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furns
08-10-2012, 02:43 PM
I can see there being contentious decisions throughout the season, so post in here any dodgy decisions and maybe any local refs or people who could quote the rules can say whether it was correct or not?

First up Birraz red card Rd 1.
As far as I was aware, for it to be a red card it had to be an intentional or deliberate movement for handball. Ball hit his chest first then rebounded, so how could that have been deliberate? Or do I have the rules wrong?

Thomas477
08-10-2012, 02:50 PM
First up Birraz red card Rd 1.
As far as I was aware, for it to be a red card it had to be an intentional or deliberate movement for handball. Ball hit his chest first then rebounded, so how could that have been deliberate? Or do I have the rules wrong?

Agreed, last I looked it was intentional. Even if it did stop a goal scoring chance, wheres the foul? Are the HAL refs going to be giving out red cards when a keeper makes a save or a defender gets in the way? It was an absolute joke of a decision.

Got to feel sorry for Birghitti about the management not having the balls to appeal it.

The Dunster
08-10-2012, 02:53 PM
Waving your hands around and assuming a star jump position outside the box would be considered intentional.

If he jumped with his hands behind his back or by his sides then we might have a case.

Ref got it right.

pistolpete
08-10-2012, 02:59 PM
When you jump to heads or chest the ball your arms raise up to keep your balance. I can see both arguments but i would lean towards a yellow

Bremsstrahlung
08-10-2012, 03:00 PM
To quote somebody else in another thread, when he comes out like an albatross, arms wide open in the arm, away from his body, he is asking for trouble. His intention was to block the ball. Spreading his arms was intentional to make himself larger. If the ball hits his arm directly, I have no hesitations in the Red. But, as it came off his chest and onto the arm, it's really free interpretation. IMO, I have no issue with the decision, ref had a split second to react, he had all the Adelaide players screaming for a red and see's Birigehtti coming out with his arms out and ball appears to come off the arm, no question - red. However, If ref sees the ball come off his chest then onto the arm, it could go 50-50 for me. In 90% of situations now, if the players arm is away from his body, and the ball strikes it, it will be given hand ball. His arms don't have to be there. You see so many defenders, I know I do now, in and around the box, defending with their arms behind their back to stop a cross hitting their arm and being deemed a penalty/free kick.
Personally, I hate the terminology "deliberately", nobody knows if it were deliberate except the player.

Ref made far worse decisions as far as I'm concerned. On another day, we could have had 3 penalties.

Thomas477
08-10-2012, 03:06 PM
Bremsstrahlung, he had longer than that and could have consulted his linesman. Even if he did give the red, it should have been rescinded upon further investigation by the Match Review Committee.


Waving your hands around and assuming a star jump position outside the box would be considered intentional.

If he jumped with his hands behind his back or by his sides then we might have a case.

Ref got it right.

Law 12 states. "denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball".

Interpretation says:


Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement

Even if he came out with his hands out, he did not deliberately handle the ball. The ball rebounded off his chest and hit his upper arm. Never did he move his hand towards the ball after the rebound other than his momentum.

The Dunster
08-10-2012, 03:18 PM
Thomas477 makes a good case.

In the rules of baseball a strike is anything over the plate, above the knee, and below the chest.
By convention anything outside 6" above or below the players belt line is rarely if ever called a strike.

In football, by convention jumping around with your hands in the air like Birgs did is an intentional and indeed deliberate act to deny the opposition a goal scoring opportunity.

Hence, while the rules say we were robbed I'm guessing that by convention we were not.

Thomas477
08-10-2012, 03:23 PM
In football, by convention jumping around with your hands in the air like Birgs did is an intentional and indeed deliberate act to deny the opposition a goal scoring opportunity.

Hence, while the rules say we were robbed I'm guessing that by convention we were not.

I'm not denying he came out spreadeagled, had the ball hit his hand directly I would have agreed that it was a red card, but given it took the deflection off his chest he could not have moved his hand away from the balls path. Thats my main issue with it, the fact that it took a deflection, if it hadn't I would be in complete agreement with you.

Bremsstrahlung
08-10-2012, 05:25 PM
I don't have a problem with it.
Why does he come out with his arms outstretched? He's trying to make himself bigger, harder to get around, to give himself an advantage. It is his intention to have his arms open.
Whether it deflects or not, the ball still hits his arm, which is intentionally placed to give himself an advantage. He gains an advantage having his hand there, and having the ball hit his arm. Free Kick. Since it was a goal scoring opportunity, Red Card.

