As sapdad suggested. No idea so Jog on muppetQuote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal222
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As sapdad suggested. No idea so Jog on muppetQuote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal222
I have a simple football related question which I hope its allowed on this non football forum.
How do parents, coaches etc feel the transition from running 8 teams in the member zones Hunter Valley, Macquarie, EJ and Macquarie with the clubs underpinning this to the clubs running the whole SAP programme has gone?
I was sceptical and for me the jury is still out. I feel the clubs are still underprepared with standard of coaching, the size and work implementing the programme is far bigger than what they expected and Northern are a shambles with organising it which really doesn't help the clubs. I also think when clubs get quality coaches on board the players will migrate there creating their own member zones with the rest being cast aside.
Would parents be happier to go back to the old system or do they think in time this is the best way?
Unfortunately for the pair of muppets being yourself and sapdad, the no idea part sits firmly with you. Until RH became involved the Jaffas had very little interest in the SAP program.Quote:
Originally Posted by samcan
I answer this based on my own experience with the club SAP as our family never had any experience with the Zone SAP.Quote:
Originally Posted by THEBIGCHEESE
The main difference seems to be:
- Club SAP develops more players in preparation for NPL
- Zone SAP concentrated on developing a smaller amount of hand picked players
Whilst I agree in principle that the Zone SAP was more focused on developing the best kids that could be found within the zones, it did leave kids behind that could have benefited from more focused training. Not every kid develops technically or physically at the same pace. By the time 13's NPL came around, how many of those kids have been caught up to physically but are then only at an advantage due to technique and game understanding? How many kids stayed in the Zone SAP because they got in early rather than being one of the best players?
I've heard rumours that NNSWF are looking to reduce teams to one per age group which should stem some of the dilution of talent in the players and coaches.
Ultimately though with SAP now being a 2 tier (or pool A/B) structure NNSWF should be looking at tiered payment models as well (look at FNSW as an example) which should dictate the quality of club support, TD's, Coaching, etc you are paying for.
It’s way too early to make a call. We always want instant results but change takes time. It might take 10 years for this program to start showing signs of real progress. The best thing we could do for our youth is develop an Australian way of playing football and stop copying from other countries curriculums that we have no chance of emulating.Quote:
Originally Posted by THEBIGCHEESE
Dont feed the Arse222 troll. Clearly has no idea.
Current system is quite bloated and has dilution of talent from good to poor. Older metro system couldn't attract the best either even though players were very few. I sometimes think TSP coaches are clutching at straws when trying to pick our best players let alone JDL clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by THEBIGCHEESE
Not sure where we go from here. One team per club for a start but even that has repercussions at 12's when recruiting for 13s.
JDL - 2 Tiers, All NBN Hitfm clubs enter. NBN clubs start in the top tier and relegation on club championship points format. Let clubs manipulate the nnsw "Dutch mantra" to suit club culture of playing style
The fact is with more kids involved the higher the chance of finding the few gems and the rest developing better without it. The less kids involved the smaller number of developed players aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by THEBIGCHEESE
Any suggestion that we need to start having club championships from U9s is absurd. However, I will say that throughout the year teams do need to be playing against teams of their own ability and this needs to be assessed. Northern knows this but can't be bothered doing it properly. We saw that with the shambles of using the 5 aside courts and then ignored the results anyway, was nothing more than raising funds for them.
Thanks for the response.
Just being curious now, maybe now SAP has been adopted by the clubs there is a place for the member zones to have their own SAP again for the higher potential players.
Would this
* Provide a platform for the better players to all train together.
* Allow other players at clubs to get more time develop at there own pace.
* Allow a competition which could provide valuable learning.
* Give players extra motivation to achieve success by being selected in the member zones.
* Promoting coaching opportunities and education
If this was in place of the TSP and worked on a 3 month cycle with coaches and TD's providing feedback on the player before inviting them back in or releasing them, TD's of the zones would be expected to visit each club 3 times during this cycle to discuss potential recruitment which is 2 training sessions and a gameday would this be better than the once a year selection by NNSWF who don't attend games?
