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prawnhead
07-12-2013, 04:45 PM
The Emerging Jets U/16 side has just finished competing in the NTC Challenge in Canberra. This is a competition where NNSW elite boys competed against the best players from around Australia for consideration to become future AIS and Joeys players.
 I've just had a look at the results and the boys have not faired too well against other boys from their own age group from other Federations. They won one game in the competition (this was against the side that ran last) and finished I think second last on the ladder. Surely questions need to be asked of David Smith and his coaching staff here. For mine this is simply not good enough. And don't give me the development argument in this situation - these boys were competing against boys their own age from other Federations. Does David Eland still answer questions on this forum as the performance of our elite boys in this tournament was simply not good enough.

joel31
07-12-2013, 06:48 PM
Maybe try posting in this section
http://www.newcastlefootball.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?21-Ask-the-NNSWFF

MFKS
07-12-2013, 08:26 PM
The Emerging Jets U/16 side has just finished competing in the NTC Challenge in Canberra. This is a competition where NNSW elite boys competed against the best players from around Australia for consideration to become future AIS and Joeys players.
 I've just had a look at the results and the boys have not faired too well against other boys from their own age group from other Federations. They won one game in the competition (this was against the side that ran last) and finished I think second last on the ladder. Surely questions need to be asked of David Smith and his coaching staff here. For mine this is simply not good enough. And don't give me the development argument in this situation - these boys were competing against boys their own age from other Federations. Does David Eland still answer questions on this forum as the performance of our elite boys in this tournament was simply not good enough.


Poor Zico will be spitting shards of glass at this

How dare someone else question the local game to account for their failings

prawnhead
07-12-2013, 09:07 PM
Maybe try posting in this section
http://www.newcastlefootball.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?21-Ask-the-NNSWFF

Youth development at the Elite level in NNSW at the moment is a huge issue that warrants discussion in the Local Football section of this forum, hence my post. The performance in this tournament clearly demonstrates this.

In any case, I'm sure questions are being asked within NNSW HQ as we speak.

prawnhead
07-12-2013, 09:52 PM
Poor Zico will be spitting shards of glass at this

How dare someone else question the local game to account for their failings

I think you have missed my point. The banter between you and Zico appears to be strictly at a local Club level.

My point was aimed at the Elite system of player development within NNSW Football at present. The majority (not all) of all the boys who competed this week have been part of the Elite system within the NNSW program for some time. This week at the elite level of youth football in Australia we were embarrassingly exposed.

Not good enough mate.

seldom
08-12-2013, 12:51 AM
so your problem is with the FFA curriculum or the coaches in place?..or both...and what's your solution ?

prawnhead
08-12-2013, 08:54 AM
so your problem is with the FFA curriculum or the coaches in place?..or both...and what's your solution ?

Not the FFA curriculum in this situation as I’m assuming all Federations are teaching the same thing. The next international tournament for these kids will show how the curriculum is fairing.

The buck needs to stop with Dave Smith here and questions need to be asked of him. Based on the this performance and the performance last year at the U/15 National Championships for boys, maybe it’s time for a change at the Technical Director level.

EH9
08-12-2013, 10:01 AM
Not the FFA curriculum in this situation as I’m assuming all Federations are teaching the same thing. The next international tournament for these kids will show how the curriculum is fairing.

The buck needs to stop with Dave Smith here and questions need to be asked of him. Based on the this performance and the performance last year at the U/15 National Championships for boys, maybe it’s time for a change at the Technical Director level.

I'm not disagreeing with anything that you say here, however, I have a few questions that always puzzle me. Are we being realistic to expect our teams to be at the top end of these type of competitions when our population is the same size as Tasmania and ACT? Should we be measuring our success by how we compare to these 2 and to the NT? The rest of the states have a larger pool to chose their players from and by pure maths should outperform our squads.

The telling table for me was the one showing that we don't even perform well based on the curriculum! Also I found it interesting that NSW, who won the points table, were not in the top 2 of implementation of the curriculum!

