The A-League Expansion Thread

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Originally Posted by Jetmaster

No problem with NSL clubs getting competent sides on the park. It's off the field the problems will be - can you honestly believe that South Melbourne will have a support base in Melbourne that is not of a Greek majority? Can they change that demographic because they have been saying they will for the last 20 years (right back to the Lakers days) and I still hear the "Hellas" chant. Same applies to Marconi, Sydney United and Melbourne Knights.

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition. This is why I want FFA to step up in their support for CCM, the Jets and other regional sides - they are truly needed. You lose us two and bring in SM and Marconi and you take a huge step backward.

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Great post.

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Originally Posted by De-Champ

What a load of nonsense. Add four or five imports to South Melbourne, plus one or two they pinch of other A league clubs and they would be very competative. Ditto with Adelaide City, 2nd Brisbane team any number of Sydney teams or other Melbourne teams. I would say you could find more than 4 teams. The problem the FFA has is outside the bigger cities (Sydney/Melbourne) you have problems attracting crowds.

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But I don't hear any of these clubs saying that they want to join the A-league. Have I missed something ?

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Originally Posted by Jetmaster

No problem with NSL clubs getting competent sides on the park. It's off the field the problems will be - can you honestly believe that South Melbourne will have a support base in Melbourne that is not of a Greek majority? Can they change that demographic because they have been saying they will for the last 20 years (right back to the Lakers days) and I still hear the "Hellas" chant. Same applies to Marconi, Sydney United and Melbourne Knights.

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition. This is why I want FFA to step up in their support for CCM, the Jets and other regional sides - they are truly needed. You lose us two and bring in SM and Marconi and you take a huge step backward.

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Yeah fair call. My thoughts are with a lot of those bigger NPL clubs they have the facilities to come straight into a second division without having to play at massive stadium with stupid rent costs. In Sydney, Sydney United have Edensor which is a fantastic facility, same with Blacktown, Campbelltown stadium and Shark Park and WIN for the Gong are all great spots as well as being geographically distinct, then you have Sth Melbourne and Melb Knights who have great boutique size grounds/stadiums.

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

But I don't hear any of these clubs saying that they want to join the A-league. Have I missed something ?

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Sth Melbourne have on a number of occasions and Adelaide City said they would love to if given an opportunity just this week. Knights have been vocal about not having any higher option than the NPL as well

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Originally Posted by The Camel

Sth Melbourne have on a number of occasions and Adelaide City said they would love to if given an opportunity just this week. Knights have been vocal about not having any higher option than the NPL as well

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Fair enough. Can't see it happening but I have learned something I did not know.

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

But I don't hear any of these clubs saying that they want to join the A-league. Have I missed something ?

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Sydney United are more or less demanding it - which I find concerning.

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As Sydney United attempt to claim what is in effect the Australian second-tier title for the second time in four years, club boss Sam Krslovic has warned unless Football Federation Australia make serious moves towards establishing a nationwide second division, ambitious semi-pro clubs around the country will "take matters into their own hands".

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http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news...27-grpaf6.html

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Originally Posted by Jetmaster

Sydney United are more or less demanding it - which I find concerning.



http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news...27-grpaf6.html

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Maybe from a neutral perspective Jetmaster it may be "concerning" but if you look at it from the viewpoint from Sydney United or South Melbourne, or the many other clubs you can begin to understand their frustrations with the current set-up.
FFA though have shown recently that a 2nd tier with promotion and relegation is well and truly in their future plans.
I do think though that clubs like Sydney United do have to accept that the process to get to this stage can't be rushed through. It is better to get it right from the beginning and set the foundations right, rather then the whole thing turning to shite in a few years and having to start all over again.

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Originally Posted by Jetmaster

Sydney United are more or less demanding it - which I find concerning.



http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news...27-grpaf6.html

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Damn - I have been asleep then. Would be a disaster no doubt but the lolz would be immense if we got a 3rd team in Sydney

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Originally Posted by Jetmaster

No problem with NSL clubs getting competent sides on the park. It's off the field the problems will be - can you honestly believe that South Melbourne will have a support base in Melbourne that is not of a Greek majority? Can they change that demographic because they have been saying they will for the last 20 years (right back to the Lakers days) and I still hear the "Hellas" chant. Same applies to Marconi, Sydney United and Melbourne Knights.

Football fans won't see this as a problem but the general media and sporting public will see it as a return to "wogball" and a Sydney/Melbourne focussed competition. This is why I want FFA to step up in their support for CCM, the Jets and other regional sides - they are truly needed. You lose us two and bring in SM and Marconi and you take a huge step backward.

