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Luka Boban
24-09-2023, 08:58 AM
ZL1 thread and funny how no is yet to post or discuss the GF results? Newcastle Croatia 4 Crabs 0 for those who aren't aware.

magician
24-09-2023, 09:01 AM
ZL1 thread and funny how no is yet to post or discuss the GF results? Newcastle Croatia 4 Crabs 0 for those who aren't aware.
Who won the minor premiership the most important trophy
Who you guys throwing the cash at next year

The Hacker
24-09-2023, 09:17 AM
ZL1 thread and funny how no is yet to post or discuss the GF results? Newcastle Croatia 4 Crabs 0 for those who aren't aware.

Hats off good result and way to finish the season. Surely you can finish first next year in ZL1 not having to play the Crabs

anfield
24-09-2023, 10:16 AM
Hats off good result and way to finish the season. Surely you can finish first next year in ZL1 not having to play the Crabs

Well done to Croatia on yesterday's result, Impressive performance.

Well done to the crabs on a great year. Are the crabs moving into ZPL next year?

Croatia won't have it all there own way next year. Southern United will take some stopping themselves.

fozphantom
24-09-2023, 10:30 AM
ZL1 thread and funny how no is yet to post or discuss the GF results? Newcastle Croatia 4 Crabs 0 for those who aren't aware.

yes, the reporting of scores leaves a bit to be desired.
I'm away with family on school holidays and was checking for updates regularly.
nothing across the board - and I mean that with tongue in cheek - Board/.Assoc still hasn't posted scores for 5 grades of GF's on mygameday at the time of writing.
I believe it's up to them? not the 'home team' as is usually is?? disc-grace!

thanks to retro, lofty and anfield for posting something for zl2 at least.
Hoping to see some posts today for the 'Premier' comp in newy :grin:
OR - can anyone post a tip on who's posting scores elsewhere?

Halligooner
24-09-2023, 11:38 AM
Well done to Croatia on yesterday's result, Impressive performance.

Well done to the crabs on a great year. Are the crabs moving into ZPL next year?

Croatia won't have it all there own way next year. Southern United will take some stopping themselves.

Crabs won't be in ZPL. Not possible unfortunately. More on this in the coming months.

Croatia may find themselves in ZPL without winning a zone league premiership.

ranger
24-09-2023, 11:52 AM
I guess it's more a reflection on the zl1 forum than on anything personal to Croatia.

If Croatia hadn't been in the forum this year I think you'd find there's a total of about 20 posts.

Congrats on all grandfinal winners yesterday putting the games to bed but for the neutral I'd been expecting and hoping for alot closer games.

If your looking for scores the games yesterday were on bar TV so if on hols you could watch them in real time?

Looking forward to the road trip to Southern next season. I'm sure they'll have excellent home form if any teams take a bus up the night before 🍻

fozphantom
24-09-2023, 12:40 PM
I guess it's more a reflection on the zl1 forum than on anything personal to Croatia.

If Croatia hadn't been in the forum this year I think you'd find there's a total of about 20 posts.

Congrats on all grandfinal winners yesterday putting the games to bed but for the neutral I'd been expecting and hoping for alot closer games.

If your looking for scores the games yesterday were on bar TV so if on hols you could watch them in real time?

Looking forward to the road trip to Southern next season. I'm sure they'll have excellent home form if any teams take a bus up the night before 🍻

Cheers ranger
3rd grade 1 - 0 to Suns

Looks like a good setup there at Myers
I haven't been past in a while

riverboy
24-09-2023, 02:42 PM
Crabs won't be in ZPL. Not possible unfortunately. More on this in the coming months.

Croatia may find themselves in ZPL without winning a zone league premiership.

Please explain?

Rumours are they were going to form a new club, FC Novocastria?

Opens the door up for Croatia. Unless they go back to Cardiff , who struggled badly this year.

Halligooner
24-09-2023, 05:47 PM
Please explain?

Rumours are they were going to form a new club, FC Novocastria?

Opens the door up for Croatia. Unless they go back to Cardiff , who struggled badly this year.

I can?t and won?t speak on the finer details of it all, as nothing is finalised.

What is factual? Crabs (FC Novocastria/HA ZL1) won?t be playing in ZPL in 2024. Us, Hamilton Azzurri ZPL, happily remaining in ZPL in 2024. Therefore, not possible. No swap, etc.