Imyourhero
08-12-2013, 11:06 AM
If you are going to use a population theory then apparently china, russia, india should be the worlds best sporting countries due to their insane populations.

boz-monaut
08-12-2013, 11:23 AM
I'm of the opinion that this is an important topic and that we should have a good discussion about this so I won't be tolerating any personal attacks or crap in this thread

prawnhead makes a few good points - the main one being in my mind that we should not be satisfied with finishing in the lower part of the ladder

NNSW is the third largest federation in terms of player numbers, larger than Qld, SA, ACT and WA even those states have larger populations - we should be producing corresponding proportions of elite players and we haven't for years

EH9
08-12-2013, 11:27 AM
If you are going to use a population theory then apparently china, russia, india should be the worlds best sporting countries due to their insane populations.

Thats fair enough, those countries are quite handy in a number of sports though, I will assume your answer to my question is no then.

Beast
08-12-2013, 09:15 PM
Nnsw have a KPI to measure their performance, so are they meeting this. If not Mr Smith needs to be held accountable.

MFKS
08-12-2013, 09:44 PM
I think you have missed my point. The banter between you and Zico appears to be strictly at a local Club level.

My point was aimed at the Elite system of player development within NNSW Football at present. The majority (not all) of all the boys who competed this week have been part of the Elite system within the NNSW program for some time. This week at the elite level of youth football in Australia we were embarrassingly exposed.

Not good enough mate.

I haven't missed your point.

I am adamant that questions need to be asked and people need to be held accountable for the failings at NNSW point blank. Name me Socceroos that are Hunter products in the last 25 years and the reality is we are not pulling our weight at this level. Our representation at National League level isn't enough and should have been higher also. Many things have been ****ed for a while yet many are more interested protecting their own patch and being quite insular about this

I applaud your stance for speaking up on this subject. Continue to do so

Others need to also open their eyes and open their mouths on similar subjects and not continue to live in denial with their heads in the sand with what is really poor outcomes for our region when we can be achieving so much more

ForeverRed
08-12-2013, 10:34 PM
The jets had 5 local lads all on the pitch together today, kantarovski , hoole, pepper, Reagan and Galloway, with Kennedy on the bench, quite a strong representation I would of thought

MFKS
08-12-2013, 10:38 PM
The jets had 5 local lads all on the pitch together today, kantarovski , hoole, pepper, Reagan and Galloway, with Kennedy on the bench, quite a strong representation I would of thought

Having 5 lads in the squad isn't the issue. We always have local representation it is about the quality of it

It is about having 5>> or more lads that are on the pitch that are first choice and indisputably so and that all other clubs in the land would bite their hands off to have. Can't say the other HAL clubs would be doing that for these blokes

ForeverRed
09-12-2013, 12:50 PM
Other then imports and marquee players not many clubs have Australian born players being chased by other clubs, they can only do what there doing by playing in the highest competition in this country, well done to the local boys I say

MFKS
09-12-2013, 03:29 PM
Just playing in the highest level of competition in this country shouldn't be the time to be offering praise and feeling pride cause "some Newy boy done good".

How about starring in this competition, playing for the NT, moving to stronger league overseas and playing in the big stadiums in the big competitions we see on TV from Europe and moving onto play with/against the best players around the globe.

These are things our local kids should actually be aspiring to. Guess what they are also achievable if people pull their heads out of the sand and acknowledge we have issues

Just making into the Jets XI shouldn't be the goal and the time to start congratulating everyone with pats on the back

Local Rules
09-12-2013, 04:14 PM
Nnsw have a KPI to measure their performance, so are they meeting this. If not Mr Smith needs to be held accountable.

http://issuu.com/northernnswfootball/docs/2012_nnswf_operational_plan_feb16/7?e=0

The attached is the plan from the NNSWFF website that states what the aims of the Federation are. It shows their High Performance area as having measurable goals for 2014. It would be interesting to see if any of these KPI's are met. If they have not been met by now I would assume that the next plan of action would be to sit down and assess if the people who are critical to achieving the goals are capable of fulfilling the task. At this point I think the TD position of NNSWFF needs closer scrutiny because our results in the younger ages (4th and 5th in a group of 6 or 7 teams) up to the NTC (7th out of 8 teams)have been short of expectation.