EDIT: Strawman's argument. Corner, Keeper comes out to punch it clear, falls, player on goal line raises his hands to appeal a free-kick. Striker has a shot, deflects off a player and strikes the players hand before being cleared off the line.

parksey
08-10-2012, 06:02 PM
I don't think he gave the ref much choice. Yes it did rebound off his chest, but his arms were out in an unnatural position and he ran the risk of the ball coming into contact with them. Once the ref deems it to be handball there really isn't any other option but to send him off.

seldom
08-10-2012, 06:20 PM
obviously the club don't think they've got a case

WolfMan
08-10-2012, 06:24 PM
Waving your hands around and assuming a star jump position outside the box would be considered intentional.

If he jumped with his hands behind his back or by his sides then we might have a case.

Ref got it right.

This. Unlucky but the Ref was left with no choice. I was miles away but first reaction was Red Card

sammydog
08-10-2012, 07:40 PM
I don't think he gave the ref much choice. Yes it did rebound off his chest, but his arms were out in an unnatural position and he ran the risk of the ball coming into contact with them. Once the ref deems it to be handball there really isn't any other option but to send him off.

Unnatural would be jumping with your hands by your side.

parksey
08-10-2012, 07:41 PM
Unnatural would be jumping with your hands by your side.

who jumps with their arms out like that?

militiamon
08-10-2012, 07:44 PM
Jeez, how far do we want to take this intentional/unintentional debate. Are defenders allowed to do star jumps in walls now? How about erryone runs around doing aeroplanes.

You have to draw a line at some point, and I'd say a keeper jumping up with his arms stretched out is a pretty safe call for a red. If Galekovic had done something similar and gotten away with it there would have been a riot.

Bremsstrahlung
08-10-2012, 07:50 PM
Unnatural would be jumping with your hands by your side.

Not for somebody trying to avoid infringing the laws of the game. If you were playing on the field, would you launch yourself at the ball like he did with arms outstretched? I argue most people would have their arms across their chest to jump and then turn their back.
Oh well, decision made. Consequences too be had. Seen too many similar send offs this year in NBN to expect anything different.

sammydog
08-10-2012, 08:29 PM
who jumps with their arms out like that?

Who runs and jumps with their arms static by their side. Go out side and try it.

sammydog
08-10-2012, 08:31 PM
Jeez, how far do we want to take this intentional/unintentional debate. Are defenders allowed to do star jumps in walls now? How about erryone runs around doing aeroplanes.


Jumping in a wall from a static position is an entirely different motion to jumping while running.

pistolpete
08-10-2012, 08:34 PM
Who runs and jumps with their arms static by their side. Go out side and try it.

http://www.dphotographer.co.uk/users/19332/thm1024/1310741867__DSC5530.jpg

belchardo
08-10-2012, 08:40 PM
http://www.dphotographer.co.uk/users/19332/thm1024/1310741867__DSC5530.jpg

clearly not running.

militiamon
08-10-2012, 08:41 PM
Hold up, you are trying to say that this is a natural jump:

http://i.imgur.com/b3duK.png

:rof:

pistolpete
08-10-2012, 08:52 PM
clearly not running.

Sif. Seal's name is Jesus :P

gd___
08-10-2012, 09:43 PM
He clearly jumped with his arms as far away from the flight of the ball as he could get them, as it was heading straight for his chest. Once the ball hit his chest he made no deliberate movement of his hand towars the ball and Adelaide were no longer in an obvious goal scoring position so no red card (or even a freekick).

seldom
08-10-2012, 09:52 PM
Jeez, how far do we want to take this intentional/unintentional debate. Are defenders allowed to do star jumps in walls now?

sums it up nicely

pistolpete
08-10-2012, 09:58 PM
He clearly jumped with his arms as far away from the flight of the ball as he could get them, as it was heading straight for his chest. Once the ball hit his chest he made no deliberate movement of his hand towars the ball and Adelaide were no longer in an obvious goal scoring position so no red card (or even a freekick).

Holy shit! Is that THE GD?

gd___
08-10-2012, 10:07 PM
Holy shit! Is that THE GD?
Yeah, I don't remember having THE in front of my name before, but the new forum wouldn't let me have just the two letters in my username.

parksey
08-10-2012, 10:59 PM
Who runs and jumps with their arms static by their side. Go out side and try it.

I know if I was running at someone and not wanting to handle the ball I wouldn't be chucking a christ air in front of my opponent.

hawk
08-10-2012, 11:09 PM
Once the ball hit his body the ball wasnt going in. Hands behind back = only lose 1 nil.

Ref should have sent himself off well before that incident.

