The A-League Expansion Thread

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Originally Posted by plague

no, the salary cap would have to be much less based on the difference in FFA grant/tv money/general revenue.
from my understanding a lot of players O/S have release clauses in their contracts activated by relegation. This would probably be win/win as the club doesnt have to pay higher wages.

the bigger issue is with support staff/club employees who may be surplus to requirements in the 2nd div. good luck being the person who has to sack someone for no fault of their own.

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Their contracts would be the same.

I've been involved with companies that have had employment contracts subject to grant money - similar principle.

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Originally Posted by RAM

Their contracts would be the same.

I've been involved with companies that have had employment contracts subject to grant money - similar principle.

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oh no doubt.
would be interesting with CEO's/coaches etc too. Clubs decide to hang onto to someone earning wages they maybe can't afford vs saving the cash and going with a cheaper option but lessening the chances of going back up.

Need to aim high with attendances and look at potential growth.

Hard to believe but every current side has had a home crowd of at least 20,000 at least once. Except CCM who have a couple of 19k crowds and Perth who we know can do it if they get it right (best 16k plus).

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Originally Posted by plague

ok lets do this one at a time.
1. But is it A-League standard? Lighting/seating etc? Id actually have no problem if 2nd div clubs had lower compliance standards but once they hit the big time they need to play at an A-League level stadium (hence getting a big lease etc). So they are gonna need way more than 4000 crowds to be solvent. You think they can get the numbers? How do they get them? Because everyone wants them to 'stay the same' yet as they are they are getting 4000.

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I think you apply the FFA Cup standard across the board. Expecting everyone to play at Suncorp or other large stadiums with no atmosphere is counterproductive imo.

As long as there is sufficient seating in a grandstand and lighting to FFA Cup levels, then this should be enough imo.

In terms of crowd numbers, these clubs were getting that much or more in the NSL and its silly to think they would get NPL sized crowds playing in a national competition with teams like MV or WSW visiting. The bigger the stage the bigger the crowds. They don't need huge crowds to be solvent - if they did they would have folded decades ago like the Breakers.

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Originally Posted by plague

2. I don't think licence fees should apply either once promo/relegation starts, but the simple fact is the existing clubs have paid big big money to join in and then go on to lose even more. To then have new clubs turn up and get an easier ride in doesnt sit well with me either. The 2nd div doesnt get off the ground without the approval of the existing clubs, so they are gonna want to see these new clubs pony up as well.

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Agreed, but the licence fee is to enter a second division with conditional promotion/relegation - ala the model suggested by the NQF chair. In this case it must be reduced, as it is a lesser "right" or "privilege" to join the 2nd division.

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Originally Posted by plague

3. So you want the clubs to operate as is, then if they make the big time 'then' they have to be compliant? What if they can't? You want court cases and appeals? Look at the farce the local comp has agreeing on a compliance standard. Im saying get a rock solid compliance standard from day one (which means these smaller clubs WILL have to finance facilities etc) well before they see the money come back in. and if then never go up how are they ever going to pay the bills?

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No, you mis-read me. Have a minimum standard for the 2nd division, and conditional promotion based upon a relaxed standard at HAL level.

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Originally Posted by plague

4. OK, heres my big big problem with a lot of you guys. You are throwing figures around which are such pie in the sky its not funny.
In Spain, the 2nd div gets 10% of the TV money to spread between their teams.
In England the Championship teams get approx 5% of the TV money compared to the EPL sides. Even using the best case scenario that the 2nd div even gets a TV deal you are looking at somewhere between $125k - $250k. Even double that and its still bugger all. and you guys are always mentioning South Melbourne and Melb Knights, but what about team 10-12 on that list? Who are they and why would the want to be part of it. Remember when the first A-League TV deal was being bandied around SBS offered to show the games but the FFA had to pay the production costs. Yes it was going to COST the FFA money to run the games, let alone actually derive any income from them.
yet you think the TV networks are gonna say "oh sweet, heres a bunch of money and airtime for Melbourne Knights v North Queensland Fury".

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Its not pie in the sky. Again, I think you've misunderstood me. There are 2 separate issues - $$$ required in the 2nd division and $$$ required to be competitive in the HAL. The TV deals dictate this. ATM the HAL clubs get millions from the TV deal. A promoted team would get a slice of the pie from the HAL deal which would cover the salary cap payments - enough to make them competitive like us or the CCM in terms of a squad. The fact that most own their own stadiums put them in front of us as they have more revenue streams.

In the 2nd division, I'm not suggesting that they'll get a big TV deal. Just enough to cover travel would be sufficient imo. Teams then operate on existing budgets, with the additional income they will be able to attract from sponsors in a televised, national setting. IMO this would be enough for the above-mentioned clubs to find a budget of close to or for some exceeding $1M. The added excitement of potential promotion would undoubtedly increase crowds for these clubs.

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Originally Posted by plague

So heres what im reading you guys think is plausible.
Clubs join the 2nd div.
Clubs pay a licence fee.
Clubs pay significant money up front to get stadiums compliant.
From season 2 clubs will always be up against a former A-League team that will have a significant financial advantage over them.

