's so predictable / boring. In fact that's pretty much Graham Arnold's style - the gypos suffered from it and Australia will to when he takes over.
Ernie Merrick on the other-hand coaches teams that will never die wondering. It's all about attack and entertainment. It can come unstuck at times - but more often than not this season at least it's led to a shit load of goals from open play.

With respect to the English system I think Kevin Keegan once commented that young players make money too easily these days and as such lack incentive to become the best.
Player goals are more or less focused toward a lifestyle target more so than simply wanting to be the best player in the world.

[rhysd]

The more capacity the science gives the players the harder they will push their bodies towards breaking point - that's a fact.
The science of injury management / prevention as admirable as it might be is fighting a battle it cannot win - much like how drug testing is always going to be a step behind the doping programs.

I'm not taking the piss out of your job, I'm simply stating that the dynamics of the industry mean it's probably always going to be a case of never catching up.

If it does get on top and pretty much nullify injury that's not going to be good for the sport either - like it or not people want to see players break for all sorts of reasons from the theatre of it all to it giving opportunities for others to step up .. and so on.

It is a world driven by reducing LTI (lossed time injury).

Conditioning is purely supplemental to the coaching of teams to play games in a certain way. It will be integral in a lot of game plans and strategies (e.g. Sydney trusting their sport science to keep their best 11 on the park, Newcastle trusting their sports science to encourage an up tempo/upbeat style of play with high octane pressing).

I never ever and no one ever will say that injuries are 100% avoidable- it is about minimising.

You were taking the piss out of my job and anyone with a qualification in Physiotherapy, sports science and conditioning, medicine in general, other associated degrees/extensive educations. I just found your viewpoint absurd, misleading and completely contrary to modern day training methodology.

Philosophy of playing style is another completely different factor / entity involved in training. Discuss as you want but injury prevention, as alluded to by macca, is something highly sought after by both player and club to maximise performance.

[The Dunster]

It is a world driven by reducing LTI (lossed time injury).

Conditioning is purely supplemental to the coaching of teams to play games in a certain way. It will be integral in a lot of game plans and strategies (e.g. Sydney trusting their sport science to keep their best 11 on the park, Newcastle trusting their sports science to encourage an up tempo/upbeat style of play with high octane pressing).

I never ever and no one ever will say that injuries are 100% avoidable- it is about minimising.

You were taking the piss out of my job and anyone with a qualification in Physiotherapy, sports science and conditioning, medicine in general, other associated degrees/extensive educations. I just found your viewpoint absurd, misleading and completely contrary to modern day training methodology.

Philosophy of playing style is another completely different factor / entity involved in training. Discuss as you want but injury prevention, as alluded to by macca, is something highly sought after by both player and club to maximise performance.

Again. Was not taking the piss out of your job.

But again if we can produce a more resilient type player it is inevitable they will simply be pushed harder by the system until they break.

And by system I am not referring to you or the medical side of things.

If i inadvertently offended you I appologise.