I would suggest that the goals should have a matrix attached to them to track progress on an annual basis and then have justification why they have not been met. If there is a consistent error or reason that comes up then this should be addressed before the problem snowballs and we become the Northern Territory.

I can appreciate that there are a number of NNSW products running around in the HAL and NYL but if we are not having players progress further then this, maybe the selection process and the talent identification needs to be looked at as well as the coaching and mentoring these players get. We are in a rich area for players and are supposed to have a working co-operation with the HAL club on our own doorstep. It is always hard to admit you got something wrong (see dictionary under GVE) but unless someone takes a decisive step towards making the programs work then I fear we will be on the path to mediocrity.

This may sound old fashioned and outdated but I still believe the ideal situation is to have people appointed to spot talent that could slip through the cracks because of lack of attention. Target your 10 and 11 year olds but just because they are in the squad at that age does not mean that they should be there forever. Players will always develop at different speeds and just because a player is smaller or not as skilled today doesn't mean he won't develop into a stronger player in the future. It is these kids that the current TD is not catching. His job should be for all players in NNSW not just his elite program.

ForeverRed
09-12-2013, 05:42 PM
Just playing in the highest level of competition in this country shouldn't be the time to be offering praise and feeling pride cause "some Newy boy done good".

How about starring in this competition, playing for the NT, moving to stronger league overseas and playing in the big stadiums in the big competitions we see on TV from Europe and moving onto play with/against the best players around the globe.

These are things our local kids should actually be aspiring to. Guess what they are also achievable if people pull their heads out of the sand and acknowledge we have issues

Just making into the Jets XI shouldn't be the goal and the time to start congratulating everyone with pats on the back
the issue is that they are there and we should support as much as possible, its all find and dandy to have local players in the national team or playing a high standard over seas but until that day arrives the best we can do is support what we have, I also believe the wrong people are coaching in the emerging jets programe, we need to spend up and bring in a couple of high profile coaches where local coaches can learn from, having David Smith hand you a certificate doesn't mean you can coach, I can ride horses but I'm no cowboy

prawnhead
09-12-2013, 11:24 PM
I'm of the opinion that this is an important topic and that we should have a good discussion about this so I won't be tolerating any personal attacks or crap in this thread

prawnhead makes a few good points - the main one being in my mind that we should not be satisfied with finishing in the lower part of the ladder

NNSW is the third largest federation in terms of player numbers, larger than Qld, SA, ACT and WA even those states have larger populations - we should be producing corresponding proportions of elite players and we haven't for years

Totally agree with your comments Boz. But in IMO it’s much more than just an important topic within NNSW Football at the moment. Perhaps for mine (long term) it is the biggest.

ForeverRed is right when he says the current crop of local boys in the side at the moment deserve all our support. They are doing super and we all should support them unwaveringly.

But where are our next Reagans, Hooles, Kantas etc over the next 2 to 5 years going to come from. Based on our performance at the NTC Challenge it doesn’t appear that they will come from within and for mine this is not acceptable.

ForveverRed - your comments on coaching certificates are spot on.

terryk
10-12-2013, 08:47 AM
Why the anti Dave Smith posts? Surely he is just implementing the Boards/CEOs policies?

curious_fan
11-12-2013, 03:53 PM
I am not anti DS, my question/doubt is should such roles be filled by the same person for such extended periods?

Would you not want both a quality TD but also new ideas, new techniques, new initiatives being bought into such a role. Granted here in Aus it is a double edged sword with such few roles if long term employment could not be guaranteed why would any one ever take them on.

I have not had a child directly under any elite system which DS is responsible for so I wont comment on their effectiveness but I have seen him on weekends over previous seasons at grounds like Eddon, Cessnock etc watching the Zone Aged squads but it seemed more a PR exercise (talking with people, parents etc) than an in depth interest in the games/players/coaches that were in progress.

