The Politics/Religion/Conspiracies Deathmatch Thread

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Originally Posted by belchardo

I have a fundamental problem with the "debt is bad" philosophy in both parties at the moment.

if I'm building an asset today that will last for say 100 years, it will generally outlast all but the newest babies, therefore future generations will be the beneficiaries of the asset. it therefore seems reasonable to me that the future generations help to pay for the asset, which can only be done through the raising of debt (with the future generations, including myself, into the future paying taxes to reduce the debt over time). it appears to me that neither party thinks it is reasonable (saddling our kids and grandkids with debt was a common theme in the past few elections).

I laugh (or is it cry?) whenever I hear the libs going on about debt and deficit while they are simultaneously saddling our kids and grandkids with the biggest liability imaginable - uncontrolled climate change.

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Taxes do not fund government spending in a modern monetary economy where the government is the monopolist supplier of a fiat currency.

In other words the government does not have a budget constraint in terms of its own money.

The government can afford to build anything it wants as long as the costs are denominated in their own currency.

The constraint is only on the availability of goods and services denominated in that currency available for purchase.

Here is the reason why federal governments crap on so much about a surplus budget being a good thing:

If the non-government sector wishes to save then the government MUST have a Budget Deficit.

Hence, if the Government sector is in surplus then the non-goverment sector must be in deficit - No exceptions because Debits always equal credits under accrual accounting rules.

The reason why both major parties desire to run a surplus budget is because they want the private domestic sector to spend more than they earn.

Reason: For people to spend more than they earn they need to obtain credit -Hello Banks - Hello Bank share prices rising.

Both major parties are unfortunately captured by the financial sector in this country and that is why they seek to run a surplus.

Note also: If governments continually run surpluses then it is IMPOSSIBLE for the non-government sector to save because:

Government surplus = non-government deficit.

If you add an external account to the identity then it gets even worse as Australia has had a current account deficit throughout much of its existence due to the majority of our big players being foreign owned. THis is shown as the net income component in the National Accounts - and another reason why the so called mining boon was only of benefit to a selct few rather than the entire population as the Gina's and Andrews of this country try and tell us.

My view on a few things in dot point form.

1. A lot of the problems in the Australian economy at the moment was caused by the Liberal Government having a policy of dig baby dig at the expense of the rest of the economy. What this has meant is that many businesses who compete for labour have to raise wages to an unsustainable level to compete. This is a reason why infrastructure are so ****ing expensive because they generally use the same labour pool as the mining construction industry.

2. The Liberal government introduced some really ****ing stupid welfare payments. I'm from background where earning 40k makes you rich (well it used to) and you got nothing from the government. Now look at it.

3. Minimum wage is too high. What this has meant is that many former occupations have now become lifetime careers. Where as before a job at Coles, being a bartender or other historically low payed jobs were gateways to better employment, now they are fully fledged careers. Coincidently it's also a reason why youth unemployment is so high. Speaking to friends in Germany about how much they could earn simply working in a pub. They laughed and said we are ****ing idiots.

4. Due to OH&S, Union and business group nepotism workforce entry requirements are a ****ing joke. Just go through a job add and look at the "additional" certificates/cards required. Even for ****ing mundane low skilled jobs.

5. We are a ****ing nanny state. Too many people, especially unelected people are decision makers.

6. There is too much tax concessions for big business and things like negative gearing.

7. GST is too low.

8. University education is too expensive.

9. Our property market is ****ing way over priced and due for a major correction or a complete collapse into a pile of shit.

10. Our electoral system is prone to pork barrelling. That NSW government announcement yesterday is a good example. 20 billion for Sydney and what does Newcastle/Hunter get?

11. Due to historically having government owned monopolies, once privatised prices go to commercial rates but there is still no competition.

12. Coles/Woolworths

13. Just look at us. Look at how rich we are compared to other nations. Then look at our shit poor public transportation, roads and other shit.

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Originally Posted by Skirt Boy

My view on a few things in dot point form.

1. A lot of the problems in the Australian economy at the moment was caused by the Liberal Government having a policy of dig baby dig at the expense of the rest of the economy. What this has meant is that many businesses who compete for labour have to raise wages to an unsustainable level to compete. This is a reason why infrastructure are so ****ing expensive because they generally use the same labour pool as the mining construction industry.

2. The Liberal government introduced some really ****ing stupid welfare payments. I'm from background where earning 40k makes you rich (well it used to) and you got nothing from the government. Now look at it.

3. Minimum wage is too high. What this has meant is that many former occupations have now become lifetime careers. Where as before a job at Coles, being a bartender or other historically low payed jobs were gateways to better employment, now they are fully fledged careers. Coincidently it's also a reason why youth unemployment is so high. Speaking to friends in Germany about how much they could earn simply working in a pub. They laughed and said we are ****ing idiots.