However, what it looks like beyond that is still in construction, whether it?s a new entity or under a different banner. I can?t speak on that as I?m not involved directly with them.

With this in mind, a straight inclusion into ZPL won?t be possible also, as you can expect.

MurderOnZidanesFloor
24-09-2023, 08:06 PM
After yesterdays domination, the proof is in the pudding that the thousands Croatia has spent is paying dividends.

No one, including myself, would like to admit it, but Croatia would threaten the top echelon of ZPL outfits. Impressive performance.

Taffy
25-09-2023, 09:34 AM
Who won the minor premiership the most important trophy
Who you guys throwing the cash at next year

How is winning something that you've termed as minor the most important trophy.

Taffy
25-09-2023, 09:36 AM
ZL1 thread and funny how no is yet to post or discuss the GF results? Newcastle Croatia 4 Crabs 0 for those who aren't aware.

Yes they all jump on when Croatia lose and how they can't beat a team. But when Croatia are crowned ZL1 champions they all sulk back under their rocks.

Tall poppy syndrome is alive and well in Zone League. Up Croatia.

Bulldogs 1962
25-09-2023, 11:26 AM
How is winning something that you've termed as minor the most important trophy.

He just used the wrong terminology, think you'll find winning the comp gets the title as premiers. And winning the grand final gets you that exact title, " grand final winners". No minor and major now. And premiers is always a better achievement

magician
25-09-2023, 11:35 AM
How is winning something that you've termed as minor the most important trophy.
Funny how every football league around the world is just the home and away season
Dopey

Taffy
25-09-2023, 11:37 AM
Funny how every football league around the world is just the home and away season
Dopey

Yet this isn't one of those leagues (and not all around the world is just home and away) the person I responded to called it minor

Taffy
25-09-2023, 11:38 AM
He just used the wrong terminology, think you'll find winning the comp gets the title as premiers. And winning the grand final gets you that exact title, " grand final winners". No minor and major now. And premiers is always a better achievement

I think you'll find that winning the grand final gets you the title "Champions" but what ever helps you guys cope with Croatia winning something.

Luka Boban
25-09-2023, 01:44 PM
Ha ha well in Taffy.
Wouldn't matter if it was around the other way if Croatia had won the "Minor" Premiership these clowns would then be saying that the winning the GF is the one that matters here in Australia.
Who cares...Minor or Major, Premiers or Champions, we have two titles in our two seasons back as a club plus a Reserve grade title. Like we said months ago; we will do our talking on the pitch where it matters.

magician
25-09-2023, 05:22 PM
Ha ha well in Taffy.
Wouldn't matter if it was around the other way if Croatia had won the "Minor" Premiership these clowns would then be saying that the winning the GF is the one that matters here in Australia.
Who cares...Minor or Major, Premiers or Champions, we have two titles in our two seasons back as a club plus a Reserve grade title. Like we said months ago; we will do our talking on the pitch where it matters.

1 win and 3 losses to them this year but yeah you?re the better team 🤦🏼*♂️

Taffy
25-09-2023, 05:37 PM
We won the game that matters

Bulldogs 1962
25-09-2023, 07:34 PM
I think you'll find that winning the grand final gets you the title "Champions" but what ever helps you guys cope with Croatia winning something.

To be honest couldn't be bothered digging mine out of the kids dress up box to get the exact terminology used, but knew it wasn't major/minor.

Just thought I'd point it out, I'm to old and to fat these days to be worrying about who's won what in ZL1. Just as long as you're happy with being a champion, that's all that matters. Because I guarantee no one really gives a shit who won it about 24hrs after it finished.

Luka Boban
25-09-2023, 08:46 PM
1 win and 3 losses to them this year but yeah you?re the better team ����*♂️
LOL who has mentioned anything about being the "better team"?
Azzurri beat us convincingly very early in the season but the 2nd round match and the semi final a couple weeks back were tight games where we dominated possession but just didn't put away our chances. We always thought that at full strength and if we put away our chances that we can beat them and we proved that on Grand Final day. Football can be a funny game as Norths were probably a better football playing team than Azzurri but we managed to beat them 4 out of 4 times this year.

Taffy
26-09-2023, 09:06 AM
Because I guarantee no one really gives a shit who won it about 24hrs after it finished.