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This is why I hated the nsl. I could live next to the Mel knights* ground and feel alienated from the club. Feel the same about local clubs here as well. *pick any ethic dominant club

Clubs that are location based and that endeavour to get all people (multicultural) from that territory is much prefered for me.

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Originally Posted by hawk

This is why I hated the nsl. I could live next to the Mel knights* ground and feel alienated from the club. Feel the same about local clubs here as well. *pick any ethic dominant club

Clubs that are location based and that endeavour to get all people (multicultural) from that territory is much prefered for me.

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Rather sad that you feel that way hawk, that you are unable to embrace and accept a different culture but that's your perogative.
I'm sure players like Peter Haynes or Josh Piddington who have been at a "ethnic" club like Magic for years would have a different opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by stopper2

Rather sad that you feel that way hawk, that you are unable to embrace and accept a different culture but that's your perogative.
I'm sure players like Peter Haynes or Josh Piddington who have been at a "ethnic" club like Magic for years would have a different opinion on the matter.

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If you'd read properly im advocating cultural inclusion. Its the clubs who promote this crap. Maybe you need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall.

and yes if another player is good enough for the cause they're in.

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Originally Posted by hawk

This is why I hated the nsl. I could live next to the Mel knights* ground and feel alienated from the club. Feel the same about local clubs here as well. *pick any ethic dominant club

Clubs that are location based and that endeavour to get all people (multicultural) from that territory is much prefered for me.

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maybe the reasons these clubs were started were because those people felt alienated themselves when they arrived in Australia and got comfort in being around people that weren't going to call them wogs etc, an issue that still exists today

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Originally Posted by hawk

If you'd read properly im advocating cultural inclusion. Its the clubs who promote this crap. Maybe you need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall.

and yes if another player is good enough for the cause they're in.

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After a generation or two these clubs' nationalist element has definitley been watered down from what it was in the 80's so I think you are way off the mark when you refer to "clubs who promote this crap". Please elaborate by what you mean you "need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall"....I am intrigued?

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Originally Posted by stopper2

Rather sad that you feel that way hawk, that you are unable to embrace and accept a different culture but that's your perogative.
I'm sure players like Peter Haynes or Josh Piddington who have been at a "ethnic" club like Magic for years would have a different opinion on the matter.

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You cannot for a moment compare Magic or Olympic in Newcastle to what you get in Melbourne. Holy crap. I remember playing against Juventus in the early 1970's and not one of their players uttered a word in English all game. If they weren't rolling around on their backs faking injuries they were speaking Italian.
We beat them as well, and it didn't feel like a win until we were in the bus and on our way home. Oh and this was in shit beetle division. It would have been more intense with the divisions that could actually play.

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Originally Posted by Nou Camp

maybe the reasons these clubs were started were because those people felt alienated themselves when they arrived in Australia and got comfort in being around people that weren't going to call them wogs etc, an issue that still exists today

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Good point Nou Camp.
What just like to add for our good friend hawk who is adamant that these club's didn't allow others to assimilate.
Has been well-documented in the past (including Johnny Warren's "Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters") that Indigenous players in the 50's and 60's like Charles Perkins were more readily accepted by the ethnic clubs then good old Aussie/Anglo clubs. Perkins played most of his football with Pan Hellenic (Greek) now Sydney Olympic and Canberra Deakin (Croatian). Says something about those times; that an Idigenous Aussie was made to feel more welcome at so-called ethnic clubs who were supposedly not good at "assimilating".

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

You cannot for a moment compare Magic or Olympic in Newcastle to what you get in Melbourne. Holy crap. I remember playing against Juventus in the early 1970's and not one of their players uttered a word in English all game.

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Oh dear, poor Dunster, the players did not utter a word of English!!! They probably done that on purpose so the opposition could not "catch on" to their tactics, hey.
Seriously mate, is that a real issue to you?
Do you go to shopping centres and here someone speaking a foreign language, does that offend you?

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Originally Posted by stopper2

Oh dear, poor Dunster, the players did not utter a word of English!!! They probably done that on purpose so the opposition could not "catch on" to their tactics, hey.
Seriously mate, is that a real issue to you?
Do you go to shopping centres and here someone speaking a foreign language, does that offend you?

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Given we had three Italians in our team and that five of my cousins I grew up with were also Italian I had a pretty fair grasp of the language and culture back then.
You on the other hand are clueless about Victorian football in the 1960's and 70's and should probably crawl back inside your Newcastle football bubble and ....

No offence.

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Originally Posted by stopper2

After a generation or two these clubs' nationalist element has definitley been watered down from what it was in the 80's so I think you are way off the mark when you refer to "clubs who promote this crap". Please elaborate by what you mean you "need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall"....I am wardly more intrigued?

