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View Full Version : 2012/13 Jets NSW Away Trips Supporters Bus Thread



furns
02-10-2012, 08:43 PM
OK everyone,
It seemed from last season there was a market for providing a direct coach service for under 18's and families to get to NSW away games. As such I am organising coaches with our good friends at Port Stephens Coaches for this season. This will enable us to get more supporters along to our games against Sydney FC, Central Coast Mariners and Western Sydney Wanderers by bringing along fans who dont want to travel via public transport.
A portion of ticket sales will be donated to The Squadron which all goes towards the tifo displays we deploy throughout the season. We would love to go bigger and better than the NEWCASTLE drop-down banner tifo from last season, so the more people who come along to NSW away trips will allow us to improve on and expand our displays in the future.

We thank all those who tried the service last season, and we look forward to even more people this season coming along to cheers on the Jets in Sydney, Western Sydney and Gosford.

Bookings are now open for the first NSW away game - Sydney FC vs Newcastle Jets @ Allianz Stadium Saturday 13th October kickoff 5:30pm.
Buses will depart Hunter Stadium carpark at a time to be confirmed (possibly 230pm) for Moore Park and then will depart for Newcastle 30 minutes after fulltime.
Cost for this trip per ticket will be $30 adult, $25 kids (u16), $100 family (2a2ch or 1ad3ch)
Online purchase is unfortunately unavailable for this trip but will be available for the rest of the season.

So to purchase your tickets please call Port Stephens Coaches direct on 49822940 during business hours

We will need to have enough numbers to ensure the service goes ahead so please purchase your tickets ASAP, we will have to make a decision by Tuesday 9th October as to whether we have sufficient bookings.
If the service is cancelled, we will notify everybody and all purchases will be refunded.

All future booking announcements will be posted in this thread on facebook and twitter

belchardo
02-10-2012, 08:53 PM
top work furns.

let me know when you set up the service from canberra. :)

furns
02-10-2012, 10:24 PM
yeah thats likely to happen ;)

I have also emailed the details to the Jets, who I am hoping will advertise the service in the Jets Insider emails they send out every couple of days

furns
02-10-2012, 11:55 PM
Have also popped a post up on 442 forums

Jetmaster
03-10-2012, 08:23 AM
Fantastic work - might use this, the train is a nightmare for a family and the car trip is just a right pain.

Good to see a family friendly bus too - I assume the Squadron have their own "fun bus" ?

hauss
03-10-2012, 10:33 AM
i just booked on. everyone please promote this widely via facebook, twitter etc. there is only a short amount of time until the Syd game and we want these coaches to go ahead.

furns
03-10-2012, 10:43 AM
Fantastic work - might use this, the train is a nightmare for a family and the car trip is just a right pain.

Good to see a family friendly bus too - I assume the Squadron have their own "fun bus" ?This is mainly for families and young uns. Most active supporters will get to Sydney earlier in the day to go to prematch pub.

q-money
03-10-2012, 11:16 AM
jerrences have put it up on da fasebooks, wd

furns
03-10-2012, 06:06 PM
Confirmed with PSC that coaches will leave Hunter Stadium at 2pm.

adamm237
04-10-2012, 11:31 AM
Brings back so many memories the old bus days.

furns
07-10-2012, 10:16 AM
reminder: decision will have to be made in a few days time whether this goes ahead so please get on the phone to PSC and book your seats ASAP

furns
08-10-2012, 05:38 PM
Online purchasing now available
http://pscoaches.com.au/whats-on.php#jets

Blackmac79
08-10-2012, 05:44 PM
Just tweeted it. twice.

While this week may not happen at least its all there for the next games. Will hopefully start getting good away support to those.

furns
09-10-2012, 09:22 AM
Still not quite at minimum numbers
I will have to make a call tomorrow morning whether the service goes ahead

Please post on FB, twitter, sms your friends, etc

hauss
11-10-2012, 11:06 AM
Just an update. newcastlefootball tweeted last night that this coach is definitely going ahead.

Good news. Hopefully it fills up today and tomorrow to supply some TIFO funding to the Squadron.

furns
11-10-2012, 11:26 AM
did Aaron Kearney mention it on breakfast yesterday?

hauss
11-10-2012, 11:56 AM
I wasn't listening. Maybe tweet him and ask.