GazFish35
08-10-2012, 11:37 PM
Is chasing Toyota sponsorship.
Doesn't understand double eff aye's exclusivity contracts.
Poor kid.
Will be at victory next season trying to oust Vehlapi.

moses
09-10-2012, 07:56 AM
He should have headed it .That's what i used to do when defenders left me high and dry.
Always worked for me.

pistolpete
09-10-2012, 08:00 AM
Yeah, I don't remember having THE in front of my name before, but the new forum wouldn't let me have just the two letters in my username.

Welcome back mate. Haven't seen you post for ages. Brings back some memories of the good old days

MFKS
09-10-2012, 11:13 AM
Biggest question still not asked is what the **** was he doing out there??

Could have easily let Vidosic control the ball and advance on goal. Stayed in his box and then tried to stop the 1 on 1

the_butcher
09-10-2012, 11:40 AM
Biggest question still not asked is what the **** was he doing out there??

Could have easily let Vidosic control the ball and advance on goal. Stayed in his box and then tried to stop the 1 on 1

He made up his mind and committed 100%, Id never blame a keeper for doing that. Much better than a keeper without confidence who changes his mind. A bigger question would be why did Mitchell balls it up in the first place.

militiamon
09-10-2012, 11:41 AM
Member, please see this post:


And you can debate the red card all you like, the real question is wtf he was doing in the position in the first place. He was actually lucky that he got the red card, it distracted everyone from seeing what a shocking decision it was by him to come out so early.

I agree with you completely. I wonder what the reaction would be if Vidosic had simply ran the ball past him and slotted it into an open net.


Edit: Agree that Mitchell made a huge ****-up as well, that cannot be forgotten. I liked him in pre-season, but on the basis of that performance I think he deserves to be dropped for the next game.

GazFish35
09-10-2012, 11:45 AM
I blame BK.

sammydog
09-10-2012, 12:45 PM
Couple of comments from Clint Boltons twitter feed today.


The more I watch @MarkBirraz send off the more I'm convinced it wasn't a red card offence... #ALeague


@markbirraz jumped before shot...no one jumps with arms beside their body...no movement of arm towards ball = no intent!!


@markbirraz natural movement of arms to make his chest, torso as big as possible, but no intent to handball...

MFKS
09-10-2012, 01:10 PM
I totally agree it wasn't a red. Can forgive the ref on one hand. In that split second call had to be made but unfortunately he got it wrong.

What I can't forgive the ref for was his general ineptness the rest of the game. Every call went Adelaide's way all day. There were plenty that could have gone our way and we got none. Djite and Bowles should have been booked and weren't. Boogard should have given away a penalty for the 4 handballs in the box in one play. The free kick to Adelaide when we forced a turn over on the edge of the box and had numbers everywhere for Griff diving in and missing the Reds player by a yard. WTF Not to mention the 20 petty free kicks awarded to Adelaide for minor minor offences.
Heskey gets dragged down just out\side the box with Golec all over him and gets nothing.

The added time. 3 mins in the 2nd half?? The send off wasted 2 mins and 30 seconds. Ritter was down for a bit. Subs on and off and only 3 mins??

First Half there was only 1 min after Malik lied on the ground for ages after Jobe put the shoulder in and don't forget Heskey's bitch's hystoronics after Heskey laid him out. 1 Minute.?? WTF

Ref was diabolical on many levels. Cost us the game NO but the clown was a Disc Race

belchardo
09-10-2012, 01:27 PM
What I can't forgive the ref for was his general ineptness the rest of the game.

i agree (however i don't think it cost us the game), the ref looked like he came out thinking "first game, big crowd, mustn't let that sway me".

sh10
09-10-2012, 01:40 PM
Boogard should have given away a penalty for the 4 handballs in the box in one play.

How does Birra get booked for spreading his arms and the ball coming off his torso but yet Boogard spreads his arms, fondles the ball repeatedly on the ground yet not even a penalty? Terrible refereeing.

Bremsstrahlung
09-10-2012, 02:01 PM
The one thing I do agree with, from Bolton's Twitter, is that the ball on route for goal hits his chest, changes route - away from goal and hits his arm. From this view I'd say Yellow Card.
I have no doubt that it was an intentional handball. Not intending to handle the ball obviously, but intending to gain an advantage by spreading his arms. (If you were a defender, you would not try and block a cross by jumping with your arms like he did). Definite Free Kick and Yellow.

I still think, from the evidence available at the time (Remember he doesn't have the luxury of viewing a slow motion replay, 20 time cover before making a decision.), it was fair decision. Watching in real time, it looks like it come straight off his arms. I think he missed much worse on Sunday.