MFKS
11-12-2013, 07:28 PM
As for someone staying in the role for lengthy time.

Yes I agree it is important that no one stays in the position forever but it is also imperative not to turf someone out who may be good at what they are doing just cause they have been there for x amount of time. The position should ALWAYS be reviewed periodically and given to the best possible candidate whether that be the incumbent or new blood

Why Blue
18-12-2013, 11:36 AM
my first post, but wanted to comment, so here goes

Have had a little to do with EJ/NNSWF program over the last few years. Personally I believe D Smith does a reasonable job, but is only one person. It is his understudies that let the program down. As previously posted just because you have a certificate does not necessarily make you a coach. The EJ program is supposed to be the pinnacle of youth development in this local area, but until better coaching is available with in the program it cannot claim to be the best.

Also facilities, I know the new facility at Speers Point will go along way to rectifying this BUT for now the facilities are a joke. No home ground, no set training facility, not good enough.

And one last thing, the selection process needs to be evaluated, kids who were developed early by their parents etc and were exceptional at 8 years of age do not always stay that way. Other kids develop and may actually be better, but reality is once in program very few kids get dropped. The common belief is that once in the program kids will develop at a rate exceeding kids outside of the program, but they don't really look outside the program to know.

The reality is that now with the NPL starting at U/13 clubs are developing programs that will pick up a 2nd phase of kids. Some of these clubs will have strong programs in place and will become a viable alternative to EJ and other programs. Some of these kids, who are probably good enough to be in EJ or other programs may develop now with good coaching, structure and a pathway that could lead them to NBN or beyond.

hawk
18-12-2013, 12:33 PM
The reality is that now with the NPL starting at U/13 clubs are developing programs that will pick up a 2nd phase of kids. Some of these clubs will have strong programs in place and will become a viable alternative to EJ and other programs. Some of these kids, who are probably good enough to be in EJ or other programs may develop now with good coaching, structure and a pathway that could lead them to NBN or beyond.

Most important point. The top 20 at 13 will not be the top 20 at 18. Things change, injuries, dedication, dads influence is reduced and so on. The more places that juniors can get top coaching outside of the golden pack is the key for me.

russjaybee
18-12-2013, 12:45 PM
If you are going to use a population theory then apparently china, russia, india should be the worlds best sporting countries due to their insane populations.

This is silly, population can be a factor if all other elements are equal. If we believe our facilities and coaches are up to scratch in comparison to other states then yes population could definitely be a factor.

Citing China / Russia / India vs Spain / Brazil / Germany etc is not the same comparison as NNSW vs other local federations, cop out.

( Playing devils advocate here, I don't necessarily think our coaching / facilities / opportunities for youth elite is equal to other federations )

MFKS
16-01-2014, 10:09 AM
PRESIDENT Steve Cucumanovski defended the decision by Newcastle Football not to implement a centrally licensed Skills Aquisition Program co-ordinated by Northern NSW Football and highlighted its track record in junior development as justification.

The SAPs, which were officially announced yesterday and will begin this year, are part of the second edition of the Football Federation Australia National Football Curriculum and are aimed at boys aged 10 to 13 years. SAPs for girls between the ages of nine and 12 will be introduced in 2015.
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The six other Northern NSW zones, including Hunter Valley and Macquarie, will have squads of 32 players in each age group.

They will train three nights a week for 36 weeks of the year and play matches against the other zones and in gala days. The best of those players will flow into the Emerging Jets programs.

The SAPs focus on four core skills: striking the ball, first touch, one-versus-one, and running with the ball.

Newcastle Football is Northern’s biggest member zone and in recent years has produced Jets A-League players Ben Kantarovski, Andrew Hoole, James Virgili and Jacob Pepper.

Cucumanovski said that after long discussions with Newcastle Football technical director Richard Hartley, operations manager Russell Henry and NNSWF it had opted to continue its own program.

Its program will include elite club-based competitions whose players will have the opportunity to train under, and be seen by, Newcastle Football coaches. It also will have a regular training group from which teams for the state titles will be chosen.