HaydenDX101
11-10-2012, 11:03 PM
Hoping to go, haven't booked, do I still have time to get tickets?

furns
12-10-2012, 12:41 AM
Yeah mate get on the online link above and you can purchase them now.

Bookings will close off around midday

hauss
16-10-2012, 08:35 PM
Just some feedback regarding the coach.

Really good way to get to and from Sydney. There were a lot of women in groups and with their kids on board. Obviously its a good way for them to get to Sydney if they are a bit concerned about their safety on public transport.

Was pretty much full. Hopefully with a headstart and good promotion the coach to Parramatta will fill up too.

Good service for Jets fans. Well done Furns.

furns
16-10-2012, 09:21 PM
cheers mate was just about to post on this. PSC told us that 53 seats out of 57 sold, considering we only had less than a fortnight turnaround thats a fantastic result.

blurb below about next service to game against Wanderers on 10/11

http://www.newcastlefootball.net/home/2012/10/101112-jets-away-support-coaches-on-sale/

10/11/12 Jets Away Support Coaches ON SALE

After the success of the coach service put on for Jets supporters last season, The Squadron have decided to expand the service this season to cover all Jets away games against Sydney FC, Central Coast and Western Sydney Wanderers. These services will allow more families and under 16s to attend games who don’t wish to travel by public transport and just want to head straight to the stadiums.

Bookings are now open for the next NSW away game against Western Sydney Wanderers at Parramatta Stadium on Saturday, November 10th. Kick-off is at 5:30pm. You can purchase your tickets at any time online by visiting http://www.pscoaches.com.au/whats-on.php and clicking the Book Now link or you can call Port Stephens Coaches direct on 4982 2940 during business hours.

Coaches will depart the Hunter Stadium car park for Parramatta at 2pm and then will depart for the return trip to Newcastle 30 minutes after fulltime.

Cost for this trip per ticket will be $30 adult, $25 kids (u16), $100 family (two adults and two children or one adult and three children). These prices are for coach travel only and do not include a match ticket. All patrons are strongly advised to purchase any match tickets prior to booking their coach ticket.

A minimum number of supporters are required to ensure each service goes ahead. Those wishing to use coach services are urged to purchase their tickets as soon as possible. A decision for this service will be made by Wednesday November 7th as to whether sufficient bookings have been made. If the service is cancelled, customers will be notified and purchases will be refunded.

Coach seats are also available for sale to fixtures on 19 January 2013 vs CCM @ Bluetongue Stadium (tickets are $20 each or $75 family of 4) and 9th February vs WSW @ Campbelltown Stadium (ticket prices are same as Allianz/Parra stadium services). Feel free to purchase tickets now to secure your seats early.

A portion of ticket sales after a completed service will be donated to The Squadron for help with the tifo displays designed, manufactured and deployed by them throughout the season.

The coach service is booked by The Squadron on behalf of Newcastle Jets supporters with Port Stephens Coaches. Hunter Sports Group/Newcastle Jets FC have no involvement aside from promoting the service to its Members. Any enquiries for these coach services need to be directed to Port Stephens Coaches on the above number.

furns
19-10-2012, 09:32 AM
Ok we have been informed by HSG that due to Sid Foggs being one of their commercial partners, the Jets are no longer able to promote our coach service because we use Port Stephens Coaches.
I would ask all supporters to tweet/FB share the article on the front page to promote the WSW coach, as we now no longer have access to the Jets posting up the notice on their website.

Jeterpool
19-10-2012, 09:37 AM
Ok we have been informed by HSG that due to Sid Foggs being one of their commercial partners, the Jets are no longer able to promote our coach service because we use Port Stephens Coaches.
I would ask all supporters to tweet/FB share the article on the front page to promote the WSW coach, as we now no longer have access to the Jets posting up the notice on their website.

Do we (ie the forum) have an agreement with Port Stephens Coaches, or is it simply a long standing working relationship? Can we get better deals with Sid Foggs or can the jets organise coaches on the fans behalf instead?

Not being critical of PSC, just asking the question.

furns
19-10-2012, 09:42 AM
hauss would be able to answer the historical question better, but we went with PSC because we had worked with them before and they were actually interested in having us as a customer. Sid Foggs werent, or otherwise they would have returned phone calls and emails when we investigated the coach for last seasons final trip to SFC.