They didn't give a shit so much they jumped on to tell us why it didn't matter and why they didn't give a shit. Such as below still telling us how much they don't care

Killa
26-09-2023, 09:22 AM
I see those at Croatia are still very insecure about their club that they require members of a public forum to try and bloke smoke up their own ass. "Please like us!!!!! Why haven't anybody told us what the grand final score was!!!" I would say that most people had better things to do I guess? Maybe celebrating their own respective seasons or just not living on this forum?

Congrats on the win, well deserved on the day. The two benchmark teams made the grand final and it was NC who showed their strength with a comfortable 4-0 win.

Don't think the Crabs should have any shame in their season. Premiers in 2 grades, Grand Finals in 2 grades and a Grand Final win for their Reserve Grade team. Club Champions for a bunch of blokes who refuse to train and an average age of their squad being about 24-25 years old. Fairly impressive when you consider they haven't had to fork out up to 50k on players to do it as well. Think I saw a few of them still partying yesterday along Beaumont Street so don't think they're overly concerned.

Luka Boban
27-09-2023, 10:22 AM
I see those at Croatia are still very insecure about their club that they require members of a public forum to try and bloke smoke up their own ass. "Please like us!!!!! Why haven't anybody told us what the grand final score was!!!" I would say that most people had better things to do I guess? Maybe celebrating their own respective seasons or just not living on this forum?

Congrats on the win, well deserved on the day. The two benchmark teams made the grand final and it was NC who showed their strength with a comfortable 4-0 win.

Don't think the Crabs should have any shame in their season. Premiers in 2 grades, Grand Finals in 2 grades and a Grand Final win for their Reserve Grade team. Club Champions for a bunch of blokes who refuse to train and an average age of their squad being about 24-25 years old. Fairly impressive when you consider they haven't had to fork out up to 50k on players to do it as well. Think I saw a few of them still partying yesterday along Beaumont Street so don't think they're overly concerned.
Please spare the BS mate. We all know that if Croatia had lost the GF that a few on here would've posted the result up within hours.
We really couldn't give a flying toss if you or anyone likes us or not (massive LOL). The fact that we seem to have put some noses out of joint is actually quite funny and gives us that extra little bit of motivation to aspire to be the best we can.
As for the "Azzurri refuse to train" that's just a myth. Yeah they don't train twice a week but they do train.

The Hacker
27-09-2023, 11:26 AM
Please spare the BS mate. We all know that if Croatia had lost the GF that a few on here would've posted the result up within hours.
We really couldn't give a flying toss if you or anyone likes us or not (massive LOL). The fact that we seem to have put some noses out of joint is actually quite funny and gives us that extra little bit of motivation to aspire to be the best we can.
As for the "Azzurri refuse to train" that's just a myth. Yeah they don't train twice a week but they do train.

I think Croatia rub people the wrong way due to the fact the feel entitled to be promoted each year even after finishing 2nd just because they splash some cash and attract a few players. If there was some humility people may be a bit more on board. The fact people including the coach sprouts before the season starts you will be in ZPL next year and you are yet to finish first across a season makes you seem entitled. Other teams have had to win comps to get promoted. But as a club that doesn?t apply to Croatia in your heads cause you can pay for it. Hope that clears up why people think you are flogs and don?t like the club.

Enjoy the off season hope the dietitian for a 4th division club recommends you some humble pie for pre season next year

Frank Jonathan Mir II
27-09-2023, 11:33 AM
Please spare the BS mate. We all know that if Croatia had lost the GF that a few on here would've posted the result up within hours.
We really couldn't give a flying toss if you or anyone likes us or not (massive LOL). The fact that we seem to have put some noses out of joint is actually quite funny and gives us that extra little bit of motivation to aspire to be the best we can.
As for the "Azzurri refuse to train" that's just a myth. Yeah they don't train twice a week but they do train.

Umm no they don?t train actually Boban. They have never trained, and who are you to say they do. Do you have spies? No surprise you have come come out of your hibernation

Killa
27-09-2023, 01:01 PM
We really couldn't give a flying toss if you or anyone likes us or not (massive LOL)..
Yeah, sure thing Luke.....I guess that's why you were on this forum immediately after the game seeking vindication and not celebrating the win with the supporters and squad?