GazFish35
09-10-2012, 02:17 PM
I think he missed much worse on Sunday.

Gospel

Thomas477
09-10-2012, 08:13 PM
The one thing I do agree with, from Bolton's Twitter, is that the ball on route for goal hits his chest, changes route - away from goal and hits his arm. From this view I'd say Yellow Card.
I have no doubt that it was an intentional handball. Not intending to handle the ball obviously, but intending to gain an advantage by spreading his arms. (If you were a defender, you would not try and block a cross by jumping with your arms like he did). Definite Free Kick and Yellow.

I know I've been vocal about it not being a handball, but since when has the rule stated that handball is defined by gaining an advantage by spreading your arms? Last I looked it was deliberately using your hands to affect the ball. Biraz's intent was to stop Vidosic getting the ball past him, which he did when he chested it. Anything after that is accidental.

hawk
09-10-2012, 10:17 PM
Just waiting for another trivial send off this w/e.

Bremsstrahlung
09-10-2012, 10:21 PM
I know I've been vocal about it not being a handball, but since when has the rule stated that handball is defined by gaining an advantage by spreading your arms? Last I looked it was deliberately using your hands to affect the ball. Biraz's intent was to stop Vidosic getting the ball past him, which he did when he chested it. Anything after that is accidental.

His arms were deliberately placed in that position to give himself an advantage. (Surely, he doesn't naturally jump like that? Tell me, what defender would jump at an attacker like that if he was trying to cross the ball into the box?)
In my opinion, he's intentionally moving his hands into a position he knows the ball could/will go. When ball strikes, said arm, he has intentionally impeded the ball. To me, the fact it comes of his chest, doesn't suddenly change his intentions.

parksey
10-10-2012, 12:03 AM
Even as a goal keeper, once he comes out of the box, he has no right to have his hands/arms out like that and the ref has no choice. People are saying it should have been yellow because it was "an accident", but he was the last man and the ball struck his arm.

Thomas477
10-10-2012, 12:28 AM
His arms were deliberately placed in that position to give himself an advantage. (Surely, he doesn't naturally jump like that? Tell me, what defender would jump at an attacker like that if he was trying to cross the ball into the box?)
In my opinion, he's intentionally moving his hands into a position he knows the ball could/will go. When ball strikes, said arm, he has intentionally impeded the ball. To me, the fact it comes of his chest, doesn't suddenly change his intentions.

This is good debate :D

Yes his hands were probably in an in-natural position but my point is twofold, 1, when has holding your arm out to gain an advantage over the opposition a "handball"? And on this, the rules state, "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement".

2nd, the ball did not hit his arm directly, the fact is that Dario kicked it into his chest. This was Biraz's intent was to stop Dario kicking it past him. He does this by using his chest. The ball then rebounds off his chest towards the corner, away from danger, and he could not get his arm out of the way of the deflection which is what caused the handball ergo accidental ergo not a handball

Bremsstrahlung
10-10-2012, 09:28 AM
This is good debate :D

Yes his hands were probably in an in-natural position but my point is twofold, 1, when has holding your arm out to gain an advantage over the opposition a "handball"? And on this, the rules state, "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement".

2nd, the ball did not hit his arm directly, the fact is that Dario kicked it into his chest. This was Biraz's intent was to stop Dario kicking it past him. He does this by using his chest. The ball then rebounds off his chest towards the corner, away from danger, and he could not get his arm out of the way of the deflection which is what caused the handball ergo accidental ergo not a handball

Tis indeed a good debate. I can definitely see your point, to an extent, though I disagree.

Holding his hand to gain an advantage isn't the handball. The handball is when the ball hits his arm - which has been intentionally placed (If we wan't to get into nitty gritty, on the slow motion, it shows his arm make a movement towards the ball, from memory....). Just because the rule states, "does not necessarily" doesn't translate to "never".

2 Examples:
1. Harry Kewell World Cup Send off. I don't believe this was a send off. I think the interpretation of, "does not necessarily" applies here. His arm is across his chest. If his arm is not there, it hits his chest/abdomen. Similarly, players in the wall who cover their man parts. If the ball was to hit their arm in this case, although arms are in an unnatural position, I don't think such case would be punishable even with a free kick.
2. Players in the wall all stand next to each other, in star jump positions. Ball hits their arm, which is raised from their side, Hand ball. Do you not agree? Similarly, if the ball was to rebound off a players chest in the wall, and hit another players arm it would be handball (in my opinion at least).

