Miller - He's Out (pg 25)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tommyjet

I respect Leonardo is getting better but I'd like to see his turnover stats. Such a frustrating player when he shows that the talent is there but he spends half the game walking, a quarter abusing his teammates (mostly when he is in the wrong), and the rest is mostly turnovers mixed in with some the occasional sublime skill.
I would like to see him play the ball off his teammates a bit more rather than dribbling a touch too far into traffic.
Also his first bit of 'end product' yesterday with the assist to nobbys nutcracker

---

Probably a fair comment, as long as his perceived "temperamental" issues aren't affecting the rest of the playing group in a negative way then we probably shouldn't dwell on it too much. It's a bonus having a player who takes on players like Leonardo and yes it would be ideal if he were to strike up more of a balance of passing the ball more often too, but the truth is that with him in the side we just look so much more effective in attack. When he beats a player, they are out of the equation and instead of say 5 on 4 it becomes 4 on 4 and it just creates more space for other team-mates, let alone the uncertainty it creates in the opposition defence who get pulled out of position trying to compensate.
Yes, can be a little frustrating at times but I wouldn't like to see him change his style of play too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stopper2

Probably a fair comment, as long as his perceived "temperamental" issues aren't affecting the rest of the playing group in a negative way then we probably shouldn't dwell on it too much. It's a bonus having a player who takes on players like Leonardo and yes it would be ideal if he were to strike up more of a balance of passing the ball more often too, but the truth is that with him in the side we just look so much more effective in attack. When he beats a player, they are out of the equation and instead of say 5 on 4 it becomes 4 on 4 and it just creates more space for other team-mates, let alone the uncertainty it creates in the opposition defence who get pulled out of position trying to compensate.
Yes, can be a little frustrating at times but I wouldn't like to see him change his style of play too much.

---

The only time I see praise for Leonardo is on here. The people that sit surrounding me at the game and those I talk to via various football circles don't rate him very much at all.
Yesterday he finally showed some end product. His stats and effectiveness is nowhere near good enough to warrant a contract extension. Despite him getting an assist last night, I believe nordstand needs to be brought closer to the action and would be far more productive than Leonardo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by plague

Give me this bloke doing this shit every ****ing week.

Better than the steaming pile of shit we've had there over the past few years.

His blowups are awesome. All the young blokes put their heads down or run for the hills but Milos is all like "chill the **** out Leo".

Would def pay money to see Leo and Alidovic throw hands at training.

---

right on

christ, the bloke sets up two goals and gets hauled over the coals. imagine if he did 9/11 like gve did

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by q-money

right on

christ, the bloke sets up two goals and gets hauled over the coals. imagine if he did 9/11 like gve did

---

Yeah f*cking hell. Let's crucify the one guy on our league worst attack that is actually creative and looks threatening. He might have had four assists yesterday if our strikers/Alivodic didn't sh*t themselves in good positions. We're finally scoring some goals and people still want to have a go at the guy that is largely responsible for our turnaround.

Most of the Fox crew reckon he is our diamond...and we are a different team without him.

Alivodic is shit
Leonardo is not

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetmaster

Most of the Fox crew reckon he is our diamond...and we are a different team without him.

---

Leonardo, okay I agree with some of what Tommyjet is saying but he is our "go to man" and most of the season it's been almost like chalk and cheese comparing the side to when he is playing and when he is not playing. The plus now though with having Nobby in the squad is that if Leonardo were to be out again, we would have the Dane available to slot straight into the #10 role rather than using Kitto or Cooper or Kanta

While Kitto or Cooper are our options, Leo needs to start.

Leonard's anticipation, movement off the ball and positioning (to collect Milos' lovely touch) then acceleration, awareness and pass to set up Nobby is all you need to see to realise he's streets ahead of anyone else in our squad in that role.

he is always playing forward, and combined with the Ugabooga man being a positive DM (oh how I miss Stu) we are playing a lot more positive football.
With that comes mistakes. So ****ern what. Beats retreating into our box the second we get a lead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by q-money

imagine if he did 9/11 like gve did

---

#jetfuelcantmeltpossessionstats

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by q-money

right on

christ, the bloke sets up two goals and gets hauled over the coals. imagine if he did 9/11 like gve did

---

the planes had "great engines"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmeletteDuFromage

the planes had "great engines"

---

Oh now see, this is fantastic.
This is how you do a good post on nf.net

Bravo

It was great that Miller came to the away bay before kick-off and thank the fans for travelling

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lil_masi

It was great that Miller came to the away bay before kick-off and thank the fans for travelling

---

That should be the ****ing normal

What he done yesterday is is his job.