And as for training, where would they train? Smith Park isn't adequate enough is it?

Halligooner
27-09-2023, 01:12 PM
Please spare the BS mate. We all know that if Croatia had lost the GF that a few on here would've posted the result up within hours.
We really couldn't give a flying toss if you or anyone likes us or not (massive LOL). The fact that we seem to have put some noses out of joint is actually quite funny and gives us that extra little bit of motivation to aspire to be the best we can.
As for the "Azzurri refuse to train" that's just a myth. Yeah they don't train twice a week but they do train.

Can confirm they do not train. Maybe football 5s at Speers Point for a few and the Beauford meat raffles on a Friday night.

straightred88
27-09-2023, 01:44 PM
Some of you need to go easy on the little blue pills, your excitement to bag Croatia is embarrassing.

Back to football - congrats to all teams who made the finals.

Azzurri most consistent across all 3 grades this year and their position showed it.

Few teams have some work to do if they want to remain in zone 1 for 2024.

Luka Boban
27-09-2023, 02:07 PM
Yeah, sure thing Luke.....I guess that's why you were on this forum immediately after the game seeking vindication and not celebrating the win with the supporters and squad?

And as for training, where would they train? Smith Park isn't adequate enough is it?
So posting on Sunday morning is "immediately after the game" ha ha. You just keep spinning BS.
BTW one of the Azzurri Dad's told me they do train sometimes when they get decent numbers available.
Why would he lie LOL.
See ya around, had enough of this petty rubbish engaging with losers.

Taffy
10-11-2023, 09:12 AM
Southern United confirming on their socials they are in League 1 next year (or rather in League 2 under the new structure)

Zonal Marking
10-11-2023, 12:07 PM
Southern United confirming on their socials they are in League 1 next year (or rather in League 2 under the new structure)

Calling it early. Assuming that the Crabs have dropped a division to play under a new identity then the promotion race will be between this lot and Croatia. Think it will go right to the wire as well.

Taffy
10-11-2023, 02:02 PM
Or Mayfield being relegated?

But yes I expect it to go right to the wire, Southern United wanted to go straight into NL1 this season and it would've happened had they had a strong enough squad to cover reserves. Be interesting to see if they can then fill thirds now in League 2.

Alton
11-11-2023, 08:39 AM
Morrisset were all the go a while back, hope United don?t make the same mistakes

Sideline
11-11-2023, 05:47 PM
Calling it early. Assuming that the Crabs have dropped a division to play under a new identity then the promotion race will be between this lot and Croatia. Think it will go right to the wire as well.

Having watched both of these sides on grandfinal day, hamilton and croatia were both far better teams than united they will need to recruit well to be a real threat

anfield
12-11-2023, 09:41 AM
Having watched both of these sides on grandfinal day, hamilton and croatia were both far better teams than united they will need to recruit well to be a real threat

Big call to say 'far better' teams. Southern did go undefeated for 20 games this year. I'd say they will only perform better against higher quality teams. If they stick together they will be in what was ZPL within 2 attempts I reckon.

Imyourhero
12-11-2023, 10:39 AM
So what's the latest news on the restructure off all the competitions?

Aegon
13-11-2023, 11:59 AM
Can anyone confirm the Zone Leagues structure and league format for 2024 before I close this thread and start the 2024 ones?

Killa
13-11-2023, 02:42 PM
Can anyone confirm the Zone Leagues structure and league format for 2024 before I close this thread and start the 2024 ones?

Don't think anybody knows as of yet tbh. Did hear that the Crabs will not be part of Azzurri next season and will become their own club though so make of that what you will

straightred88
17-11-2023, 01:51 PM
Don't think anybody knows as of yet tbh. Did hear that the Crabs will not be part of Azzurri next season and will become their own club though so make of that what you will

Correct - moving out Belmont/ Mt Hutton way

Zonal Marking
17-11-2023, 03:54 PM
Correct - moving out Belmont/ Mt Hutton way

What ground are you going to be based at?

straightred88
17-11-2023, 04:43 PM
What ground are you going to be based at?

Maybe someone from Azzurri can confirm but I was told Holford at Mt Hutton.

northern_swan
18-11-2023, 02:47 PM
Maybe someone from Azzurri can confirm but I was told Holford at Mt Hutton.