The Slow Motion replay, shows the ball hit the chest, then the arm. Watch it in real time, you can barely see the deviation. In real time, it would appear simultaneous.
In Summary, I think it is a handball, punishable by a free kick. I can see the reasoning behind a Red Card. But i can also see the argument that a Yellow Card could be given for as the ball was not travelling toward goal after it hit his chest.

Agree to Disagree I guess.




Semi-related: Does anybody know how the appeal process works? Does the defendant propose their argument to the panel, who then make a decision? Or is their also a prosecutor type figure who reinforces the laws and why, by law, something is deemed a send off, and they make their decision?
Either way, I don't think all 3/4 panel members would say that was not handball. So probably a good move not contesting it.

MFKS
10-10-2012, 08:18 PM
As far as the appeal processes go I think there are only certain avenues you can appeal on. Serious offences such as High Five Danny Vukobitch you can appeal on the length of suspension being excessive.

You can also appeal if in the event of say a brawl takes place and ref sends off Player A yet Player A done nothing and the ref should have been sending off Player B who had been laying the smack down on all comers. Usually this is easily sorted as the governing body ie the FFA will look at the whole incident and then charge Player B and whoever else done the wrong thing and drop any sanctions on Player A.

The wrongful identity thing can come up in other incidences where player a commits foul warranting yellow and runs away. Player B who has already been booked appears on the scene and the ref then waves the yellow at him then checks his note book and realises player B has been booked already issues the red

The other area you can appeal is when the ref makes a complete **** up as happened in last years New Years Eve game where Billy Mehmet got sent off for a foul that never took place. The ref who I think was Stebre seen something that no one else in the ground or TV camera picked up and waved a red. Perth appealed and Mehmet got off

As far as incidents involving Birraz go I don't think there is much room for maneuvering with incidents such as this that are the subject of opinion. Even in our midst their are two pretty strong views as to what should have occurred and I believe the Appeal process is set up in such a way to negate clubs appealing incidents such as this that are open to interpretation. Otherwise the appeals committee would have a full time job.

In the Jets case why would you fight the call?? 1 week suspension BK can fill in this week. Not the end of the world and no need to start a new war with the FFA over this. Easier to let it go. At the end of the day Birraz should learn from this and it will hopefully be a good positive learning experience for him long term to develop his game

pv4
12-10-2012, 03:11 PM
how about jobe's run that was body-checked by daniel bowles around 50mins in?

<5 mins before, heskeytime did the exact same thing jobe did, which was to take a heavy touch to push past the player then work the player into a foul (heskeytime did it to boogard) and boogs got a yellow card. bowles does exactly the same, and it actually is a fair bit worse as it's directly stopping the run from an opposing direction as opposed to boogs running alongside heskeytime, and the ref gives a foul but no yellow.

serious lack of consistency, which highlights how poor the reffing in the hal really is when you compile all these poor choices together across an entire season.

Grimario
12-10-2012, 03:13 PM
how about jobe's run that was body-checked by daniel bowles around 50mins in?

<5 mins before, heskeytime did the exact same thing jobe did, which was to take a heavy touch to push past the player then work the player into a foul (heskeytime did it to boogard) and boogs got a yellow card. bowles does exactly the same, and it actually is a fair bit worse as it's directly stopping the run from an opposing direction as opposed to boogs running alongside heskeytime, and the ref gives a foul but no yellow.

serious lack of consistency, which highlights how poor the reffing in the hal really is when you compile all these poor choices together across an entire season.

Yeah but didn't Booger get his for persistent fouling, not just for that one off incident?

pv4
12-10-2012, 03:24 PM
they were both yellow card worthy imo, as well as bowles's effort on goodwin later (which got a yellow).

Thomas477
28-10-2012, 05:01 PM
Alright then, Jeronimo dive or not?

IMO I reckon he dived. There was Siggy pushing him but not enough for him to fall over.

sh10
28-10-2012, 05:19 PM
massive dive, durante what a legend, telling it like it is. walking off the field, fox asked him to talk us through the 2nd half, durante goes "He's a cheat"

even bozza didn't have the balls to tell it like it is on the post match, and rudan was too preoccupied joining words together to form semi-coherent sentences

amusing tweet they showed on fox - "Did Jeronimo Neumann yell out his own name as he plummeted to the ground?" :gent:

jeronimo needs to get a 3 match suspension and sigmund get his card rescinded. what a farce

sh10
28-10-2012, 06:21 PM
hmm...Sydney just got a pen, Emerton went down rather dramatically. It was a bit different to the Jeronimo farce in that it was definitely a foul, a lot more contact, I just don't like the accentuation of contact

