man, youve got access to living that 24/7 life.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFKS
of course it would involve actually getting off your ass and doing it instead of talking about it.
which doesnt seem like your strong point.
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man, youve got access to living that 24/7 life.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFKS
of course it would involve actually getting off your ass and doing it instead of talking about it.
which doesnt seem like your strong point.
now, this is a good discussion point.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFKS
will freely admit im only new to this youth football thing. but man oh man have we met some gnarly people along the way.
there are kids currently doing multiple extra sessions in camps like Jobe Wheelhouse of Richard Hartley, as well as playing futsol.
and all this is in the 'off' season from SAP and NET programs.
now im not sure of the stats, but it would be interesting to know how many of these kids doing this much work actually ever go on to achieve what they set out to do.
because im already seeing kids looking burnt out and doubt they will be still as keen come the age of 15/16.
theres a lot to be said for keeping kids interested all whilst keeping them on the right path technically.
now i sure as heck dont know the balance, but it will be interesting to see the teams make up over the next few years.
Wow so much wrong by so many people, though MFKS is more correct than plague. Seasons in Newcastle is way too short, to be able to develop many players. And in order to get better players you need to have a much bigger pool (180 players in SAP U9) is a very small pool and half of the kids are there because they can afford it not because they are the best in the region. It does hurt the clubs and the players that they have to share with cricket (which doesn't happen in other parts of the country). And yes the engagement for that large pool of players needs to be for much longer in the year than what we currently do in Australia.
How many SAP games have you watched?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatscheese
Because from this comment its obvious its not enough.
Some clubs couldnt even field teams because no one trialed.
Other clubs were routinely belted because they kids just arent good enough.
There was talk that this year they were letting some clubs field only one team in order to start providing a bit of competition to the strong clubs.
The pool is plenty big enough, and the clubs that have a decent amount of talent have provided NET teams as well as SAP in order to catch anyone that might be good but not quite at that level.
Our club invited the 'best' of the mini roos kids ( a team that was winning 20-0 every week) in to train with the SAP kids at the end of last year to give them a taste of what the next level was like
how these SAP kids in Newy shape up against other kids is an unknown, as the consensus is that games dont matter til 11's or 12's.
whether thats the correct attitude is also unknown.
id also think the length of season is also with respect to not burning the kids out. we saw kids that live/breath football 24/7 and by the end of the season they were fatigued. these are 9 year old kids. they need a break.
but of course Joe Blow up in the stands thinks the kids need to harden up.
hate to break it to you, but none of these kids are doing any of this for your broke asses. deal with it.
You clearly have no idea the best way to increase the availability of talent and potential talent (hint: it isn't about focusing on a small group for part of the year), and also have no idea about child development and differing rates of improvement.
huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatscheese
you think im here to tell you how it 'should' be done?
nah boss, im only telling you what a player is going through at the age we were discussing.
although im digging your MFKS-lite posts, im always here to learn the correct way to raise a child.
well go on, the floor is yours.
explain how its done.
I already have yet you chose to ignore it. It requires the ability for all players to be able to develop as kids will develop and improve at different ages, it also allows lower teams and groups to improve which in turn raises the average skill and increases the skills of higher players. This needs to also be coupled with much longer time engaged in these activities, not for part of the year it does need to be year round but that doesn't mean it has to be structured 4-5 times a week either
so who pays for the extra coaching, referees, ground use and insurance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatscheese
you'll need to explain this bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatscheese
you want ALL kids in each age group doing the same coaching/training level?
would you still have programs for the 'best of the best' in each age?
You guys are nearly arguing for the same thing.
As I said before theres nearly 300 U9's ready to go for SAP next year. Thats a large number and some teams didnt get enough players.
For what I saw this year progression is quite large. Add to that many players from these SAP teams are now playing NET summer comp or Summer '6s/7's so these players have a solid 9 months of quality skills acquisition.
Now if a player somehow misses out on these teams then mum or dad needs to get onto youtube/interwebs and put together a training schedule. A monkey can do it from scratch. Info is everywhere. Do the training. Hunt around and join in futsal/summer teams. I know kids who have recently made a path this way. But I wouldnt wait too long now the junior skills acquisition teams have ramped up massively in the last few years.
Plague you keep looking at this through the NNSWApproved Elite Development Pathway trying to create the next Hoffman / Hoole / BK etcQuote:
Originally Posted by plague
Got to start looking at it for the average kid who gets exposed to the game at a young age by mum and dad. For whatever reasons Mum and Dad have put Little Johnny before the code of Football and we have an opportunity to hook that kid to the game with a lufetime love for the game
A 6 month season for them would appear to be the best option for this purpose rather than a 3 and a bit month season
As for 6 months being enough time for Burnout FMD
They are kids with all the energy in the world
nah.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFKS
youre the one saying kids need 'more' football.
im saying there is a chance for kids to get 'more' football.
but then you dont want it 'that' way, you want it done a different way.
im asking what that different way is?
you and my man Cheese, explain yo'selves.