Jetmaster
19-10-2012, 10:40 AM
Pfft - saw one Foggies bus down there last week - totally emblazoned with Knights logos.

So many locals pointing at it laughing !

ForeverRed
19-10-2012, 05:43 PM
Pfft - saw one Foggies bus down there last week - totally emblazoned with Knights logos.

So many locals pointing at it laughing !

the men of football had a bus that was totally covered with knights logos, I was embarrassed to get on it

furns
19-10-2012, 10:24 PM
So Men of Football are running coach services with Sid Foggs?

:banghead:

hauss
21-10-2012, 05:07 PM
That's an interesting comment from the Jets admin. Did they offer any other comments or suggestions or just say they can't do it? Who did the comment come from. Sid Foggs isn't listed on the sponsors page of either the Knights or the Jets so they probably only provide contra travel for the teams. Seems strange that such a contra arrangement would bar them from promoting fan buses.

At the end of the day, they have the right to protect their sponsorship arrangements, so I've got no problems there. But it is interesting that they are willing to do so, seemingly at the expense of supporter interests.

The first question is whether they can't promote it at all or whether they just can't directly promote Port Stephens Coaches eg. can they promote a link to this site where we give the details?

The history with Port Stephens Coaches is as follows:

When we were looking to supply coaches in Season 1 of the A-League, I rang up a guy who organised concert tours etc and he recommended Port Stephens coaches as the best in the area for being professional and being easy to deal with. After ringing a few companies up, the owner/manager of Port Stephens Coaches was the only one really keen to deal with me because he said he could see the potential in the business. He was the only one who said his admin people would do all the bookings and collect payments and then pay us the profit (if any). So all I had to do was confirm the booking and make a decision if it would go ahead.

I was all for creating a long standing arrangement so that fans knew exactly who to call when an away game to Sydney was on. Having said that, Port Stephens Coaches still have to have competitive prices. They have done really well out of the association, particularly with the Grand Final bookings. Their admin people worked their arses off for us in taking bookings for the Grand Final but for us it went very smoothly. I was told that when Port Stephens Coaches ran out of their own buses for the Grand Final,they were getting other coach companies to sub-contract their buses to them. We were still being charged the same price per coach and Port Stephens Coaches were making less profit off them. I was also told that Sid Foggs renegged on an agreement to supply coaches to PSC late in the piece which made things very tricky for PSC - they had to scramble to get coaches from further afield but they handled it and none of it affected us. Sid Foggs sent their own coaches to the Grand Final. I guess there is nothing saying they can't try make money out of a grand final too but it could have made us look stupid if PSC couldn't supply the coaches they promised. There is no love lost between the two companies. Port Stephens Coaches also operates under the name Newcastle Coaches and has a website www.newcastlecoaches.com.au and Sid Foggs registered the website www.newcastlecoaches.com to direct traffic to their website.

They now have the added advantage of having their website set up so people can book over the net, which Sid Foggs don't have.

Having said all that, I think that because the coach travel is for the benefit of all Jets supporters, the way you approach it should be:
1) as easy to administrate as possible;
2) done in a way that can get as many Jets supporters going to away games as possible

If Port Stephens coaches is the best way to organise it, then the Jets should make it clear what the boundaries are around their sponsorship with Sid Foggs. As said above, can they promote a link to this website without mentioning Port Stephens coaches, because it is us who have booked the Charter with them, and Port Stephens Coaches do nothing except provide the Charter service for us. It could be any Charter company doing the service, it is The Squadron who are supplying the Coach Service for fans.

If going with Sid Foggs is the only way to secure promotion of the service, how would the booking arrangements work? Does someone like Furns have to do it all himself? Are Sid Foggs or the Jets willing to do the bookings for us? Are Sid Foggs willing to offer their coaches at a discount to us as part of their sponsorship or are the Jets willing to take over the whole thing and guarantee supplying coaches game in/game out?

I'm a bit skeptical because they have never shown any interest before.

furns
24-10-2012, 06:54 PM
We will need to make a decision on whether the coach to WSW goes ahead by Tuesday 30th October - so please jump on and book your tickets as soon as you can.

Chickenbuster
03-11-2012, 07:45 AM
I'm only now starting to plan the trip to the WSW game.