4. Due to OH&S, Union and business group nepotism workforce entry requirements are a ****ing joke. Just go through a job add and look at the "additional" certificates/cards required. Even for ****ing mundane low skilled jobs.

5. We are a ****ing nanny state. Too many people, especially unelected people are decision makers.

6. There is too much tax concessions for big business and things like negative gearing.

7. GST is too low.

8. University education is too expensive.

9. Our property market is ****ing way over priced and due for a major correction or a complete collapse into a pile of shit.

10. Our electoral system is prone to pork barrelling. That NSW government announcement yesterday is a good example. 20 billion for Sydney and what does Newcastle/Hunter get?

11. Due to historically having government owned monopolies, once privatised prices go to commercial rates but there is still no competition.

12. Coles/Woolworths

13. Just look at us. Look at how rich we are compared to other nations. Then look at our shit poor public transportation, roads and other shit.

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14. The massive reduction in pics of hot chicks being posted to this forum by SB.

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

14. The massive reduction in pics of hot chicks being posted to this forum by SB.

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You can partly blame Items 1, 3, 4 and 5 for the state of affairs.

SB. There is absolutely no legitimate empirical studies to suggest minimum wage increases reduce unemployment. However, there are studies that have shown a rise in the minimum wage has lead to increases in employment,

To show that an increase in the minimum wage leads to job losses in aggregate you need to set the income elasticity's of demand to infinitely small quantities and the elasticity of demand for labour to a value greater than unity.

Unfortunately, to keep the Ne0-Liberal dream alive their studies assume, rather than estimate, the income elasticity and the demand elasticity's in the very manner described above.

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

SB. There is absolutely no legitimate empirical studies to suggest minimum wage increases reduce unemployment. However, there are studies that have shown a rise in the minimum wage has lead to increases in employment,

To show that an increase in the minimum wage leads to job losses in aggregate you need to set the income elasticity's of demand to infinitely small quantities and the elasticity of demand for labour to a value greater than unity.

Unfortunately, to keep the Ne0-Liberal dream alive their studies assume, rather than estimate, the income elasticity and the demand elasticity's in the very manner described above.

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The point I'm making about the minimum wage is that the effects it has on housing affordability, youth unemployment and wage pressures are quite negative.

The minimum wage should not be at a level that enables a person to live comfortable for the rest of their life. It should provide enough security for a SINGLE person with basic accommodation, transportation, utilities and food and at least one night a week on the booze. Nothing more. If people wish to have a better quality of life then they have to find better employment.

We complain about skills shortages in a lot of sectors. 457 visas issues ect. I wonder why? Because there is no incentive now to up skill and chase these positions. Why bust your arse for 4 years in a trade/degree when an unskilled minimum wage position can a decent standard of living?

If there was one thing I noticed in Germany in my year there was how much younger retail and hospitality staff were. (In my part of Germany anyway). Youth/young unemployment here in Australia is shocking and I do think this is something hat needs to be looked at.

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Originally Posted by Blackmac79

What happens when the Libs have nomore public assets to sell?

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build more assets.

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if I'm building an asset today that will last for say 100 years, it will generally outlast all but the newest babies, therefore future generations will be the beneficiaries of the asset. it therefore seems reasonable to me that the future generations help to pay for the asset, which can only be done through the raising of debt (with the future generations, including myself, into the future paying taxes to reduce the debt over time). it appears to me that neither party thinks it is reasonable (saddling our kids and grandkids with debt was a common theme in the past few elections).

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Simple: Political cycles only go for 3-4 years. By the time any of these big decisions come to fruition the govts responsible will be well out of office. As discussed many times by many different people on here, its a popularity contest. No one looks big picture.

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I laugh (or is it cry?) whenever I hear the libs going on about debt and deficit while they are simultaneously saddling our kids and grandkids with the biggest liability imaginable - uncontrolled climate change.

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Nah, that would be China/India and USA messing yo kids futures up.

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

Reason: For people to spend more than they earn they need to obtain credit -Hello Banks - Hello Bank share prices rising.

Both major parties are unfortunately captured by the financial sector in this country

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in defense of the obsession with the banking industry, one of the quickest way to "grow" an economy is through the financial sector.
massively generalising the process but pretty much for every dollar a bank has they can then re-lend a certain multiple of that amount (accounting nerdz please correct). i think it was between $7 and $9 for every dollar held. Its (one of) the reason why your Hong Kongs/Englands and Switzerland etc have desirable economies without having the usual assets like natural resources etc.
now, if the banks are allowed to control too much of their destiny then they expand to the point of bursting ('sup USA) so Dunster is right (as usual) to say the obsession is dangerous. Especially when it seems like Pollies these days are easily brought/swayed.
a tightly controlled strong financial sector is a great thing, having a bunch of retards controlling it is scary.

again, pls and sorry for for generalising, this area is not my specialty which is why i love reading Dunsters detailed posts.