Do you think the current SAP system has the best of the best players?Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
So many of the kids in the SAP programs are there to make up the numbers I question the value to the truely elite kids. Are we actually holding back the good kids by having an "everyone gets a prize" (as long as you can afford the entry) system of elite development. For my mind its watered down the talent pool for the sake of numbers.
The killer for me is I have seen community club teams (across many clubs) gutted when players run off to SAP. The result is kids left behind leaving the sport because their team folds. I think we would be better to scale back the size of the elite programs, encourage community clubs to improve coaching/development and increase playing season by another 1-2 months (it can be fit in, particularly for mini-roos ages).
Community clubs could then better underpin the elite programs by feeding better players, rather than being seen as places by the SAP clubs to pillage players to get numbers.
nah, im getting the feeling some of you blokes are confusing this SAP program with "things that were done in the beforetime".Quote:
Originally Posted by sammydog
SAP program put out calls for trials, the mini roos coaches actively encouraged their 'better' kids to attend.
The 'best' kids from the trials were selected. we certainly didnt have to present a P&L to the committee in order to get Plague Jnr in. He was picked (as one of the 2nd tier players) but he showed some talent and willingness to learn. This year about 10/18 kids lost their spots to new trialists. again, the kids who were there werent guaranteed anything and theres certainly no one in his squad who is there because of money.
I know our club has payment plan options and stuff for parents if the money is an issue. last year it was about double the cost of Mini Roos, but they got twice the football so it was justified.
The SAP program was introduced to combat the "elite development squads" that were around (and still are) that had that reputation for favouring certain kids and letting parents buy their way in.
Our club made a point of telling us this pre-season and i believe them.
SAP teams are a requirement for any club aspiring to get into NPL. im bummed out Cooks Hill didnt get involved, would love to know why they didnt, as they certainly had the juniors to fill squads. Yet it seems their best kids left in order to get a spot. So whos fault is that, the kid for wanting more, or the club for not getting involved?
again, no one has explained to me how the mini roos program is going to expand to make the 'rest' of these kids better. more training, more use of grounds. it all costs money, so who foots the bill?
parents again? ok, so now are we getting back to money being the factor.
thats the question im asking.
actually i wanted to pull this comment out as it is pertinent to this whole topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammydog
A good bunch of clubs this year had pretty poor performing players in their SAP squads. Much was made of it and it was floated (but not sure if confirmed) that some clubs will be allowed to only field one team this year in order to provide better competition.
this change in structure def seems be done with the quality if kids in mind, and not fielding teams because parents have the money.
again, does this program capture every kid who is good? of course not.
does it do a better job of identifying kids and nurturing it based on ability alone? well its year 2, and its always evolving, but all feedback so far has been about making this program as an antidote for the sins of the past.
As far as I am aware, and correct me if I am wrong, not all clubs can run a SAP program. It was only open to NPL and NL1 clubs for the Boys and the girls are still Newcastle, Hunter and NNSW.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Football Victoria opened the program up to all clubs to apply for a licence, I am not sure of other confederations. This to me seems like a better system.
For a lot of smaller clubs, this program has a big drain on players. You develop them up and now at the age of 9 the good players move on. That makes development of players beyond this age hard as you are struggling to hold teams together.
For us, ground use fees don't go up if we play more games or the season is expanded. Only difference in cost may be the electricity bill for running the lights. Perhaps if you are paying coaches there is a cost to be incurred, but at the moment I cant see many mini-roos coaches being paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Extending a mini-roos season doesn't need to cost money. Getting coaches educated does.
If we want to improve coaching and get more coaches accredited, follow the Football Victoria model. Open SAP up but have strict guidelines and make clubs apply again each year to weed out the non-compliant ones.
If SAP was open to all clubs, you would have clubs with aspirations actually able to increase their coaching education and attract (or at very least retain) their best kids. In this scenario mini-roos clubs could have a two tiered system within their clubs. Kids that want the extra move into SAP, and those that don't stay in community.
You could argue clubs should already be up-skilling coaches, and I think you will find a lot are, but if you aren't a SAP program no matter how good your coaches are, the kids won't stay.
For discussion, below is details on the victorian system.
Quote:
Criteria to be a SAP Affiliated Club
Clubs wanting to be recognised as a SAP Affiliated Club will have to meet the following criteria upon submitting their application;
No additional cost to players/parents.
Nominated club member to be SAP Club Co-ordinator who will complete all administrative duties and be the point of contact between FFV SAP and the club.
Coaches for SAP teams must hold a current Skill Training Certificate accreditation or higher.
SAP teams will follow the season plan and sessions designed by the Head of Skill Acquisition at FFV (or approved club season plan and sessions).
All SAP team coaches registered on MyFootballClub with their respective club and team.
After each year clubs will have to re-apply to be recognised as a SAP club. It is intended that the program is delivered to the desired format and philosophy, which will be taken into consideration when reviewing applications each year.