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Because I feel a disconnect from ethnicity even you, the apparent knowledge of all cant refute it. And going the grub by throwing in slanderous allegations wont be tolerated, next time your'e out.

The clubs are not bad but maybe they could grow a larger crowd to that needed of aleague level by becoming outwardly more multicultural.

Yes these and many other clubs are the ones that kept football going when league and afl took over the country and look how that ended up.

As I alluded earlier, the problem is not with true football fans. We understand the contribution of ethnic clubs.

The problem would be the perception of the media and general sports fans who would not get it. God help us if there was a flate ripped.

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

Given we had three Italians in our team and that five of my cousins I grew up with were also Italian I had a pretty fair grasp of the language and culture back then.
You on the other hand are clueless about Victorian football in the 1960's and 70's and should probably crawl back inside your Newcastle football bubble and ....

No offence.

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Okay, taking in the above why is it seemingly an "issue" because the Juventus players spoke Italian during the game? (which you brought up)
Football in Australia is inextricably linked with the post WWII migrant community.
It's something we should acknowledge and embrace as part of our games history in this country not be embarrassed about and weeded out of the history books.

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Originally Posted by hawk

Because I feel a disconnect from ethnicity even you, the apparent knowledge of all cant refute it. And going the grub by throwing in slanderous allegations wont be tolerated, next time your'e out.

The clubs are not bad but maybe they could grow a larger crowd to that needed of aleague level by becoming outwardly more multicultural.

Yes these and many other clubs are the ones that kept football going when league and afl took over the country and look how that ended up.

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Would love to know what these "slanderous allegations" are hawk, please explain?

BTW League and AFL have been the dominant codes for decades well before the NSL even came into being. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

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Originally Posted by stopper2

BTW League and AFL have been the dominant codes for decades well before the NSL even came into being. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

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probably because the biggest participation sport in the country (and world) should have an immeasurable advantage in this country but time after time has failed to even get the smallest foothold in the top tier of the sporting lexicon.

and if you've been paying attention, people who lived through it are spelling out the reasons why 'they' (as individuals) felt disenfranchised from their own damn sport.

stop wagging your social justice finger at them and listen, you may see a common thread. one that was removed from the current incarnation of the sports attempt at mainstream success and lo and ****ing behold it may just be getting somewhere.

Go back and read jetmasters post from a bit back, then read it again, then again.
it will help.

Back to expansion.

The way I see it.
Pro/Rel is a long way off at least 20+ years, but we need to start laying the foundation for the future and stop thinking in 4-5 year cycles. If any of you have time look up the 100 year plan of Japanese football. In short the JFA in the early 90's set the goals to have 100 professional clubs and win the World Cup sometime in the next 100 years. Just over 20 years has past and they are already over half of their goal for 100 professional clubs.

The Second Division needs to be established ASAP.
From that the A-League can have it's expansion from promoting second division clubs, promotion based on not only on results but also criteria and geography. The FFA can identify clubs/regions it wishes to have in the A-League and said clubs can use the second division to ready itself for the A-League. All the while the remaining second division clubs can use the time to grow and prepare for the eventual implementation of Pro/Rel once all second division are A-League ready.

It just needs some forethought and correct planning but it needs to happen. We need to stop concentrating on 2016-2020 and start thinking were should football be in 2050 and how do we get it there.

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Originally Posted by Premy

Back to expansion.

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i don't think we moved away from it.
the last few posts have been making the point that theres no point introducing a 2nd tier if we are just going to fill it with established clubs.
the whole reason the A-League exists is to get away from those established clubs.
the 2nd division will need to be made up of 'a-league lite' versions of the blueprint already in operation.

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Originally Posted by stopper2

Okay, taking in the above why is it seemingly an "issue" because the Juventus players spoke Italian during the game? (which you brought up)
Football in Australia is inextricably linked with the post WWII migrant community.
It's something we should acknowledge and embrace as part of our games history in this country not be embarrassed about and weeded out of the history books.

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It was never an issue for me because I had family that were foreigners and grew up with people of many nationalities. My club for example was predominately Dutch when I started and became more English / Australian by the time I'd finished.
And you have it all wrong about not embracing the ethnicity of certain clubs back then. It was quite the opposite. The predominately ethnic clubs were without a doubt the most respected / feared and fixtures against them were never taken lightly. In fact you tended to put in extra at training that week so as to not be the recipients of a flogging. The players at these ethnic would have found game day was probably the only day of the week where they felt respected. At school and work many of them would have felt some form of alienation be it through being labeled a wog, dago... and so on by non football types.
I mean if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of it in the 60's and 70's you were considered feminine if you played the game regardless of your ethnicity. It was no doubt even worse in 50's.