Hope they can keep the vandals off it. Valo were using Holford for training last season until it got torn apart by kids on e scooters after a downpour. Ruined it for most of the season

Jim
18-11-2023, 08:51 PM
Hope they can keep the vandals off it. Valo were using Holford for training last season until it got torn apart by kids on e scooters after a downpour. Ruined it for most of the season

Sadly this will occur at many grounds in future. get the cctv up

straightred88
18-11-2023, 11:29 PM
Sadly this will occur at many grounds in future. get the cctv up

We all know councils are a joke.

Taffy
20-11-2023, 09:17 AM
Sadly this will occur at many grounds in future. get the cctv up

Get fences up so that all grounds can be locked up when it is too wet.

straightred88
21-11-2023, 03:53 PM
With Azzurri zone 1 now starting a brand new club - Croudace Bay United

Let?s see if NF make them start in zone 3 as per their own rules.

AcK0
21-11-2023, 07:13 PM
With Azzurri zone 1 now starting a brand new club - Croudace Bay United

Let?s see if NF make them start in zone 3 as per their own rules.

Might as well start them in ZL1. Won the comp clearly and is broadly the same entity of players.

northern_swan
21-11-2023, 07:51 PM
With Azzurri zone 1 now starting a brand new club - Croudace Bay United

Let?s see if NF make them start in zone 3 as per their own rules.

Probably a good thing they called themselves the Croudace Bay Crabs as opposed to the Gateshead Gobblers I guess :gent:

riverboy
22-11-2023, 01:13 AM
With Azzurri zone 1 now starting a brand new club - Croudace Bay United

Let?s see if NF make them start in zone 3 as per their own rules.

Good luck to the guys, gutsy decision going out on their own. Going to be extremely difficult to sustain a Zone League team without the support and experience of an established club.

I will give them something, they now have the worse name in Newcastle Football. Is Croudace Bay even a suburb? I thought it was just a Bay with a park known for being a dog park.

They should be in ZPL (zl1,last year) , surely?They finished first in the division below. Ridiculous if not the case. If not them , who??

Taffy
22-11-2023, 11:01 AM
Is Croudace Bay even a suburb?

Yes it is, it's in-between Elebana and Valentine. Are they based in Croudace Bay though, someone said they would be playing out of Mount Hutton.

Aegon
23-11-2023, 10:45 AM
Yes it is, it's in-between Elebana and Valentine. Are they based in Croudace Bay though, someone said they would be playing out of Mount Hutton.

It's a tiny suburb. 1/2 km2 with a population of around 600ish. I'm pretty sure everyone who lives there just say they are from Valentine.

Taffy
23-11-2023, 01:36 PM
Probably, I was just answering his question.

riverboy
23-11-2023, 02:51 PM
It's a tiny suburb. 1/2 km2 with a population of around 600ish. I'm pretty sure everyone who lives there just say they are from Valentine.

They could have played at nearby Windale. Call themselves Windaliens

Zonal Marking
23-11-2023, 06:02 PM
So why are the Crabs affiliating under the suburb of Croudace Bay when it looks like they will be based at either Mt Hutton or Belmont?

ForeverRed
23-11-2023, 07:55 PM
So why are the Crabs affiliating under the suburb of Croudace Bay when it looks like they will be based at either Mt Hutton or Belmont?
Probably the same reason Newcastle Olympic play in Hamilton South, Belmont Swansea play in blacksmiths, Charlestown Azzurri play in Whitebridge, what?s your point

Zonal Marking
23-11-2023, 08:04 PM
Probably the same reason Newcastle Olympic play in Hamilton South, Belmont Swansea play in blacksmiths, Charlestown Azzurri play in Whitebridge, what?s your point

Newcastle Olympic formerly known as ?Hamilton Olympic? Azzurri located at Whitebridge for many years before they adopted the name Charlestown. Blacksmiths a suburb sandwiched between Belmont & Swansea (Belswans). So theres historical and geographical connections with every club you?ve named FR but what is a Mt Hutton/Belmont team got to do with Croudace Bay?

ForeverRed
23-11-2023, 08:48 PM
Newcastle Olympic formerly known as ?Hamilton Olympic? Azzurri located at Whitebridge for many years before they adopted the name Charlestown. Blacksmiths a suburb sandwiched between Belmont & Swansea (Belswans). So theres historical and geographical connections with every club you?ve named FR but what is a Mt Hutton/Belmont team got to do with Croudace Bay?
Just like you said, sandwiched 🤦*♂️

Bremsstrahlung
23-11-2023, 09:01 PM
Was Holford Oval the old Rugby field?

