2024 Premier Youth Leagues

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Originally Posted by sapdad

I am genuinely surprised by many of the posts on this thread but this recent trend of there somehow being a overwhelming opinion that if your kid is playing NPL youth then the next step is the EPL is silly.I know my 10 years pales in comparison to some on here but in that whole time across several roles in several NPL and NL1 clubs that attitude just doesnt exist.The expectation had always been that the best kids in the 'lower' teams would fancy themselves worthy of a trial at the 'higher' clubs,and that the very best would end up in spots like TSP and Jets youth and after 10 years of being in the very top % of players they may make local seniors.Ive definitely seen more of a promise of kids playing seniors in NL1 but to be fair they seem to provide those opportunities.Kids just want to play and do their best,parents want the best for their kids.If one or two in amongst the hundreds are over the top then welcome to every other occupation and sport in life.Im more of the opinion that theres quite a few contributors on here who arent actually involved in the current NPL youth set up and are just projecting a bit based on their own perception.Again,Ive only been around for 10 years and maybe things were bad back in their day,but todays set up just isnt like that.Besides,Ive spoken before about the worst parents out there are the ones abusing refs who dont even know the rules so why anyone listening to them about a kids talent level has rocks in their heads anyway.Another point on referees,my oldest always says the worst spectators hes ever had have been community kids,then JDL.NPL youth for him is way more enjoyable.Lets just let the kids play and do their best ok.

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Parents not happy with terrible quality referring isnt the main problem.
Putting kid refs into NPL where they have no idea by NNSW is the problem and must be fixed. Rather have no ref or club senior ref tbh than some that ive seen.

I found that many parents have an inflated image of their players, home bias is normal. I've seen some lads labelled as the best in the comp but i cannot see it.

I'd rather leave the labels out and just let it all unfold and let the kids sort themselves out.

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Originally Posted by finzee

Parents not happy with terrible quality referring isnt the main problem.
Putting kid refs into NPL where they have no idea by NNSW is the problem and must be fixed. Rather have no ref or club senior ref tbh than some that ive seen.

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Yeah,you dont want no refs or club senior,you only have to go watch JDL games where parents and coaches are in charge and its generally a bigger farce and causes more arguments than 'neutral' refs.And everyone can scream at me til they are blue in the face but 95% of the crowd at a local game dont have the faintest clue on the rules or how they are supposed to be interpreted.Its our endless debate on here and I dont disagree with refs being put in too early.But until we get a good crop spending 3-4 years at that level without dropping out its going to continue the same cycle.Again I can only speak from my kids experience but I think the standard is a lot better than people want to admit.Maybe I can be the first parent on here who posts that not only are his kids the greatest players ever,but they are the greatest referees ever too.Thats some major chest beating haha.For the record though I dont think that!!!

So that the end of Rd 1 for PLY

Only a heap of catchup games to go before they go into the 3 divs. Wonder if theyre already sorted?

(almost time for relegation - current standings...55MP is 1st half season completion (Div1)

Div 1
1. NCF 112Pts ? (55MP)
2. Olympic 91Pts ? (48MP)
3. Edgeworth 88Pts ? (45MP)
4. Magic 79Pts ? (40MP)
5. Jaffas 76Pts ? (45MP)
6. Maitland 67Pts ? (53MP)
7. Lake Macquarie 61Pts ? (40MP)
8. Valentine 57Pts ? (40MP)
9. Weston 45Pts ? (43MP)
10. New Lambton 33Pts ? (34MP)
11. Mid Coast 31Pts ? (38MP)
12. Cooks Hill 16Pts ? (43MP)


Div 2
1. Charlestown 90Pts ? (38MP)
2. South Cardiff 84Pts ? (41MP)
3. Rosebuds 69Pts ? (34MP)
4. NIAS 65Pts ? (32MP)
5. Belswans 64Pts ? (35MP)
6. West Wallsend 60Pts ? (38MP)
7. Kahibah 51Pts ? (38MP)
8. Cessnock 37Pts ? (38MP)
9. Thornton 28Pts ? (40MP)
10. Singleton 18Pts ? (34MP)
11. Toronto 18Pts ? (38MP)
12. VACANT

I don?t think they have captured all the games from NIAS Vs Charlestown

Nearly there - (a long one apologies)

1. NCF ~ 112Pts (55MP)
2. Edgeworth ~ 94Pts (50MP)
3. Olympic ~ 91Pts (48MP)
4. Magic ~ 89Pts (45MP)
5. Jaffas ~ 76Pts (45MP)
6. Lake Macquarie ~ 76Pts (45MP)
7. Maitland ~ 67Pts (53MP)
8. Valentine ~ 66 Pts (45MP)
9. Weston ~ 45Pts (43MP)
10. New Lambton ~ 37Pts (44MP)
11. Mid Coast ~ 31Pts (38MP)
12. Cooks Hill ~ 16Pts (43MP)


The big surprise packet is Lake Macquarie, separated from Jaffas only by Goal Difference +36 Vs +12
I think the other surprise is Maitland seems to not be quite as strong this year, having only 2 matches left to go before the relegation happens, they are likely to finish in the final safe spot.