Beat the Gypo scum in their own backyard.

The only games that matter are the F3 derbies.


Glad to see him delivering on this front

Season	Points gained after being behind	Points lost after being ahead
05/06	1	5
06/07	5	2
07/08	6	4
08/09	2	20
09/10	1	15
10/11	2	6
11/12	9	6
12/13	2	10
13/14	4	16
14/15	2	18
15/16*	8	10

*Season to date

It's interesting to see there is a never-say-die attitude developing in the team. Granted it's best not to be in the position where you need to recover points in the first place, but when needed we are seeing the team actually can.

Now we need to develop the resilience we had back in season 05/06 - 07/08 where we didn't lose from ahead.

Note it can be deceiving because if you draw after being ahead, you've lost 2 points, where if you draw after being behind you only gain 1. A low number can also indicate we won matches outright or lost them too.

Anyway, just as a discussion point.

Interesting stats mate, yes it looks to be our best season since 11/12 for coming from behind, which indicates 1/ never say die mentality 2/ the team is overall fitter than it has been for a few years. Over the years at home games we have dropped points at the death....even this season SFC, WSW & gypos earlier in the season....this is something we need to rectify.

I don't even remember being ahead of any team in 08/09 or 14/15. Surprised we were seemingly so many times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeterpool

Now we need to develop the resilience we had back in season 05/06 - 07/08 where we didn't lose from ahead.

---

score 1 then bore everyone to tears, 3pts baby

Anyway Miller has done the business now.

Won away at browntongue and almost consigned gypos to the spoon.

Season = successful end it now.

Certainly been some positives under Miller this season and considering where were last season and the budget constraints under FFA we probably can't complain too much about where the club is at with 6 games to go. The disappointing thing for me is the seemingly lack of developing or "nurturing" of our young players apart from probably Jackson and Cowburn. Even Cowby has basically been used in a "stop-gap" role for most of this season as a LB rather than giving him valuable game-time in his best position in Centre Mid. Likes of Cooper and Pavicevic have been used very sporadically and numerous times left warming the bench for the whole game. Lundy hasn't been sighted since the 2nd game against SFC, apart from a few cameos warming the bench also. Kitto also had a brief period in the middle of the season where he made a few appearances, had a minor injury but also has been unsighted for weeks now.
I believe Cooper and Lundy are coming off contract at the end of this season, were they given enough opportunities to impress this season in order to get an extension on their contract?....probably not in my opinion.
Bringing our younger players up to A League level is something we need to start doing better as a club. I'm not saying any of these players should be regular starters but you look at likes of Kamau, Mauk, Borrello etc. who have either debuted this season or towards the end of last season and you can see them preogressing as players.
Oh and I also forgot Andy Brennan....Who???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stopper2

Certainly been some positives under Miller this season and considering where were last season and the budget constraints under FFA we probably can't complain too much about where the club is at with 6 games to go. The disappointing thing for me is the seemingly lack of developing or "nurturing" of our young players apart from probably Jackson and Cowburn. Even Cowby has basically been used in a "stop-gap" role for most of this season as a LB rather than giving him valuable game-time in his best position in Centre Mid. Likes of Cooper and Pavicevic have been used very sporadically and numerous times left warming the bench for the whole game. Lundy hasn't been sighted since the 2nd game against SFC, apart from a few cameos warming the bench also. Kitto also had a brief period in the middle of the season where he made a few appearances, had a minor injury but also has been unsighted for weeks now.
I believe Cooper and Lundy are coming off contract at the end of this season, were they given enough opportunities to impress this season in order to get an extension on their contract?....probably not in my opinion.
Bringing our younger players up to A League level is something we need to start doing better as a club. I'm not saying any of these players should be regular starters but you look at likes of Kamau, Mauk, Borrello etc. who have either debuted this season or towards the end of last season and you can see them preogressing as players.
Oh and I also forgot Andy Brennan....Who???