‘‘We will follow the same curriculum [as the SAP], but we didn’t want to limit it to 32 kids, especially in those age groups,’’ Cucumanovski said.

‘‘Not everyone develops at the same rate. We want to open the program up to as many players as possible.

‘‘In the tens we are looking at 160 kids [in the elite club competition]. In the elevens and twelves it is about 80.

‘‘They will come in once a week and do the exact same training as the SAP. The only difference is that it will be delivered to more kids.’’

Newcastle will not have the benefit of competing weekly against the other zone SAPs but will still participate in the under-11 and under-12 state championships.

Northern NSW chief executive David Eland was disappointed at Newcastle Football’s direction but respected its decision.

‘‘As the state body our role is to implement technical direction,’’ he said. ‘‘This program has been endorsed by FFA.

‘‘Newcastle Football’s view is very aspirational. We do not believe it can be implemented that broadly. We know the level of quality FFA are after and understand the intensity of training required.

‘‘Our SAP coaches are in Armidale this week receiving professional development so they are equipped to deliver the program.

‘‘In our discussions with Newcastle we offered some compromises. We gave them the option of having 20 core players in each squad and rotating others in and out.

‘‘They have decided to go down this path.

‘‘We are very disappointed, but the door is always open.’’

Cucumanovski was confident Newcastle Football would continue to produce high-quality players.

‘‘Our record is pretty strong,’’ he said. ‘‘If another Ben Kantarovski or Andrew Hoole popped up, it would be insane if they were overlooked because they hadn’t come through a program.’’
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Eland said the opportunity to train and play regularly against the best in each zone would put SAP players at an advantage.

‘‘It will definitely be harder for the kids outside the SAP programs to be identified,’’ he said. ‘‘It’s not the end of the world, but one of the aims is to provide a clear and consistent pathway for players.’’

:bs:

Why Blue
16-01-2014, 04:52 PM
Interesting development and will be worth watching how Newcastle go about their program. I agree with the numbers and kids developing at different stages, shame to think a 11yo kid cant get a run because he developed a little slower that another OR worse because his/her parents were not as "developed" as other parents.
Main problem will be coaching, how do you get enough quality coaches for 160 kids ????

Disappointing to see Elands comments, "It will definitely be harder for the kids outside the SAP programs to be identified,’’ he said. ‘‘It’s not the end of the world, but one of the aims is to provide a clear and consistent pathway for players.’’.

Typical Northern NSW our way or the highway bully tactics. They seem to forget that they are supposed to be providing opportunities for each and every child in Northern NSW who wants to participate in football. Not just the ones who pay to participate in their Emerging Jets program.

prawnhead
01-10-2014, 03:21 PM
:bs:

Will be interesting to see how our Elite 13's and 14's go this week at the National titles in Coffs Harbour with a change in Technical Director. Just had a look at the NNSW website and the 14's haven't had the best of starts under GVE losing 2 from 2 but the 13's seem to be going better. Good luck to the boys for the rest of the tournament.

Why Blue
02-10-2014, 10:19 AM
Will be interesting to see how our Elite 13's and 14's go this week at the National titles in Coffs Harbour with a change in Technical Director. Just had a look at the NNSW website and the 14's haven't had the best of starts under GVE losing 2 from 2 but the 13's seem to be going better. Good luck to the boys for the rest of the tournament.

14's now 0-3................its not the TD, its the program the selection process.................the kids................they simply are not the best available from with in this area.

prawnhead
02-10-2014, 10:54 AM
14's now 0-3................its not the TD, its the program the selection process.................the kids................they simply are not the best available from with in this area.

How can it not be the TD? Surely they are in charge of the EJ Program and the selection process.

prawnhead
02-10-2014, 11:35 AM
14's now 0-3................its not the TD, its the program the selection process.................the kids................they simply are not the best available from with in this area.

14's now 0-4 - not a good look.

prawnhead
03-10-2014, 03:44 PM
14's now 0-4 - not a good look.