Is the supporters bus going? And if yes, is there a link to book the tickets?

furns
03-11-2012, 08:46 PM
At the moment the decision hasnt been taken to run it or not, as of right now coach is still on.
You can book tickets online at http://pscoaches.com.au/whats-on.php#jets and click Book Now link

We will make the call on wednesday whether the service goes ahead or not
If it is cancelled, all monies will be refunded

Chickenbuster
03-11-2012, 11:54 PM
Thanks, Furns, I think the Jets can do with a bit of support after the Perf game tonight ... :) A draw would have been nice ...

furns
03-11-2012, 11:59 PM
Its not a 5 hour trip on a plane, so we should do much better

;)

Chickenbuster
04-11-2012, 11:59 AM
We went to a Glory game last year (this 5 hour plain trip you've mentioned) ......... This 'cow-bell' from the supporters group (what do they call themselves?) is one wondrous thing ........ :D

Blackmac79
04-11-2012, 01:13 PM
After last nights games I have ambitions to steal said cowbell.

furns
04-11-2012, 01:36 PM
Anyone who is keen to come to Parra, please get your tickets on the coach ASAP, a decision will be made wednesday if we go ahead.

Please share/RT the article on our frontpage or the newcastlefootball page on FB

furns
07-11-2012, 12:15 PM
Unfortunately we have had to cancel the coach for saturday - just didnt get the numbers without the Jets passing on the message. We will inform everyone in due course whether we continue to run these services.

Anyone who has paid for seats will have their money refunded by PSC.

Superdylan
31-01-2013, 05:19 PM
We got a coach planned for campbelltown away?

q-money
31-01-2013, 05:50 PM
no

sh10
31-01-2013, 05:58 PM
We got a coach planned for campbelltown away?

Yeh, GVE. Or maybe Bridges as a backup.

q-money
31-01-2013, 07:34 PM
http://i47.tinypic.com/2gy696p.gif

hauss
31-01-2013, 07:50 PM
We got a coach planned for campbelltown away?

Some dude on the jets facebook page posted something about organising his own bus and asked for passengers. Can't remember where - somewhere amongst all the Jobe Wheelhouse rants.

Sid Foggs might have something to say about that but.

Superdylan
01-02-2013, 10:02 AM
Some dude on the jets facebook page posted something about organising his own bus and asked for passengers. Can't remember where - somewhere amongst all the Jobe Wheelhouse rants.

Sid Foggs might have something to say about that but.

Confirm a bus has been planned

It's just now all about numbers

q-money
01-02-2013, 10:06 AM
wd SD, good luck chief

this is the hard part

BodyNovo
01-02-2013, 10:07 AM
disco bus?

furns
01-02-2013, 10:21 AM
So much for PSC getting back to me about reorganising the Squadron service ffs

I would just like to clarify that this is NOT being organised by the Squadron, and as such any money made from it will be going into someones pocket.

MFKS
01-02-2013, 10:26 AM
Forgetting any funds the squadron makes out of this it is a shame the club can't get off their arse and get a bus or two or three or ten organised for all our games in NSW. Put it in the face of the 11k Member base and maybe more of the fans will make the effort to watch us V Smurfs Gypos WSW on the road. Not rocket science.

goaliepersempre
01-02-2013, 10:29 AM
Forgetting any funds the squadron makes out of this it is a shame the club can't get off their arse and get a bus or two or three or ten organised for all our games in NSW. Put it in the face of the 11k Member base and maybe more of the fans will make the effort to watch us V Smurfs Gypos WSW on the road. Not rocket science.

have you seen how the club has been run.... Usual sky is falling daily service of the jerks...

BodyNovo
01-02-2013, 10:29 AM
Forgetting any funds the squadron makes out of this it is a shame the club can't get off their arse and get a bus or two or three or ten organised for all our games in NSW. Put it in the face of the 11k Member base and maybe more of the fans will make the effort to watch us V Smurfs Gypos WSW on the road. Not rocket science.

that sounds like hard work

sif the club would do that.

furns
01-02-2013, 10:32 AM
The club agreed not to run a competing service against what the Squadron were attempting to run this season, then stopped promoting it to the members due to a "conflict of interest" as Sidd Foggs is a partner of HSG.

I have been attempting to get things moving behind the scenes so we arent pushing shit uphill trying to promote this with no help from the Jets, but its not something that can be done quickly. Plus I have two children, a business to run and a life of my ****ing own before I spend time on something that currently very few people utilise.