---

If you want to see what it looks like when you develop youth all year take a look at the Mariners this season.

We haven't had a stable enough year tactics/form wise to start dumping youth kids into the game and expecting them to improve. As long as they are improving behind the scenes and as a squad we are improving then they will be able to earn new contracts. Cooper has looked better the few times he has come on in the 2nd half of the season than his earlier performances. Lundy will just have to work hard at training to prove that he can make a difference.

When you're good enough, you're old enough.

If Miller doesn't think they're good enough then so be it.

As for Cowburn playing out of position, Kewell had to play LB when he started in the UK...its just a normal part of breaking into a team. I'm happy with Ugar and Poljak and Kanta having the starting DM roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stopper2

Certainly been some positives under Miller this season and considering where were last season and the budget constraints under FFA we probably can't complain too much about where the club is at with 6 games to go. The disappointing thing for me is the seemingly lack of developing or "nurturing" of our young players apart from probably Jackson and Cowburn. Even Cowby has basically been used in a "stop-gap" role for most of this season as a LB rather than giving him valuable game-time in his best position in Centre Mid. Likes of Cooper and Pavicevic have been used very sporadically and numerous times left warming the bench for the whole game. Lundy hasn't been sighted since the 2nd game against SFC, apart from a few cameos warming the bench also. Kitto also had a brief period in the middle of the season where he made a few appearances, had a minor injury but also has been unsighted for weeks now.
I believe Cooper and Lundy are coming off contract at the end of this season, were they given enough opportunities to impress this season in order to get an extension on their contract?....probably not in my opinion.
Bringing our younger players up to A League level is something we need to start doing better as a club. I'm not saying any of these players should be regular starters but you look at likes of Kamau, Mauk, Borrello etc. who have either debuted this season or towards the end of last season and you can see them preogressing as players.
Oh and I also forgot Andy Brennan....Who???

---

I think to have 3 young players (Cowburn, Jackson and Ugarkovic) in our team featuring regularly is an achievement. Cowburn and Jackson are essentially shoe-horned in the position because we didn't recruit a reserve left back. I would think we'd have eassumed Ki-Je would still be here. Kitto can't get back into a winning team unfortunately.

I agree the likes of Borello and Kamau have come along this year, but Mauk has been in the City fold for maybe 3 years and only now is performing.

This year we needed to consolidate and improve on last year and Miller has relied heavily on experienced players. That's why we were seeing the likes of Cam Watson getting extended runs in the team.

Perhaps if we get to a point where finals are no longer a chance we will see a Brennan, Cooper or Pavicevic get a go especially if we don't see Enver, Nordstrand, Milos or Leo (being they're the direct squad competition those young players have) being part of the club next season. Cooper still has a year but to be honest, he has 32 appearances for the team already so I'd think he is quite established.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frodo

We haven't had a stable enough year tactics/form wise to start dumping youth kids into the game and expecting them to improve. As long as they are improving behind the scenes and as a squad we are improving then they will be able to earn new contracts. Cooper has looked better the few times he has come on in the 2nd half of the season than his earlier performances. Lundy will just have to work hard at training to prove that he can make a difference.

---

Totally missed my point, maybe you should go back and read it again!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeterpool

I think to have 3 young players (Cowburn, Jackson and Ugarkovic) in our team featuring regularly is an achievement. Cowburn and Jackson are essentially shoe-horned in the position because we didn't recruit a reserve left back. I would think we'd have eassumed Ki-Je would still be here. Kitto can't get back into a winning team unfortunately.

I agree the likes of Borello and Kamau have come along this year, but Mauk has been in the City fold for maybe 3 years and only now is performing.

This year we needed to consolidate and improve on last year and Miller has relied heavily on experienced players. That's why we were seeing the likes of Cam Watson getting extended runs in the team.