Take under 12’s for example - around 300 kids playing JDL and 800 playing community.
How can that be considered a ‘talented’ program?
If the clubs stop thinking about the massive money making scheme that it is and we go to one team/club, then we may see more even results with a much better standard of football.
As a community coach and JDL parent, I’ve seen plenty of kids out of that 800 that are also arguably better than quite a number of kids in the 300.
Parents want their kid to be ‘talented’, and if you are willing to pay and trial at every club, most will get a spot.
Let’s take it back to the 80’s when you earnt your spot in a rep team and didn’t pay ridiculous money for the privilege.
150 would be enough for the NPL clubs to draw from for 13’s, but how would they then fund their 1st grade players???
Im still not sure why people keep bringing this point up.No one on here or anyone anywhere in the program that ive met thinks anything differently to this.Of course theres talent across the whole footballing community.JDL is one small part of it.Its a different approach that was taken due to the issues in the old system.No one is calling at talent program, no one thinks of it as an elite program.Its for kids to learn the 4 core skills and springboard that into 13's NPL and hopefully beyond.Thats it.The first crop of those kids will join 13's NPL next year, lets see how many of those kids that want to go on actually do, and if the level of football is increased by this approach.Anyone thinking its an instant fix is kidding themselves.The bar needs to be rising every year and its got to start somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yato
Im a believer in 2 teams per club but understand the argument on both sides.My concern is that after 12's if every club has 22 players to choose from the temptation to want to fill spots is less than if they only had 11 to begin with.Im hopeful it means less player movement and kids who start in a club at 9's may feel more compelled to stay there and not chase a 'better' opportunity elsewhere.Of course some still will, but if the better teams are happy with their 16-18 best kids then theres less reason for them to recruit and weaken the other clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
Its probably not a universal opinion but i also agree with NPL and Hit clubs being seperate.This way it gives kids the knowledge that if they want to play NPL they need to be at an NPL club.New Lambton has been a good example of being good enough to play against anyone the first few years to kids leaving early to try and get in an NPL program.It has left their teams this year to rebuild in a a few ways and its not really fair on the club to develop kids and have them move on half way through.If kids know where they will end up those choices may be made earlier.And its also not a knock on the kids as if they want to play for an NPL team they need to give themselves the best opportunity.
It's hard to make the comparison without considering the age group and individual teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yato
In 9's, the majority of kids are pretty raw and I think outside of the bigger NPL club teams you are probably right.
In the 11's and 12's though then you have to look at individual clubs.
A high achiever in 12's community is going to struggle to get a look in at the top clubs but will probably have a chance at other clubs depending on how well they can trial.
Based on my viewing of a 12A's game a little while ago that ended up 10-0, I didn't see any individuals that stood out head and shoulders above the rest or any that looked like they'd fit right in within a strong SAP team.
nah. The gems will find the top anyway. "Developing" all kids will just mean that all-age can pass better and clubs can make a lot of $$ in the mean time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatscheese
Club championship was an option not an ideal solution.
And Northern have somewhat fixed the inconsistency with the phase 3 draw.
Good to see that clubs who have gone to one team are much more competitiveQuote:
Originally Posted by Aegon
Sorry I meant a community div 12A game.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
If it came across as a call out around clubs with one team that was not my intention.
All good. I didnt take it as a put down for community. I was referring to the positive improvement in JDL teams who have gone to 1 team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegon
I havent seen much community to comment. I wonder if community players actually enjoy not having superstars running through their teams.