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Originally Posted by Skirt Boy

8. University education is too expensive.

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some students need to get a grip.
considering your tradies and entrepreneurs get sweet **** all assistance to get their careers started its a miracle we ever get anything done round ere.
if you think that arts degrees are more important for the future if our country than concreters and small business owners then you need to get out more.

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Originally Posted by plague

some students need to get a grip.
considering your tradies and entrepreneurs get sweet **** all assistance to get their careers started its a miracle we ever get anything done round ere.
if you think that arts degrees are more important for the future if our country than concreters and small business owners then you need to get out more.

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I already have a trade. (Boilermaker) :)

The argument that university graduates make more money so they should pay me. Fair enough argument but they also if they are earning more money are paying more taxes anyway.

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Originally Posted by Skirt Boy

I already have a trade. (Boilermaker) :)

The argument that university graduates make more money so they should pay me. Fair enough argument but they also if they are earning more money are paying more taxes anyway.

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there are plenty of sparkies, fitters, plumbers etc that wouldnt get out of bed for the average uni grad wage at the moment.
I actually think the HECS scheme is great. the smarter the workforce the better it is for all (esp when they are really only repaying about 40-50% of the real cost of their degree yeah? (supernerdz pls confirm)
but i just wish there was a HECS scheme for tradies and for small business owners too tis all.
it just grates on me that students are always crying poor about the cost of education when they dont seem to have any comprehension of the way the world works.

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Originally Posted by plague

there are plenty of sparkies, fitters, plumbers etc that wouldnt get out of bed for the average uni grad wage at the moment.
I actually think the HECS scheme is great. the smarter the workforce the better it is for all (esp when they are really only repaying about 40-50% of the real cost of their degree yeah? (supernerdz pls confirm)
but i just wish there was a HECS scheme for tradies and for small business owners too tis all.
it just grates on me that students are always crying poor about the cost of education when they dont seem to have any comprehension of the way the world works.

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When I did my apprenticeship it was about 300 bucks a year at TAFE...........Company paid for it.

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Originally Posted by plague

in defense of the obsession with the banking industry, one of the quickest way to "grow" an economy is through the financial sector.
massively generalising the process but pretty much for every dollar a bank has they can then re-lend a certain multiple of that amount (accounting nerdz please correct). i think it was between $7 and $9 for every dollar held.

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The quickest way to grow an economy with floating exchange rates and a soverign currency is via fiscal policy. Monetary policy is rarely desirable when exchange rates are floating, interest rates are exogenously determined ,and the money supply is endogenously determined by the banking sector.

The only truly fair interest rate is zero % as anything else will favour some and disadvantage others

With respect to Banks and loans.

The notion of a money multiplier is an artifact of undergraduate economics textbooks and more ideologically driven neo-liberal garbage.

In a modern de regulated banking system with fiat currencies and floating exchange rates loans create deposits not the other way around.

To make loans all banks require is credit worthy borrowers. There is no need to hold reserves they simply borrow them when they need them.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia...-seekers-lives

Wow.
Just remember Australia - you voted for these asshats.

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Originally Posted by furns

http://www.theguardian.com/australia...-seekers-lives

Wow.
Just remember Australia - you voted for these asshats.

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I dunno, I'd prob rather him in charge than the other clowns who let all those other 1000 odd die at sea innit?

Just remember the Guardian = Daily Telegraph depending on which side of the fence you're on.

No Australian politics but a truly global political event.

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Bodo Ramelow ist der erste linke Ministerpräsident

Erfurt. Bodo Ramelow ist der erste linke Ministerpräsident in der Geschichte der Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

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http://www.thueringer-allgemeine.de/...ent-1184902312

Basically in English.

Bodo Ramelow has been elected as the Prime Minister of Thuringia. The first person from the party Die Linke which is a sucessor to the old SED (Communists of East Germany)

Nutjob NCC Council, now wanting the heavy rail line to stay.... short term vote thinking... not long term progression of the city..... FFS newcastle in general have there heads so far up there arses its not funny........ Such a small world syndrom....

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Originally Posted by goaliepersempre

Nutjob NCC Council, now wanting the heavy rail line to stay.... short term vote thinking... not long term progression of the city..... FFS newcastle in general have there heads so far up there arses its not funny........ Such a small world syndrom....

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ok ill ask.
why do you want the rail line gone?
please explain.

I don't care either way, I don't use it all that often in fact rarely, but it would be a shame for others that did use it who live in say Muswellbrook but work in town