Perhaps if we get to a point where finals are no longer a chance we will see a Brennan, Cooper or Pavicevic get a go especially if we don't see Enver, Nordstrand, Milos or Leo (being they're the direct squad competition those young players have) being part of the club next season. Cooper still has a year but to be honest, he has 32 appearances for the team already so I'd think he is quite established.

---

Mauk has moved to Adelaide I think?

Also I agree that once our season is gone we should blood some youngsters.. Within reason and not at the expense of regular starters who they are looking to keep next year.. Last few games can work well to form some chemistry and give blokes one last shot. It should however be relatively clear who they are and are not keeping by now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeterpool

I think to have 3 young players (Cowburn, Jackson and Ugarkovic) in our team featuring regularly is an achievement. Cowburn and Jackson are essentially shoe-horned in the position because we didn't recruit a reserve left back. I would think we'd have eassumed Ki-Je would still be here. Kitto can't get back into a winning team unfortunately.

I agree the likes of Borello and Kamau have come along this year, but Mauk has been in the City fold for maybe 3 years and only now is performing.

This year we needed to consolidate and improve on last year and Miller has relied heavily on experienced players. That's why we were seeing the likes of Cam Watson getting extended runs in the team.

Perhaps if we get to a point where finals are no longer a chance we will see a Brennan, Cooper or Pavicevic get a go especially if we don't see Enver, Nordstrand, Milos or Leo (being they're the direct squad competition those young players have) being part of the club next season. Cooper still has a year but to be honest, he has 32 appearances for the team already so I'd think he is quite established.

---

You make some good points in reponse to my post and yes what you are saying does make a lot of sense Jeterpool.
I suppose Miller pretty much all season has taken a pretty conservative, low percentage approach to not only games this season but his selections abd he has every right to do that because at the end of the day it is the result that matters.
Having said that, there has been numerous times during the season where I feel in particular Cooper (and lesser extent Pav and Lundy) could have been thrown on with 15-20 to go, to not only see if he can make a difference but expose him more at this level. This is essesntially what I'm talking about not proposing to go down the Mariners path as Frodo has assumed I am getting at.
Anyway that's my opinion and going by the way many were asking the question of "Where's Cooper" earlier in the season, I think many would be in agreement with me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RAM

When you're good enough, you're old enough.

---

Pfffft, tell that to Adam Johnson.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by plague

Pfffft, tell that to Adam Johnson.

---

And that's the end of that chapter *flicks scarf over shoulder*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilso8948

Mauk has moved to Adelaide I think?

Also I agree that once our season is gone we should blood some youngsters.. Within reason and not at the expense of regular starters who they are looking to keep next year.. Last few games can work well to form some chemistry and give blokes one last shot. It should however be relatively clear who they are and are not keeping by now.

---

Yeah he has moved to Adelaide. I was suggesting it took him maybe 3 years to get a decent opportunity and flourish in the starting XI more so than as a fringe player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by plague

Pfffft, tell that to Adam Johnson.

---

Wow. That's 15 internet points right there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stopper2

You make some good points in reponse to my post and yes what you are saying does make a lot of sense Jeterpool.
I suppose Miller pretty much all season has taken a pretty conservative, low percentage approach to not only games this season but his selections abd he has every right to do that because at the end of the day it is the result that matters.
Having said that, there has been numerous times during the season where I feel in particular Cooper (and lesser extent Pav and Lundy) could have been thrown on with 15-20 to go, to not only see if he can make a difference but expose him more at this level. This is essesntially what I'm talking about not proposing to go down the Mariners path as Frodo has assumed I am getting at.
Anyway that's my opinion and going by the way many were asking the question of "Where's Cooper" earlier in the season, I think many would be in agreement with me.

---

The highlighted section I definitely agree with too. Getting 5 minutes here or there isn't going to do anyone any good. You're barely up to the flow of the game by the time the whistle goes.

That situation isn't going to present itself every match but when it does we certainly haven't taken it. Remember back earlier in the season we weren't using all our allocated subs each match? That screamed to me of a lack of trust in the quality of our squad's depth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeterpool

The highlighted section I definitely agree with too. Getting 5 minutes here or there isn't going to do anyone any good. You're barely up to the flow of the game by the time the whistle goes.