You're missing the point, there will be more gems and special gems of higher quality than now. This isn't even my opinion this is based off a 2009 study published by the British Psychological Society looking into more kids doing more of the same activity and how it results in better outcomes not just for the general population but the top marks higher as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
You'd be silly not to look at a couple 12A and 12B teams to potentially take one or two players to trail at NPL clubs, they have the experience on the bigger field. One player who made it through to the second TSP camp came through community, never played Zone SAP and was in a 12B team selected over players who went through the Zone SAP program
which club has had improvement by going to one team?Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
Adamstown, Lake mac, Wallsend to a degree, Weston. Better still go onto the draws from last year to this year ya lazy sodQuote:
Originally Posted by sapdad
Sorry but please excuse me if I read that with the image of an Alf Stewart type old man wagging his finger at me.I genuinely had no idea other than New Lambton and Maitland in 12's going back to 1 team.Hopefully they all find enough extra kids to round out a strong 13's squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
All tongue in cheek. Probably shouldve added the emoji thingy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapdad
But all in all 1 good team is way better than 2 weak ones for game play. But i wonder if 2 team clubs are getting an advantage for squads in 13s and $$$ for paying seniors?
Depends what this SAP/JDL’s aim is.
Is it an elite program? 1 team.
Is it a development program? 2 teams.
The more kids that can be introduced to quality training and receive constructive feedback, the better they should be.
You get lopsided contests in all grades, all ages, that’s part of football. On the right track trying to even out the games.
I still can’t help but think, 85% of the best 100 players will be in the top tier competition. If there’s no JDL, they will be in their inter district teams playing A and B grade.
If there’s a NPL style comp, they’ll be playing that.
If there’s a JDL with 2 teams per club, they’ll be in that
Just calling it something difference.
The positive that I can see from this program is that the coaching seems more structured and with purpose than you’d receive at inter district level (on average). And with 2 teams you can affect and change and develop more players.
Get 2 teams at each club. (Not sure on numbers of clubs and teams so bear with me). Say 20 teams, 10 in a team. 200 kids at SAP Level.
Then onto NPL youth, 10 clubs, say 15 in a squad. 150 players per age. 50 drop out or onto NEWFM etc
From NPL youth, 150 can’t just go into 18s. Let’s say half a squad is promoted from NPL Youth to 18s.
That’s 80 kids into NPL senior set ups. After 1-2 years they can move onto 20s.
Then how many make first grade? Maybe 4? Being generous.
Just very very very rough numbers. But improving the base of the pyramid in SAP a exposure to quality programs can only be a good thing?
There's 27 - 30 teams in each age.
So it's basically, it's A, B, C grade all wrapped into 1 with improved coaching, exorbitant fees and a whole lot of hype.
[QUOTE=Yato;249083]Take under 12’s for example - around 300 kids playing JDL and 800 playing community.
How can that be considered a ‘talented’ program?
If the clubs stop thinking about the massive money making scheme that it is and we go to one team/club, then we may see more even results with a much better standard of football.
As a community coach and JDL parent, I’ve seen plenty of kids out of that 800 that are also arguably better than quite a number of kids in the 300.
Parents want their kid to be ‘talented’, and if you are willing to pay and trial at every club, most will get a spot.
Let’s take it back to the 80’s when you earnt your spot in a rep team and didn’t pay ridiculous money for the privilege.
150 would be enough for the NPL clubs to draw from for 13’s, but how would they then fund their 1st grade players???[/QUOTE]
Sap has been going for what 5 years .. if that's your answer for clubs paying first grade footballers then how did the firstgraders get paid prior to sap ?
Is it improved coaching though? Are not most of the coaches just dads who have done a little course. I’d be interested to see how many coaches have even a c license which of itself doesn’t necessarily make you a good coach just like a drivers license doesn’t make you a good driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
I would replace improved coaching with structured coaching and then we can debate whether that actually helps or hinders development. What will develop kids is playing loads and loads of football every day
I can absolutely vouch for the coaching.Of the coaches my son has had across the program,all but 1 have their C licence (min) and the one who didnt played at a really high level and was brilliant across all the parts of the program.For sure there are dads helping out at some clubs but most take it very very seriously and have high expectations on how their kids are being coached.Id bet that the longer it goes on the more incentive is put out there for coaches to get licences.That doesnt mean everything though ive seen a few coaches with the proper certificates who still have no idea how to teach kids.So it definitiely is a balance but for the most part coaches doing the right thing have been vital to any success the program is to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by BS detecor
For the vast majority it is improved coaching with support from a dedicated SAP co-ordinator or technical director.Quote:
Originally Posted by BS detecor
There is also now a requirement for clubs to train a couple of times at the LMRFF to give NNSWF technical staff the opportunity to see how individual clubs and coaches are coaching the kids with a coach dedicated session after the training is finished. The intention of this is to ensure that the kids are being coached effectively and to provide advice or recommendations on how to improve.