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No. I don't. Clubs join 2nd division, pay reduced licence fee. Only join 2nd division based upon facilities criteria ensuring minimum standard. Relegation to be phased in after few years, including years of expansion up to about 14-16 teams in HAL.


[QUOTE=plague;165430]

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Originally Posted by plague

I think a lot of you on here have a very romantic idea of how football could be in Australia. I wish it was too, but the simple fact is you aren't dealing in reality.
Whoever was talking about Japans 100 year plan had the right idea, because its gonna take a shitload of time and money, and at the moment it aint here.

Continually thinking the failures of the past will somehow be the way of the future astounds me.

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We've never had P/R, not even in the NSL. A semi pro/minimum pro 2nd division is being realist. Its not pie in the sky, or romantic - I am a realist and a pessimist if anything. The time has come that we bite the bullet and say that the HAL in its current form has served its purpose of mainstreaming the game, but we need to draw upon our grassroots potential to take the game further. A closed comp of 10 clubs, with 80% of the clubs being under financial stress or making huge losses is not sustainable. A bigger TV deal will come from more teams, and drawing upon the existing grassroots will do that, whilst providing a pathway for more players and more fans.

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Originally Posted by plague

oh no doubt.
would be interesting with CEO's/coaches etc too. Clubs decide to hang onto to someone earning wages they maybe can't afford vs saving the cash and going with a cheaper option but lessening the chances of going back up.

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That's up to the clubs and their owners/committees.

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Originally Posted by RAM

I think you apply the FFA Cup standard across the board. Expecting everyone to play at Suncorp or other large stadiums with no atmosphere is counterproductive imo.

As long as there is sufficient seating in a grandstand and lighting to FFA Cup levels, then this should be enough imo.

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OK firstly cheers for your responses. It def cleared things up as your answers in regards to the Fury dudes plan makes way more sense to me rather than a straight up promotion relegation.

I def disagree though in terms of stadiums. I can't see any way in Griffs green earth that the FFA let anyway play at a "suburban" looking ground.
My dream is for company owned, Bluetongue sized shared stadiums (with 4 sides.....and less gypos) especially in the big cities that multiple teams can share. Then piggyback onto the big stadium for your derby/finals etc etc.

Its def been a focus of MLS for teams to own their own homes and they are built to a league standard. It also means long term thinking and money. But as I've noted elsewhere, team owners aint gonna invest massive amounts of money in stadiums with limited guarantee of being in the comp.

speaking of stadiums. Gypoland cost $28m (in 2000 $) to build and seats 20,000.
would love to see FFA/Melbourne clubs sit down see if they could pull a similar venture off.

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Originally Posted by plague

OK firstly cheers for your responses. It def cleared things up as your answers in regards to the Fury dudes plan makes way more sense to me rather than a straight up promotion relegation.

I def disagree though in terms of stadiums. I can't see any way in Griffs green earth that the FFA let anyway play at a "suburban" looking ground.
My dream is for company owned, Bluetongue sized shared stadiums (with 4 sides.....and less gypos) especially in the big cities that multiple teams can share. Then piggyback onto the big stadium for your derby/finals etc etc.

Its def been a focus of MLS for teams to own their own homes and they are built to a league standard. It also means long term thinking and money. But as I've noted elsewhere, team owners aint gonna invest massive amounts of money in stadiums with limited guarantee of being in the comp.

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The US is much bigger market with much more money.

I think its unrealistic to expect every club in our top 2 divisions to have a stadium like Bluetongue. I would have a slightly tweaked Knights Stadium as the minimum standard for HAL and a Broadmeadow standard for the 2nd division.

The money, nor population, simply isn't here in Australia to demand or require such stadia. 8,000 people at Hunter Stadium is a shit atmosphere, but 8,000 at Hindmarsh or Knights stadium and the place is rocking. Smaller grounds (and more profitable!!) make for better atmosphere and better TV. Sure you can move bigger games to bigger stadiums. But a capacity of 30,000 or 20,000 is pointless for a second division club, and most HAL clubs at the moment.

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Originally Posted by plague

speaking of stadiums. Gypoland cost $28m (in 2000 $) to build and seats 20,000.
would love to see FFA/Melbourne clubs sit down see if they could pull a similar venture off.

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What about AAMI Park?

I do no know why you are arguing over stadiums. All the old NSL sides have got decent enough stadiums for the 2nd tier level. Most of them if not all of them can play out of the A League stadiums if they were promoted. Eg Sydney Utd have a decent ground, if they were promoted they could play out of Parramatta. The Melbourne sides would have the same, eg Knights stadium is ok for 2nd tier, they could play out of AAMI park if promoted. Same goes for the Brisbane sides etc. In fact I can't think of any side in the 2nd tier that would have a problem with stadiums to play at.

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Originally Posted by RAM

The US is much bigger market with much more money.

I think its unrealistic to expect every club in our top 2 divisions to have a stadium like Bluetongue. I would have a slightly tweaked Knights Stadium as the minimum standard for HAL and a Broadmeadow standard for the 2nd division.