That situation isn't going to present itself every match but when it does we certainly haven't taken it. Remember back earlier in the season we weren't using all our allocated subs each match? That screamed to me of a lack of trust in the quality of our squad's depth.

---

To be fair though, Pav played a few decent spells last season and had a few runs this year and nothing I have seen from him shows me that he is anything more than a NPL standard player like many others that have been through the club before, the players from other clubs mentioned (Borello, Mauk etc) are youth internationals many times over and the reason that the likes of Pav and Lundy have never made any of these sides is because they are not good enough. So to compare their lack of opportunity compared to Australia's best youth players that are at other clubs is a bit unfair. Cooper on the other hand could have had more minutes IMO but it appears after the first half against city early in the year he was not trusted by the gaffer until more recently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Camel

To be fair though, Pav played a few decent spells last season and had a few runs this year and nothing I have seen from him shows me that he is anything more than a NPL standard player like many others that have been through the club before, the players from other clubs mentioned (Borello, Mauk etc) are youth internationals many times over and the reason that the likes of Pav and Lundy have never made any of these sides is because they are not good enough. So to compare their lack of opportunity compared to Australia's best youth players that are at other clubs is a bit unfair. Cooper on the other hand could have had more minutes IMO but it appears after the first half against city early in the year he was not trusted by the gaffer until more recently.

---

Playing for Oz at youth level is not a good indicator of quality for a senior contract.

Look at our past youth internationals and who made it at pro level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Camel

To be fair though, Pav played a few decent spells last season and had a few runs this year and nothing I have seen from him shows me that he is anything more than a NPL standard player like many others that have been through the club before, the players from other clubs mentioned (Borello, Mauk etc) are youth internationals many times over and the reason that the likes of Pav and Lundy have never made any of these sides is because they are not good enough. So to compare their lack of opportunity compared to Australia's best youth players that are at other clubs is a bit unfair. Cooper on the other hand could have had more minutes IMO but it appears after the first half against city early in the year he was not trusted by the gaffer until more recently.

---

Probably tend to agree with you on Pav, Lundy (as did Papas) on the other hand I believe did make some Joeys squads when he was younger and to be fair he hasn't exactly had enough opportunities at ALeague level to gauge whether he is in fact "good enough".
I remember a former KB United player telling me a story about a young David Lowe who was in the KB youth team and wasn't exactly the best player but the coach (not sure now who it was) saw something in him and believed he was ready for the next level. Don't think he was quite 18 but the coach gave him his starting debut, scores a brace and the rest is history....goes on to have an excellent career over 15 years in the NSL winning titles with premier club Marconi.
You just never know unless you give the player a go!

I think that coach would have been Ken Kaiser.....and Lowie was playing off Mick Channon as well.

Everytime Pavicevic gets on the park he looks scared. Never looks to go forward or take on his man. Compare this to guys like Kamau, Pain, Clut and the gulf in class/talent/confidence is clear

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BP Super Dynamos

Everytime Pavicevic gets on the park he looks scared. Never looks to go forward or take on his man. Compare this to guys like Kamau, Pain, Clut and the gulf in class/talent/confidence is clear

---

This is a good point - there are some young kids that look confident and make an immediate impact (Kruse, Zullo, Goodwin, Austin, Barbar, that Jai kid etc). Many go on with it.

We have a history of bringing kids on that look like they are caught in headlights (Mooy, Virgili, Pav, Crowley, Pinto et al), who have a few goes from the bench, maybe get a full game if we are desperate and go nowhere. I can't remember anyone coming on and bossing a game apart from Holland, Taggart and possibly now, Ugarkovic. And only Holland had come through from the lower levels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetmaster

I think that coach would have been Ken Kaiser.....and Lowie was playing off Mick Channon as well.

---

Whether or not he was playing off Mick Shannon or..... Diego Maradona.... is irrelevant as we are talking about giving young players a go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stopper2

Whether or not he was playing off Mick Shannon or..... Diego Maradona.... is irrelevant as we are talking about giving young players a go.

---

The point was that Lowie was given an opportunity with great support from his coach and a quality mentor to work with.

I didn't expect the spanish inquisition.