Bottom 4 have a huge task to save themselves now, but still possible for all but Cooks Hill. A shame for few high flying teams in those 4.

Goal difference by club is also interesting to look at:

1. Magic +88
2. NCF +70
3. Edgeworth +65
4. Olympic +63
5. Jaffas +36
6. Lake Macquarie +12
7. Maitland +5
8. Valentine -2
9. Weston -50
10. Mid Coast -74
11. New Lambton -79
12. Cooks Hill -129

I think there's a good case that the league structure should be 3 divisions of 8. (The Top) 8 teams/club play each other 3 times, with Promotion/Relegation at season?s end 1/2 up:1/2 down

This would achieve the aim of tighter games with a higher standard (which is the aim of pro/rel).

Help to consolidate the high performing groups into the appropriate level so we don?t end up with good teams being relegated based on club championship results mid season.

Save some confidence of kids getting smacked playing in an inappropriate level for how the club is performing; and importantly allows a team to be built to play a certain grade of football for the entire year (I?m sure Cooks Hill found it very hard last year to attract players, with parents realising how tough a season it would turn out to be, having only just qualified for reintegration into tier 1 during phase2)

(Would also help Northern create a schedule without having to recalculate a draw mid-season and the delays it brings about).

(N.B. tables above, I?ve manually added the Edgeworth V Valentine U14s result from yesterday as it hasn't been updated, noting it was a 1-1 draw)

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Originally Posted by WOW2.0

Nearly there - (a long one apologies)

1. NCF ~ 112Pts (55MP)
2. Edgeworth ~ 94Pts (50MP)
3. Olympic ~ 91Pts (48MP)
4. Magic ~ 89Pts (45MP)
5. Jaffas ~ 76Pts (45MP)
6. Lake Macquarie ~ 76Pts (45MP)
7. Maitland ~ 67Pts (53MP)
8. Valentine ~ 66 Pts (45MP)
9. Weston ~ 45Pts (43MP)
10. New Lambton ~ 37Pts (44MP)
11. Mid Coast ~ 31Pts (38MP)
12. Cooks Hill ~ 16Pts (43MP)

The big surprise packet is Lake Macquarie, separated from Jaffas only by Goal Difference +36 Vs +12
I think the other surprise is Maitland seems to not be quite as strong this year, having only 2 matches left to go before the relegation happens, they are likely to finish in the final safe spot.

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Top 8 basically set.

No surprise with Jaffas youth falling off. They have some top players in all grades but too many pretender coaches thinking theyre experts but not much idea since H left.

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Originally Posted by WOW2.0

A shame for few high flying teams in those 4.

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Of the 20 teams in the bottom 4 clubs only 2 of them are in the top 4 of their age group and they are both 4th.Hardly 'high flying'.Youth football should be all about development over chest beating and tin trophies.Widening the pool is the only way to improve the overall talent level its not even a debate.

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Originally Posted by sapdad

Of the 20 teams in the bottom 4 clubs only 2 of them are in the top 4 of their age group and they are both 4th.Hardly 'high flying'.Youth football should be all about development over chest beating and tin trophies.Widening the pool is the only way to improve the overall talent level its not even a debate.

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widening the pool does not increase the amount of talent in an area. You only have to look at the girls competition to see that and then the step down in community there is chalk and cheese, the game is so much less physical it's almost not even the same sport in the youth age groups.

When your kid comes out of the other side of this system, you'll wonder if there is was any point in even trying to fix it; and and then you just get on with your life and watch all the parents from 9s to 13s yell and rant at each other all over again and because you no longer have any buy in to it you'll either find it incredibly funny, or sad.

?High flying? as in top 8 and outperforming the rest of their club.
Noting for each ?loser?, there is a ?beneficiary? team whose been saved?
The widest of those gaps is one of the below 4th places (with the lowest number of completed games) loses their place in favour of 11th place.

To me, these teams have justified a position in tier 1 for the 2nd phase above the ?beneficiary? teams.
Their relegation only damages the clubs they belong to as they will find it hard to maintain those teams and build success through them.