The 14's have completed their Group matches at the National titles and have faired poorly. They have lost 5 matches and drew 1 and finished equal last. What the hell is doing there!!?? I remember the days when we were right up there challenging for Australian titles (albeit some 30 years ago). Surely questions need to be asked?

Why Blue
07-10-2014, 09:04 AM
The 14's have completed their Group matches at the National titles and have faired poorly. They have lost 5 matches and drew 1 and finished equal last. What the hell is doing there!!?? I remember the days when we were right up there challenging for Australian titles (albeit some 30 years ago). Surely questions need to be asked?

Yes could not win a game, 2 goals in 6 games, positive is their keep was named U/14 keeper of the tournament, makes you wonder what might have happened if he had not played ???? given he played for Olympic this season so came from outside the EJ program

Most everyone who has anything to do with this age group knows that the boys playing EJ's are not the best of the best as NNSWF would like for you to believe.
Most of kids in the team are 2nd or 3rd choice over kids who have left the program and frankly they play that way. Also a bigger group of Individuals you will never see, certainly only playing for them selves, not as a team.

Time for a big broom, selection process borders on being a joke.
I have said before that the EJ program serves no real purpose, except maybe to pay GVE and to inflate some ego's and results from Nationals proves this. Equal last in Under 14's and 5/7 for U/13.
Time is up.

Swanky
07-10-2014, 09:31 AM
Yes could not win a game, 2 goals in 6 games, positive is their keep was named U/14 keeper of the tournament, makes you wonder what might have happened if he had not played ???? given he played for Olympic this season so came from outside the EJ program

Most everyone who has anything to do with this age group knows that the boys playing EJ's are not the best of the best as NNSWF would like for you to believe.
Most of kids in the team are 2nd or 3rd choice over kids who have left the program and frankly they play that way. Also a bigger group of Individuals you will never see, certainly only playing for them selves, not as a team.

Time for a big broom, selection process borders on being a joke.
I have said before that the EJ program serves no real purpose, except maybe to pay GVE and to inflate some ego's and results from Nationals proves this. Equal last in Under 14's and 5/7 for U/13.
Time is up.
Why would kids want to join the EJ program
Once they are in they are banned from all other sports. Back in the day we had internationals come out of the region let kids enjoy themselves till they are 15-16 then bring in the intensive training regime
Kids who are part of the EJ Are barred from other sports ie cricket, nippers, league, union, baseball, little athletics
Let them enjoy their childhood and if FOOTBALL is their passion it will come to the fore

Why Blue
07-10-2014, 11:01 AM
Why would kids want to join the EJ program
Once they are in they are banned from all other sports. Back in the day we had internationals come out of the region let kids enjoy themselves till they are 15-16 then bring in the intensive training regime
Kids who are part of the EJ Are barred from other sports ie cricket, nippers, league, union, baseball, little athletics
Let them enjoy their childhood and if FOOTBALL is their passion it will come to the fore

This is good point, any kid who shows potential at 8,9,10 etc is probably going to be an athlete,with good hand eye co-ordination, so probably a good swimmer, runner, cricketer etc.
These sports may also help kids develop thier skills and fitness.
So what do EJ's say................nooooo, give them up, must concentrate 100% on football..........

So some kids give the EJ's away, so they can swim, surf, play cricket, do athletics etc.

So what's left, the die hard 100% "i'm gonna be a socceroo " tragic who is driven by thier parents lack of success......

Footyhead
07-10-2014, 09:16 PM
The EJ program though good in concept is a ****in joke in how it's administered, even still now with Dave Smith gone.

GO AWAY
08-10-2014, 12:57 PM
hear hear or is it here here ???? there are better kids at all age groups playing in all NPL youth teams, whether their choice, or the choice of players parents in the know with coaching staff at EJ.

Ill use the Macquarie Under 12 who won the state titles in Coffs Harbour just five years ago, i think there is three or four in the EJ programme, the other 11 play NPL in either under 17/19, if it is so far below the suposed EJ programme, im sure they wouldntve/couldntve/shouldntve dropped out of the system five years down the track.