The big difference here is community coaches need to be self motivated, knowledgeable & willing to seek improvement as the oversight and support at most community clubs is negligible.
You have to work for NNSW if you actually believe that crap …Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegon
Didnt say it was great coaching but much improved from a kick and chase non footballing parent even in high junior grades.Quote:
Originally Posted by BS detecor
TDs are deliver greater knowledge to coaches through several clubs that ive seen but that raises another problem. TDs have varying ideas on how to best play the game. One club will ridicule what another does on multiple levels. So how do we know who is getting it right?
I’m all for coming up with a curriculum based on the strengths of young Australian players rather than a European method that doesn’t suit us.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
I don’t see the point of playing 4 passes inside your own penalty area just for the sake of it. I don’t see the need to play 40 passes before having a shot, especially when 20 of them are backwards between the centre backs and the goalkeeper.
Aussies are fit, fast, strong and tall. We should be pressing high and hard against teams that want to play out, win the ball high and play forward quickly to runners in behind. We shouldn’t be afraid of playing crosses into the box. It shouldn’t be considered bad play to score after 3 passes from the keeper. We can’t compete with the technical ability of the European teams.
Just my opinion
For sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by BS detecor
Remember when the Jets youth had to play out EVERY time. farce.
I think we can add 2 midfielders who are agile and technical. Weve had a few players in the past who can add this dimension to complement the tall physical attributes that we mainly have. Our technical deficiencies, imo, come from lack of in game practice. ie. Informal games on non training days.
maybe we dont have that hunger like other countries do?
I agree with everything you are saying here but the point is that none of this applies to what the JDL program is supposed to be about.Kids learn the 4 core skills, take that to their 13's coach and he/she teaches them tactics.JDL ages shouldnt ever be told how to play.they are only supposed to be told how to use their skills in a game situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by BS detecor
and yes that is an ideal world and not one coach in the program does it this way but the hope is that our fit fast strong kids of the next generation are more technically skilled than the previous lot.that way we get the best of both worlds.
You’re questioning Hunger? This forum is full of parents over inflated egos hungry for success, the experts with no ideas and absolutely no clue at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
Unless you were actually trying to be serious then becareful it’s about participation not winning and losing, you wouldn’t want a kid to have to much hunger or drive to improve or you’ll be labelled by the clowns in this forum. Don’t develop our strengths the text book doesn’t agree, don’t promote competition someone might get offended and above all don’t do extra sessions with quality coaches you’ll be a pushy parent. NNSW promote quantity over quality, appeal to the masses all in the aim of revenue.
Over to the muppets
Not the parents hunger, the kids. How many are really into it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Isthisforreal
It's just much easier for Ozies to impress the mates by jamming a youtube channel with kickflips and wearing red speshay jogs then try to master this game.
I lol’d I’m sad to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by traffic light
If not the above then more than happy to just watch big units run into each other for 80minutes.
it appears more changes in the JDL coaching space with a club recently losing there TD after being hung out to dry by one of his coaches, can anyone confirm?
Absolutely no idea - Haven't heard of any TD changes since Maitland's earlier in the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAP SUPER COACH
Obviously too late for this year but I think most would agree that the phases and structure of the JDL this year has been disappointing to say the least. what is everyones thoughts on as a minimum that teams play for points in Phase 3 with the last weekend being a knockout. Think it would be great for these talented kids to experience the challenges faced with a win or a loss as long as its managed well - maybe NNSW could use their gradings as a way to measure and set up different pools of teams for this stage.
It already exists.Its called the U/12 Interdistrict comp.You should sign your kid up for that if thats what youre after.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAP SUPER COACH