Zonal Marking
23-11-2023, 09:09 PM
Just like you said, sandwiched 🤦*♂️


Think you need to take some Lake Macquarie geographical lessons if you think Croudace Bay is sandwiched between Mt Hutton & Belmont. Valentine & Eleebana yes but not sure what kind of weird map you?ve been looking at :wacko:

ForeverRed
23-11-2023, 09:24 PM
Think you need to take some Lake Macquarie geographical lessons if you think Croudace Bay is sandwiched between Mt Hutton & Belmont. Valentine & Eleebana yes but not sure what kind of weird map you?ve been looking at :wacko:
🤦*♂️🤷*♂️

Zonal Marking
23-11-2023, 11:26 PM
🤦*♂️🤷*♂️

So since FR obviously has no idea if anyone does know why the Crabs chose to associate themselves with the suburb of Croudace Bay please feel free to explain why. Just curious why somewhere closer to their base like Mt Hutton, Windale, Tingira Heights, Floraville or Belmont North was not considered in the name.

Zonal Marking
23-11-2023, 11:27 PM
Was Holford Oval the old Rugby field?

Yes correct. It is located behind Mt Hutton primary school. I believe Southern Beaches used to play there.

Bremsstrahlung
24-11-2023, 07:37 AM
So since FR obviously has no idea if anyone does know why the Crabs chose to associate themselves with the suburb of Croudace Bay please feel free to explain why. Just curious why somewhere closer to their base like Mt Hutton, Windale, Tingira Heights, Floraville or Belmont North was not considered in the name.

Ever seen any crabs at those locations?

(The ocean dwelling type…probably plenty of the other kind)





Note: I have NFI

Macca
24-11-2023, 08:43 AM
Alliterative purposes

Zonal Marking
24-11-2023, 09:17 AM
Ever seen any crabs at those locations?

(The ocean dwelling type?probably plenty of the other kind)





Note: I have NFI

I have seen them at Teralba if we are going to throw in random lakeside suburbs that are nowhere near where the team is playing I dont see why Teralba should not get a shout out?

Jim
30-11-2023, 07:21 PM
I have seen them at Teralba if we are going to throw in random lakeside suburbs that are nowhere near where the team is playing I dont see why Teralba should not get a shout out?

Would you also suggest that Hamilton Azzurri should be Hexham Azzurri?

Avocadomexican
30-11-2023, 07:45 PM
Would you also suggest that Hamilton Azzurri should be Hexham Azzurri?

Hexham Hedgehogs would be better.

Taffy
01-12-2023, 09:32 AM
Hexham Hedgehogs would be better.

Hexham Mosquitos.

Zonal Marking
01-12-2023, 03:33 PM
Would you also suggest that Hamilton Azzurri should be Hexham Azzurri?

No Hamilton Azzurri surprisingly used to be based in Hamilton therefore it makes sense why they are named what they are even if for the time being they have to take the club on the road. Why is a new Mt Hutton/Belmont club named after a suburb that as far as i have seen that they have no connection to?

straightred88
01-12-2023, 03:54 PM
No Hamilton Azzurri surprisingly used to be based in Hamilton therefore it makes sense why they are named what they are even if for the time being they have to take the club on the road. Why is a new Mt Hutton/Belmont club named after a suburb that as far as i have seen that they have no connection to?

And what looks to be a rip off of Inter Miami logo and are going with black and pink colours. Maybe they all are Messi fans lol

Taffy
01-12-2023, 04:17 PM
No Hamilton Azzurri surprisingly used to be based in Hamilton therefore it makes sense why they are named what they are even if for the time being they have to take the club on the road. Why is a new Mt Hutton/Belmont club named after a suburb that as far as i have seen that they have no connection to?

#upgradesmithpark

pv4
05-12-2023, 11:42 AM
Baseketball predicted all of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivzrbp_WR8w

The Postman
06-12-2023, 10:18 PM
Baseketball predicted all of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivzrbp_WR8w

They also predicted how promotion and relegation will work.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke84GdIX4eo