P.S. Del Piero cheating in the race for the golden boot by taking pens

seldom
28-10-2012, 07:30 PM
If you went back through the ages and counted the number of forwards taking a dive around or in the box it would add up to billions...get over it ffs

MFKS
28-10-2012, 07:48 PM
massive dive, durante what a legend, telling it like it is. walking off the field, fox asked him to talk us through the 2nd half, durante goes "He's a cheat"

even bozza didn't have the balls to tell it like it is on the post match, and rudan was too preoccupied joining words together to form semi-coherent sentences

amusing tweet they showed on fox - "Did Jeronimo Neumann yell out his own name as he plummeted to the ground?" :gent:

jeronimo needs to get a 3 match suspension and sigmund get his card rescinded. what a farce

Not condoneing the disgraceful dive from Jeronimo but how can you back what Durante said on TV??
Last week the FFA failed to sanction the wanker that is Hutcho for his sarcastic rant after the F3 derby about the refs level of competence. This week the Nix captain calls another player a cheat and the linesman incompetent.

Where the hell is this leading if it not stamped out now???

Referees are all blind incompetent creatures but should be treated with a bit more respect from the players/clubs when they get the decisions go against them. Yeah let the fans whinge bitch and moan but the players and club should be keeping any gripes "in house" and not in the public forum via the media. All this is doing is placing bigger pressure on the officials which will result in more poor performances.

In my opinion Jeronimo should be rubbed out for his disgraceful dive and Durante should be rubbed out for even longer for his disgraceful display of poor sportsmanship. After watching Dura's pathetic behaviour in the pre season match at Weston I am hardly surprised at his current rant. He was a disgrace that night and a disgrace last night to his club and what it purports to represent.

Each team get good calls each team get bad calls. FFS carrying on over bad calls the way he did is a disgrace and not needed in our wonderful game. FFA need to clamp down on this NOW before it gets way out of hand

sh10
28-10-2012, 08:08 PM
completely disagree with you member, where is the accountability of its all hush hush? You wont get anything fixed unless people start telling it how it is

MFKS
28-10-2012, 08:22 PM
completely disagree with you member, where is the accountability of its all hush hush? You wont get anything fixed unless people start telling it how it is

Since when is telling as it is gonna fix anything?? Referees have made mistakes and errors since the game started. They will continue to make errors into the future. I don't think you would find anyone on the planet who follows this game who doesn't want to see improved refereeing standards.

What is this issue here isn't the referees errors because they make them all the time!!! The issue here is the over the top carrying on by players bringing the game into disrepute by their comments about the refereeing.

We are not talking about a player saying "Don't agree with that decision" or "We got some tough calls tonight go against us" or similar comments we have 2 players completely crossing the line on sportsmanship and professionalism by their comments on their games officiating and basically indicating some form of bias going against them and implying the referee/officials were cheats.

Sure we benefited from a few good calls against the Gypos but did Ben Williams cheat on our behalf?? No he made shit calls all day long for both teams and FORTUNATELY the big ones went our way at the Gypos expense!!! Does that make him a cheat or biased?? No it just makes him a human who had a bad day at work and got some calls wrong.

parksey
28-10-2012, 08:46 PM
tbh i thought it was a foul from sigmund, it's just a shame jeronimo went down so theatrically.

Thomas477
28-10-2012, 09:06 PM
tbh i thought it was a foul from sigmund, it's just a shame jeronimo went down so theatrically.

This is it summed up. I don't think alot of people are arguing Sigmund fouled him (but it was doubtful the ref would have called it and given a red card), moreso that Jeronimo dived which forced the ref's hand.

sh10
28-10-2012, 10:30 PM
We are not talking about a player saying "Don't agree with that decision" or "We got some tough calls tonight go against us" or similar comments we have 2 players completely crossing the line on sportsmanship and professionalism by their comments on their games officiating and basically indicating some form of bias going against them and implying the referee/officials were cheats.

Durante said jeronimo was a cheat, not the refs

Thomas477
28-10-2012, 10:36 PM
Durante said jeronimo was a cheat, not the refs

But he did basically call them incompetent.

MFKS
28-10-2012, 10:37 PM
Durante said jeronimo was a cheat, not the refs

HE said something also about the linesman and the ref. That was totally not called for and a reflection of his whining mentality and poor sportsmanship


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAVlNiM8T-o

Bremsstrahlung
28-10-2012, 11:22 PM
Firstly. If during the game, Durante alludes/says that referee is a cheat. That's a straight red.