Obviously pre-rel by team is the ideal standard?but without that, at least playing out a full season is the next best option, and then kids can find the clubs at the level they want to play at the following season (if they can). Would also give clubs to turn their season around that they really don?t have in the current format (can imagine how demotivated some teams are, knowing club wide they have been ?let down?.

If the aim of pro/rel is to promote a high standard of competitive games appropriately sized tiers?distribution of player and coaching talent then surely it?s the best way forward to achieve that goal


Current ?Losers? list (6 teams Div 1, Div 2->3 probably a similar number haven?t checked yet)
U14s
Loser:
New Lambton 8th

U15s
Loser: Weston 4th

U16s
Loser(s):
Midcoast 4th
New Lambton 7th
Weston 8th

U18s
Loser New Lambton 5th


ALSO: absolutely it should still be about development. Part of that development is found within the standard of competition the kids find themselves in, tough games at the appropriate level this will help drive up the standards even more, and proper pro/rel will help with a pathway for those kids, with known boundaries when you agree to join a club.
Also, when you say to ?widen the pool?, why not just have 1 tier with (currently) 23 teams?that?s the widest pool we can have, I can't see how that helps anyone

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Originally Posted by Addios

They have some top players in all grades but too many pretender coaches thinking theyre experts but not much idea since H left.

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Richard once told me, he doesn't have the best coaches, when you see the level of micromanagement, it's little wonder why.

No one should set themselves up as the indispensible man...we're all just little cogs in the grand scheme of things

For context
Jaffas current positions:
13s - 6th
14s - 7th
15s - 6th
16s - 3rd
18s - 7th

...I don't know where they were last year or the year prior (when Richard was there)...other than last year those 14s were in the GF.

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Originally Posted by KITZ

When your kid comes out of the other side of this system, you'll wonder if there is was any point in even trying to fix it; and and then you just get on with your life and watch all the parents from 9s to 13s yell and rant at each other all over again and because you no longer have any buy in to it you'll either find it incredibly funny, or sad.

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Pretty much. My daughter had a cracking run then said this game sucks at 15. I wish I had of paid a bit more attention though. I didnt realise there was a massive pathway for them.

Also congrats to the 14s Edgys coaches who lost their sh*t over another physical but quality tackle. One goose getting a red card. Edgy are the new Magic.

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Originally Posted by sapdad

Of the 20 teams in the bottom 4 clubs only 2 of them are in the top 4 of their age group and they are both 4th.Hardly 'high flying'.Youth football should be all about development over chest beating and tin trophies.Widening the pool is the only way to improve the overall talent level its not even a debate.

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Id like to understand how widening the pool is the way to improve as it dilutes the talent across the clubs as the Jets and TSP exist for a reason so that a group of kids get to play at an elevated level every week and also train with that group. As we are well aware alot of the Jets kids arent the most talented but you can visibly see the 4 sessions per week plus games has lifted their ability. You could bring in any of the top 20 players from the NPL and over time with the elevated training schedule and constant physicality the kids grow.

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Originally Posted by Retired01

Id like to understand how widening the pool is the way to improve as it dilutes the talent across the clubs as the Jets and TSP exist for a reason so that a group of kids get to play at an elevated level every week and also train with that group. As we are well aware alot of the Jets kids arent the most talented but you can visibly see the 4 sessions per week plus games has lifted their ability. You could bring in any of the top 20 players from the NPL and over time with the elevated training schedule and constant physicality the kids grow.

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I posted some explanations yesterday but deleted them after realising we have gone through this 1000 times before and it always comes back to the same place.Anyway,I'll try one more time.You just explained it yourself.The Jets draw from the TSP,the TSP draws from the top clubs,the top clubs draw from the lower clubs,the lower clubs draw from community and so on.The more kids have access to good community teams with good coaching the better that level gets,the better that level gets the better kids are coming into 3rd tier NPL,the better the 2nd and 3rd tier are the better the top teams get when they sign players,the better the top teams are in NPL the better quality of TSP and eventually the Jets.You are all looking at it from a 1 season sample.My whole point is blending the levels as often as possible (mid season mix up/knockout cup/plate) the more often kids 'down the bottom' play against kids further up the chain the better the long term overall group.This is why Japan has a 50 year plan,this is why France decided to raid African colonies for talent.Putting up roadblocks to development in the name of continually protecting the top never grows the overall level.Someone else mentioned the womens game yesterday and its also a great example of getting more kids into better environments and watching the whole game grow at the highest level.When my oldest started JDL there were 3 zone girls teams.The Jets drew from there.Now,are the Jets women and girls youth better because clubs have great girl specific JDL programs?The answer is yes.But if we just left it at 3 zone teams then community then we dont get the improvement.Hence,a wider pool of talent has eventually improved the highest level.Thats my point.