Major Changes to the SAP
Free for clubs to join, so no licence fee!
All clubs in Victoria can now apply to be affiliated with the program, not just NPL/WNPL clubs.
Players involved in the SAP only come from within an affiliated SAP club. Players do not come from outside of the club to join a SAP.*
Team rating in place to recognise clubs, teams and coaches that want to invest in youth development and see the benefit of delivering the Skill Acquisition Program.
New sessions and methodology involving more 'Whole - Part - Whole' sessions.
*Some WNPL and regional NPL clubs who do not have underpinning junior teams will be eligible to offer players external from the WNPL/NPL club the opportunity to join a SAP group. Limits on teams and cost to players will apply in this case.
Hi All
Having watched this conversation and also being and involved parent of the U9s SAP I would like to give my 2 cents.
I do support the comments around not being enough good players to spread around the clubs. Strong Teams such as Hamilton, Broadmeadow, Lambton belted teams week in week out.
Adversely...Did the program work..Yes. The standard of the lower teams advanced significantly from start to end of season.
Also observed one stronger teams modify the training program to test their team.
I believe you may see a shift in who are the stronger Clubs next season with teams like Lake Macquarie fielding numerous 8yo last season who will play again.
The season is long enough especially when the little legs are expected to train and play at the lake mac facility. Spoke to many parents and coaches of clubs who were happy to confirm and that surface is tough to be on. Take note of how many ankle and knee injuries happen as part of the FFA Cup games held there.
There are numerous opportunities to play in Futsal and 5 a side comps all across the Hunter. Also Hartley and Wheelhouse groups for the higher levels
Main criticism I have is the standard set for refereeing. As a paying parent (of quite a substantial amount of money) we accepted volunteer referees. many of which were siblings and parents.
Many Club's were witnessed exploiting the familiarity of the referees with sneaky play or foul play as they were in no position to enforce anything. NNSW need to accept that with the so called elite program there will be competitiveness between kids, parents and coaches. But put a system in (which is only equivalent to community football by the way. ie - designated referees) to enforce the basic rules which all need to follow. This simply supports the children's view of what is also expected.
Excellent post.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammydog
Cheers for the feedback (am i right in that you are part of running a club?).
Again, the SAP thing is an ever evolving beast. the clubs freely admit it. Hopefully they take on the Victorian changes, it can only be a good thing.
Has your club been slugged extra in your lighting costs yet? One of the massive increases over the past few seasons for inner city clubs has been a huge increase in the cost of maintaining and running their lights. we def have heard about clubs cutting back on training nights to save cash rather than bump up regos.
Also, yes, the coaching will be a massive problem. its ok for well intentioned mums and dads to run the kids around on a weeknight. and to be fair there are some legit good coaches teaching the kids out there. but yeah, if you want that to improve, and to be consistent across the board, coaches need to be trained. it costs money, and if you multiply that out and add it to the extra time needed to be invested by 'parents' wanting to coach, then does that deter more coaches than it encourages?
but yeah, the costs of grounds and coaches would have to come back to the rego. agree FFA/NNSW 'should' make it easier, but cmon, are they gonna go handing money back to the game?
The SAP thing has been interesting to watch unfold. some clubs can field multiple quality teams, some clubs didnt even trial under 10's, they just kept their kids around from last year and poached any good ones they saw along the way.
(you wont be shocked to hear that those are the clubs that have a reputation for not really developing their youth anyway).
id love to eventually see clubs rewarded at NPL level for 'developing' those kids, and with the absolute top tier of those ids starting to get moved into the Emerging Jets program from about age 12 (i think), the evidence of whether it works is only a few short years away.
just out of curiosity, does seeing the loss of juniors to a program like SAP make your club determined to be involved in SAP, or make you less interested in juniors knowing they might leave?Quote:
Originally Posted by sammydog
id assume both answers would be valid in certain circumstances, and hopefully if its the latter then something can be done to avoid it, because obviously thats the exact opposite of whats good for the game.
yeah can agree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retired01
we were lucky in that we had a few players at a decent level as parents in our squad so we had plenty of refs who knew not only the rules but also how to ref a game.
but yeah, some clubs were hopelessly underprepared, and some days there were dudes out there who had no idea what they were doing.
i did speak to the NNSW coaches on my own accord about how they wanted games refereed. the 'official' line was that the games didnt matter in the overall scheme of things at that age so they werent overly concerned. off the record i was told just to play lots of advantage (to keep the ball in play) and be generous with the offside rule, except players standing 5m offside waiting for the long ball. i found that as long as you were clear to the coaches before games, there were never any dramas.
can def say that to the kids, the games mattered so the referreeing is important. would love to have seen a couple of sessions with interested parents and a NNSW rep on the nights they train out at the Speers Pt facility to help them out. can only assume that once full field kicks in soon, then proper refs will be appointed.