Do the Refs come out after each game and say, "Look, Durante played terribly tonight. I don't know what he was doing, but it wasn't playing football."

Yeh, they have some shockers, just like players. Our players aren't word class, Premier League players (bar the obvious) here in the A-league, so our referees shouldn't be judged as world class/premier league standard referees....

sh10
28-10-2012, 11:59 PM
Firstly. If during the game, Durante alludes/says that referee is a cheat. That's a straight red.

Durante didn't allude to, imply or state that the referee was a cheat. Listen to the clip, he said that Jeronimo is a cheat, which he is.

Durante said that the officials were incompetent and that the linesman should have picked up that it was a dive. Telling it like it is. Some people can't handle truth bombs.

Pico
29-10-2012, 08:40 AM
Durante didn't allude to, imply or state that the referee was a cheat. Listen to the clip, he said that Jeronimo is a cheat, which he is.

Durante said that the officials were incompetent and that the linesman should have picked up that it was a dive. Telling it like it is. Some people can't handle truth bombs.

I think Durante was pissed with the refs more so for the offside call.

sh10
29-10-2012, 11:55 AM
don't mention offsides...

plague
29-10-2012, 08:53 PM
Sigmund was guilty of a blatant straight red worthy foul.
Geronimo was deserving of a penalty.
ref overall got the decision right.
Dont get caught up in things like details lads.
Big picture and all that.

plague
29-10-2012, 08:54 PM
Also, love Dura.
Awesome bloke.
Not backwards in coming forwards.

stopper2
30-10-2012, 11:55 AM
I find this whole situation hypocritical. Don't get me wrong I hate diving, it is a blight on our game but I also hate when defenders cynically bring down strikers in attacking situations. Is this cheating also? Phoenix players like Sigmund, Muscat and yes even Durante do it on a regular basis year after year. Sometimes the ref sees it and they are carded, quite often they get away with it too mind you. For someone like Durante to turn around now and call a fellow player a "cheat" is a bit rich for me. Yes Jeronimo did over-dramatise the incident with Sigmund but isn't the fact that Sigmund by trying to pull Jeronimo back when he was clearly ahead of him, a form of "cheating" also or at worse against the best interests of the game? Where does one draw the line?
As long as you have players like the 3 Nix players I mentioned and the likes of Terry McFlynn, Jacob Burns and Hutcho constantly using grubby, cynical tactics that go against good sportsmanship. I say we can't just paint solely "divers" as the sinners when it comes to negative blights on our game.
Speaking of that grub Burns....four games in and four yellow cards; if he gets a yellow against us this week he will automatically be out the following week....would have to be a record for the HAL.

leftrightout
30-10-2012, 12:07 PM
I find this whole situation hypocritical. Don't get me wrong I hate diving, it is a blight on our game but I also hate when defenders cynically bring down strikers in attacking situations. Is this cheating also? Phoenix players like Sigmund, Muscat and yes even Durante do it on a regular basis year after year. Sometimes the ref sees it and they are carded, quite often they get away with it too mind you. For someone like Durante to turn around now and call a fellow player a "cheat" is a bit rich for me. Yes Jeronimo did over-dramatise the incident with Sigmund but isn't the fact that Sigmund by trying to pull Jeronimo back when he was clearly ahead of him, a form of "cheating" also or at worse against the best interests of the game? Where does one draw the line?
As long as you have players like the 3 Nix players I mentioned and the likes of Terry McFlynn, Jacob Burns and Hutcho constantly using grubby, cynical tactics that go against good sportsmanship. I say we can't just paint solely "divers" as the sinners when it comes to negative blights on our game.
Speaking of that grub Burns....four games in and four yellow cards; if he gets a yellow against us this week he will automatically be out the following week....would have to be a record for the HAL.


Thats a really good point, obviously everyone hates divers. But i completely agree with you!
Sigmund tried to break the rules to stop an adelaide chance, Jeronimo broke the rules to create a chance. Whats the difference?

One is called "diving" and "cheating" the others are called "professional fouls"... they are all intentionally breaking the rule. i.e cheating!

Also, where was slater with his anti-football call for this one?

Thomas477
30-10-2012, 01:10 PM
Thats a really good point, obviously everyone hates divers. But i completely agree with you!
Sigmund tried to break the rules to stop an adelaide chance, Jeronimo broke the rules to create a chance. Whats the difference?

One is called "diving" and "cheating" the others are called "professional fouls"... they are all intentionally breaking the rule. i.e cheating!