Widening the pool of talent also applied to JDL being run at more clubs now.If clubs like New Lambton,Cooks Hill,South Cardiff,Stags etc were not included (because 'good kids' can just go play for Magic/Edgy etc) then there would be a lot of players missing from todays tier one clubs, TSP and Jets.If you dont believe me then go ask the Jets and TSP kids where they started their youth football journey.You may be shocked that they started further down the ladder but because there was a path, and there were enough opportunities then they got their shot.Again,thats my point.

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Originally Posted by sapdad

Widening the pool of talent also applied to JDL being run at more clubs now.If clubs like New Lambton,Cooks Hill,South Cardiff,Stags etc were not included (because 'good kids' can just go play for Magic/Edgy etc) then there would be a lot of players missing from todays tier one clubs, TSP and Jets.If you dont believe me then go ask the Jets and TSP kids where they started their youth football journey.You may be shocked that they started further down the ladder but because there was a path, and there were enough opportunities then they got their shot.Again,thats my point.

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So you arent actually increasing the size of the pool you are just defining a heirachy system and want to get better coaches, people and scouts to bring them through the levels. Your wording led me to believe you wanted the top tiers to include more teams which in my opinion dilutes the talent and therefore the quality and learning opportunities for the top kids.

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Originally Posted by Retired01

So you arent actually increasing the size of the pool you are just defining a heirachy system and want to get better coaches, people and scouts to bring them through the levels. Your wording led me to believe you wanted the top tiers to include more teams which in my opinion dilutes the talent and therefore the quality and learning opportunities for the top kids.

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Sort of,Im advocating for more spots at the bottom and a more accessible pathway to the top in the hope that long term there is enough talent to warrant more teams at the highest level.I believe the older system closed off those opportunities where as merging the groups and opening up knockout cups provides those opportunites.So overall the pool becomes bigger.

Heres a good example of the progress some clubs are making,Stags are back in youth for the first time in a while.The did a great job to fill 5 teams,from my understanding the 13s and 14s have a fair few of their own JDL kids,where as the other grades were a mix of community and trialists.Here are there results going into the last round.
18's - 0 wins/zero draws.
16's - 0 wins/zero draws.
15's - 0 wins/zero draws.
14's - 2 wins/3 draws.
13's - 4 wins/zero draws.
To me that says that Toronto having a JDL program has given their youth a fair shot entering 13's.Next year the 18's will drop off and hopefully another good JDL crop comes through and get even better results.If Toronto didnt have JDL (like they didnt for the early years) would their youth now be getting the results? Would those kids be even playing?Who knows.But by providing the opportunities they have developed some talent and its not a dumb notion that within a short space of time Toronto could be back to being one of the premier youth programs.That can only be a good thing.And before anyone says it,their surrounding areas (edgeworth/lakes/central coast united) are all going great guns so its not as if they have stolen anyone elses players to build.

That is great, but what I suggested wouldn't have anything change in that regard...I never suggested to change or remove JDL...just that the next phase, the premier Boys League, should have appropriate tiering and for an entire season...this will help ambitious clubs to build upon success at the appropriate level they are currently at.

It is worth remembering too, people talk a lot about their not being enough talented kids. Perhaps worse, the lack of quality coaches to meet the needs of clubs and kids...how many quality coaches disappear each year after their kid is done, etc...we should try to keep more of those people involved wherever we can, IMO :)

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Originally Posted by WOW2.0

That is great, but what I suggested wouldn't have anything change in that regard...I never suggested to change or remove JDL...just that the next phase, the premier Boys League, should have appropriate tiering and for an entire season...this will help ambitious clubs to build upon success at the appropriate level they are currently at.

It is worth remembering too, people talk a lot about their not being enough talented kids. Perhaps worse, the lack of quality coaches to meet the needs of clubs and kids...how many quality coaches disappear each year after their kid is done, etc...we should try to keep more of those people involved wherever we can, IMO :)

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Some good coaches are not wanted because they arent in the "inner circle" of the club. two way sword at times. Ive seen some awful coaches retained at NPL level even now. Easier to walk away and let the train crash happen.

Decoupling - looks like Weston, Midcoast, Cooks hill and New Lambton will drop out.

Hearing players have already jumped ship from one club going down. What's everyone thoughts on how this i benefiting the youth development?