The money, nor population, simply isn't here in Australia to demand or require such stadia. 8,000 people at Hunter Stadium is a shit atmosphere, but 8,000 at Hindmarsh or Knights stadium and the place is rocking. Smaller grounds (and more profitable!!) make for better atmosphere and better TV. Sure you can move bigger games to bigger stadiums. But a capacity of 30,000 or 20,000 is pointless for a second division club, and most HAL clubs at the moment.

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I understand the US population etc, my comment was based on the governing body saying, "you want in our comp, here is the criteria". whatever the specifics are is malleable, but there is a set structure. Also the american clubs have a much bigger representation running the game, so yes they are acting for the most part in self interest, but every bit of success means success for everyone, and thats not a bad model. the biggest gripe against the FFA from the likes of Tinks, Sage, Palmer was the lack of representation they had in governing the game they bankrolled. and as much as a few of those blokes were utter shitcunce, i always thoughts that point was legit.

I used Bluetongue as it was a much more economical stadium to build. if i remember correctly AAMI was a very expensive place. And yes id be happy to see every Melbourne team at all levels play out of AAMI, but my point again was it would be better to have a dedicated, federation/team owned venue.

heck, the AFL just shelled out $200m to own Etihad just so their clubs had more stability and lower costs using the joint. and yes soccer doesnt have that sort of money, but its more the mindset that i love. the AFL could have easily said "too bad, do your own rent deal and if you die then who cares", but they use their money much more wisely. plus they use their club boardmembers clout to lobby governments for money. the AFL is smart man, theres a lot of lessons that can be learned from them.

yeah id love to see Northern NSW build a No#2 oval sized stadium all seater 12k capacity play all inner city NPL games there and the Jets play all non finals games there. NPL sides get the revenue on matchday and pay a % for maintenance rather than every club in the city trying to keep a ground up to standard for 10/12 games a year.

well, id love to see someone think of an idea like that. Rugby seemed to pull it off pretty quickly, surely the resources/minds of FFA/NNSW?council/state govt could think of something?

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Originally Posted by De-Champ

I do no know why you are arguing over stadiums. All the old NSL sides have got decent enough stadiums for the 2nd tier level. Most of them if not all of them can play out of the A League stadiums if they were promoted. Eg Sydney Utd have a decent ground, if they were promoted they could play out of Parramatta. The Melbourne sides would have the same, eg Knights stadium is ok for 2nd tier, they could play out of AAMI park if promoted. Same goes for the Brisbane sides etc. In fact I can't think of any side in the 2nd tier that would have a problem with stadiums to play at.

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i wouldn't say we are 'arguing' about stadiums. people def have different ideas on what would be acceptable for a national comp,and i can see their point. and yes i absolutely think all teams in capital cities should play out of generic stadiums like AAMI. But they need to realise they start paying BIG rents in that case and all im saying is that i wish long term the FFA and clubs pooled their resources and built their own idea of 'AAMI park' to make the individual clubs more cost effective.

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Originally Posted by monz6

Team who comes first in div 2 vs team who comes last in div one over two legs. Winner plays next season in div one and loser in div 2. Just a thought

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1st annd last direct.... 2nd and 2nd last playoff..

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Xamax Stadium 10 000 seat... shopping center incoorporated. Hey lowy Westfields... lol


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FC Thun - 10 000. Just outside of town. walking distance from trainstation.. Shopping center next door.. Massive Parking underground

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Tissot Arena...

Multi use.. Ice hockey rinks and shopping. Ice Hockey Stadium.... Football has space 5200 with options can be extended to 10000

Above posts.. stadium can be small but yet professional.. (FFA would approve)

Plus if can build a new stadium in switzerland with the little amount of space we have.. im sure there are options in Aus....



Promotion and Relegation has to come for the simple reason of competition... (the league cannot develop if that doesnt come in..) This isnt Rugby league or AFL that the game is really only played here. thus the best talent stays here and thus the competition can improve...

Also, why not a-league youth teams in this 2nd div? Obvs no promotion but after the fury 6 year plan if we have 14-16 a-league teams if half of them want to have a youth team then let them play your top npl teams. Maybe mandate every youth team has to be in the lower divisions within 10 years and by then with the 'smaller' npl clubs you've got a ready made 3rd division.


Spitballing.

Miron Bleiberg leading the charge for a 2nd Brisbane team.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/...3c2ce7e884c9c1

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Originally Posted by The Postman

Miron Bleiberg leading the charge for a 2nd Brisbane team.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/...3c2ce7e884c9c1

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Not sure if Miron and his band of bogans can handle another team. They're all the "fkn smashim" crowd

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Originally Posted by hawk

Not sure if Miron and his band of bogans can handle another team. They're all the "fkn smashim" crowd

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Completely disagree.
There is quite a lot of Football fans in Brisbane that felt disconnected from Hollandia since the beginning of the A-League and that has only grown even more since the Barkies.

IMO Miron and his cohort should jump in bed with Strikers as I see them as the only viable option as a second Brisbane side.