Also, where was slater with his anti-football call for this one?

I don't see anyone saying that Signmund "pushing" Jeronimo wasn't him cheating or a foul, but it was the extravagance of the dive which has angered many. Given the FFA have allowed Jeronimo to get off, expect alot more players going down under minimal contact because even the slightest contact should result in a free kick. We are well on our way to being a non-contact sport.

But what I don't understand is that the FFA is happy to protect the ref of the ADL v NIX game, but they crucified Ben Williams for the F3 Derby. Where is the consistency?

MFKS
30-10-2012, 01:23 PM
I don't see anyone saying that Signmund "pushing" Jeronimo wasn't him cheating or a foul, but it was the extravagance of the dive which has angered many. Given the FFA have allowed Jeronimo to get off, expect alot more players going down under minimal contact because even the slightest contact should result in a free kick. We are well on our way to being a non-contact sport.

But what I don't understand is that the FFA is happy to protect the ref of the ADL v NIX game, but they crucified Ben Williams for the F3 Derby. Where is the consistency?

Well Said

There is a complete lack of consistency going on. Guarantee that when one of our players whinge bitch and moan down the Foxtel Camera about the refereeing the book will be thrown at us. Yet Dura and Hutcho will have gotten off scot free.

stopper2
30-10-2012, 02:28 PM
Quote from Ricky Herbert: "It is very disappointing for both Ben and the club that he will miss the game against Victory and also wrong that the game is being ruined by players who dive and do not get punished for it". That's just the hypocrisy that I'm refering to; the game is getting ruined by "divers" but it's okay for defenders to constantly use their arms to pull players back or use cynical fouls to bring players down who are clear....which the Nix are very good at.
Ricky if you tell your players to play a certain style don't start crying when it backfires on you mate. The irony of this whole incident was that Jeronimo was never going to get to the ball before Paston, if dumbarse Sigmund was a better defender he would've judged it better and just let him go, but no he had to try and impede him illegally and now is paying the consequences...simple as that!

sammydog
30-10-2012, 08:36 PM
I find this whole situation hypocritical. Don't get me wrong I hate diving, it is a blight on our game but I also hate when defenders cynically bring down strikers in attacking situations. Is this cheating also? Phoenix players like Sigmund, Muscat and yes even Durante do it on a regular basis year after year. Sometimes the ref sees it and they are carded, quite often they get away with it too mind you. For someone like Durante to turn around now and call a fellow player a "cheat" is a bit rich for me. Yes Jeronimo did over-dramatise the incident with Sigmund but isn't the fact that Sigmund by trying to pull Jeronimo back when he was clearly ahead of him, a form of "cheating" also or at worse against the best interests of the game? Where does one draw the line?
As long as you have players like the 3 Nix players I mentioned and the likes of Terry McFlynn, Jacob Burns and Hutcho constantly using grubby, cynical tactics that go against good sportsmanship. I say we can't just paint solely "divers" as the sinners when it comes to negative blights on our game.
Speaking of that grub Burns....four games in and four yellow cards; if he gets a yellow against us this week he will automatically be out the following week....would have to be a record for the HAL.

I think the big difference is the consequences are a lot higher for a defender. If a defender makes a cynical foul they run the risk of either coloured card. Sure they deny a goal, but the team ends up with one player.

For a striker diving, you more often than not just see play waved on, but if they swindle the ref a defender is sent off. You don't see strikers sent off due to a ref misjudging a cynical tackle.

Not condoning defenders making professional fouls, but they take a much bigger risk in making the foul.

belchardo
01-12-2012, 09:12 PM
anybody keen to explain how an absolute dog of a referee manages to make it to a-league level?

wait, scrap that. from my time as a ref in the hunter, i understand that referees are promoted on an ability to enforce the rules that have absolutely no impact on a game (such as having your socks pulled up and the keeper having their socks over their trackies).

here's a hint FFA inspectors...maybe you should pay attention when somebody has a nickname of "red card" whomever.

ref the hal indeed.

parksey
01-12-2012, 09:43 PM
australian referee of the year apparently

belchardo
01-12-2012, 09:46 PM
god i hope you are kidding.

boz-monaut
01-12-2012, 10:09 PM
Bosnich's analogy was brilliant

something about having a lovely house that falls apart when you go to the toilet

outstanding

furns
01-12-2012, 10:56 PM
his hairpiece is really the brains behind the operation

hawk
02-12-2012, 10:54 PM
Quite a discussion for a controversy that happens in games week in and out. Nix do the niggle almost as good as jipps.

Boza with the white one liners.