Now that someone else has decided to cut in and run something separate with no correspondence with me, I am really wondering whether I even bother.

hauss
01-02-2013, 04:45 PM
Can't believe it. They really are the Newcastle Jerks.

q-money
01-02-2013, 05:01 PM
The club agreed not to run a competing service against what the Squadron were attempting to run this season, then stopped promoting it to the members due to a "conflict of interest" as Sidd Foggs is a partner of HSG.

I have been attempting to get things moving behind the scenes so we arent pushing shit uphill trying to promote this with no help from the Jets, but its not something that can be done quickly. Plus I have two children, a business to run and a life of my ****ing own before I spend time on something that currently very few people utilise.

Now that someone else has decided to cut in and run something separate with no correspondence with me, I am really wondering whether I even bother.
this really is the gif of a thousand uses...newy jerks:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2gy696p.gif

MFKS
05-02-2013, 08:09 PM
The club agreed not to run a competing service against what the Squadron were attempting to run this season, then stopped promoting it to the members due to a "conflict of interest" as Sidd Foggs is a partner of HSG.

I have been attempting to get things moving behind the scenes so we arent pushing shit uphill trying to promote this with no help from the Jets, but its not something that can be done quickly. Plus I have two children, a business to run and a life of my ****ing own before I spend time on something that currently very few people utilise.

Now that someone else has decided to cut in and run something separate with no correspondence with me, I am really wondering whether I even bother.

Last few Yoof games I have been to there has been a Port Stephens Coaches Bus parked just outside Wanderers Oval. Would seem strange that a visiting club flying interstate wouldn't be using the Jets local bus company. Also pretty certain when down at WSW at Parra Stadium I was outside Wanderland and GVE and the boys drove in. Pretty certain they were in a Ports Stephens Coaches bus. Seems strange that they would be getting chaperoned to and from Newy by a rival to Sid Foggs particularly if HSG have commercial arrangement as you claim.

Will keep eye out at Campbelltown to see what bus we come on.

De-Champ
05-02-2013, 08:56 PM
Last few Yoof games I have been to there has been a Port Stephens Coaches Bus parked just outside Wanderers Oval. Would seem strange that a visiting club flying interstate wouldn't be using the Jets local bus company. Also pretty certain when down at WSW at Parra Stadium I was outside Wanderland and GVE and the boys drove in. Pretty certain they were in a Ports Stephens Coaches bus. Seems strange that they would be getting chaperoned to and from Newy by a rival to Sid Foggs particularly if HSG have commercial arrangement as you claim.

Will keep eye out at Campbelltown to see what bus we come on.

You do know that sid foggs owns port stephens coaches???

MFKS
05-02-2013, 09:10 PM
You do know that sid foggs owns port stephens coaches???

Wouldn't have a clue who Sid Foggs owns.

I thought the issue was Furns wasn't able to get much HSG approval/support to run a Port Stephens Coach to away games cause Sid Foggs were a HSG partner. If Port Stephens Coaches in owned by Sid Foggs where would the conflict of interest be for HSG???

seldom
06-02-2013, 02:28 AM
You do know that sid foggs owns port stephens coaches???

True...fvckin lol

hauss
06-02-2013, 07:32 AM
Wouldn't have a clue who Sid Foggs owns.

I thought the issue was Furns wasn't able to get much HSG approval/support to run a Port Stephens Coach to away games cause Sid Foggs were a HSG partner. If Port Stephens Coaches in owned by Sid Foggs where would the conflict of interest be for HSG???

The Port Stephens Coaches are supplied as part of a transport arrangement by the FFA. The FFA chose the coach supplier not the Jets. I think the Jets want Sid Foggs to do it in the future.

furns
06-02-2013, 01:18 PM
hauss is correct.
Murrays are the coach provider to the HAL. There is no Murrays presence in Newy so they pass the work to PSC.

Sid Foggs have nothing to do with PSC.

MFKS
06-02-2013, 03:38 PM
:confused:
hauss is correct.
Murrays are the coach provider to the HAL. There is no Murrays presence in Newy so they pass the work to PSC.

Sid Foggs have nothing to do with PSC.

Seems strange that HSG would be allowed to have a commercial arrangement with Sid Foggs if they are not a FFA approved commercial partner. FFA are pretty strict on clubs not having sponsors conflict with FFA partners.:confused:

Not doubting your story Furns but it would appear HSG are Bullshitting you a bit with their version of why they can't/won't help

hauss
07-02-2013, 10:36 AM
:confused:

Seems strange that HSG would be allowed to have a commercial arrangement with Sid Foggs if they are not a FFA approved commercial partner. FFA are pretty strict on clubs not having sponsors conflict with FFA partners.:confused:

Not doubting your story Furns but it would appear HSG are Bullshitting you a bit with their version of why they can't/won't help

It would not be a sponsorship. It would just be an exclusivity arrangement to get the best price for supplying coaches for the clubs between airports/hotels/stadiums and cities where no air travel is required. The FFA has a duty to supply transport as part of the A-League participation agreement.

The Knights have a long standing partnership with Sid Foggs and they have a policy of securing sponsorships across both codes, so I don't see why you think they would be bullshitting him.

I personally wouldn't care if Sid Foggs offerred exactly the best service, but they don't. Port Stephens coaches are willing to take bookings over the phone and through their website, so they take all the admin work off you. Sid Foggs (to my knowledge) are not yet able to do this. The farcical thing is that HSG stopped promoting the Squadron coaches but are now letting this other guy advertise his booking and his booking is with PORT STEPHENS COACHES!!!

There is no logic to it.

The thing that gets me, is that when HSG took over, I rang them up and asked them if they were organising coaches for the supporters. They told me that they had a meeting and decided they didn't want to do it. So take it back over then and get Sid Foggs to do it for you. Don't stuff people around.

adamm237
08-02-2013, 08:20 AM
It would not be a sponsorship. It would just be an exclusivity arrangement to get the best price for supplying coaches for the clubs between airports/hotels/stadiums and cities where no air travel is required. The FFA has a duty to supply transport as part of the A-League participation agreement.

The Knights have a long standing partnership with Sid Foggs and they have a policy of securing sponsorships across both codes, so I don't see why you think they would be bullshitting him.

I personally wouldn't care if Sid Foggs offerred exactly the best service, but they don't. Port Stephens coaches are willing to take bookings over the phone and through their website, so they take all the admin work off you. Sid Foggs (to my knowledge) are not yet able to do this. The farcical thing is that HSG stopped promoting the Squadron coaches but are now letting this other guy advertise his booking and his booking is with PORT STEPHENS COACHES!!!

There is no logic to it.

The thing that gets me, is that when HSG took over, I rang them up and asked them if they were organising coaches for the supporters. They told me that they had a meeting and decided they didn't want to do it. So take it back over then and get Sid Foggs to do it for you. Don't stuff people around.

This other guy is not just some random organising the buses. Its me who has been around for years. So stop making it seem like some alien has come and taken over.
Anyway bus isnt running could only get 28 people on it. If the bus was filled all money was going to be given back to the squadron for Tifos and stuff anyway as I discussed with Furns.

Just for the record the jets were meant to put out a thing about it on facebook but never did. So they havent been that helpful.

hauss
09-02-2013, 07:41 AM
This other guy is not just some random organising the buses. Its me who has been around for years. So stop making it seem like some alien has come and taken over.
Anyway bus isnt running could only get 28 people on it. If the bus was filled all money was going to be given back to the squadron for Tifos and stuff anyway as I discussed with Furns.

Just for the record the jets were meant to put out a thing about it on facebook but never did. So they havent been that helpful.

Sorry if you got that impression, but I don't have an issue with you or your willingness to put on a coach. Anyone who shows initiative should be congratulated. I would have been happy if your coach went ahead. I wasn't trying to stop it. It is the hypocrisy of the club on the issue that has really annoyed me because furns had pre-booked coaches to away games through Port Stephens coaches at the start of the year so that they could be run as professionally as possible and supporters could plan their travel in advance, but they had to be cancelled when the Jets refused to promote them at all. Furns booked them through the Squadron association so that no one individual had to take full responsibility for it. We had been doing it for years like this and IMO it is the best way to do it. I just find it amazing that they did this to him and then let you promote your coach.

All I think is that the Jets need to be clear about what they are on about. People volunteer their time doing this stuff and spend many unpaid hours of personal time on it. Can't you see the issue?