Do I think those times should be embraced today ? No. The game has moved on / evolved and repeating the past makes no sense. We tried a national competition where the ethnic ties were strong and it simply did not work for many reasons not just ethnicity alone. We are all Australian's now no matter what we look like, how we speak, or where we were originally from.

I have no problem embracing the roles these clubs played in developing the game but the us vs them shit based on ethnicity should never be allowed to return because it didn't really help anyone.


Flame away.

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Originally Posted by Premy

Back to expansion.

The way I see it.
Pro/Rel is a long way off at least 20+ years, but we need to start laying the foundation for the future and stop thinking in 4-5 year cycles. If any of you have time look up the 100 year plan of Japanese football. In short the JFA in the early 90's set the goals to have 100 professional clubs and win the World Cup sometime in the next 100 years. Just over 20 years has past and they are already over half of their goal for 100 professional clubs.

The Second Division needs to be established ASAP.
From that the A-League can have it's expansion from promoting second division clubs, promotion based on not only on results but also criteria and geography. The FFA can identify clubs/regions it wishes to have in the A-League and said clubs can use the second division to ready itself for the A-League. All the while the remaining second division clubs can use the time to grow and prepare for the eventual implementation of Pro/Rel once all second division are A-League ready.

It just needs some forethought and correct planning but it needs to happen. We need to stop concentrating on 2016-2020 and start thinking were should football be in 2050 and how do we get it there.

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Agree. The only problem I see before you can have pro/relegation is you must have (1) more A/league teams, ten is not enough (2) you need the to be as close to self sufficient as possible (break even) otherwise you will end up with a bigger mess than we have now. (3) The expansion team/places that you think of are different to where the FFA think of.

Would the status of the 2nd tier teams be professional and if so what access and influence would the PFA have ?

My guess would be that their involvement would increase costs to clubs to levels they do not currently have to endure - and perhaps may not have even considered.

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Originally Posted by hawk

Because I feel a disconnect from ethnicity even you, the apparent knowledge of all cant refute it. And going the grub by throwing in slanderous allegations wont be tolerated, next time your'e out.

The clubs are not bad but maybe they could grow a larger crowd to that needed of aleague level by becoming outwardly more multicultural.

Yes these and many other clubs are the ones that kept football going when league and afl took over the country and look how that ended up.

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What local clubs do you feel alienated by and which ones could become more multicultural in your opinion?

We had a bit of a discussion on pro/rel & expansion at the end of the Jetstream preview podcast released yesterday. Some good points raised.

I've heard that the FFA are looking at Adelaide and Brisbane to expand to next as they want derbies

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Originally Posted by joel31

I've heard that the FFA are looking at Adelaide and Brisbane to expand to next as they want derbies

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I'm skeptical of another team in either city. Current membership numbers:

Adelaide: 8,911, after just winning the title and being pretty consistent for the last 11 seasons.
Brisbane: 4,653, despite winning the grand final 3 times and the other thing twice, as well as having some of the best players in the league grace their pitch.

Jets: 7,787.

I can't see how teams in either of those cities could really attract new fans. To me WSW made sense because it was a whole different area of Sydney. I'm not sure where the Melb City fans came from, but at least they have the population and sporting interest to warrant it.

I could maybe see perth with a second team.

But anyway, doesn't another sydney team give you 6 more "derbies" whereas adelaide only gives you 3?

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Originally Posted by halo se7en

I'm skeptical of another team in either city. Current membership numbers:

Adelaide: 8,911, after just winning the title and being pretty consistent for the last 11 seasons.
Brisbane: 4,653, despite winning the grand final 3 times and the other thing twice, as well as having some of the best players in the league grace their pitch.

Jets: 7,787.

I can't see how teams in either of those cities could really attract new fans. To me WSW made sense because it was a whole different area of Sydney. I'm not sure where the Melb City fans came from, but at least they have the population and sporting interest to warrant it.

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I don't think it's a great idea either. I'm just saying what i heard

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Originally Posted by Premy

Back to expansion.

The way I see it.
Pro/Rel is a long way off at least 20+ years, but we need to start laying the foundation for the future and stop thinking in 4-5 year cycles. If any of you have time look up the 100 year plan of Japanese football. In short the JFA in the early 90's set the goals to have 100 professional clubs and win the World Cup sometime in the next 100 years. Just over 20 years has past and they are already over half of their goal for 100 professional clubs.

The Second Division needs to be established ASAP.
From that the A-League can have it's expansion from promoting second division clubs, promotion based on not only on results but also criteria and geography. The FFA can identify clubs/regions it wishes to have in the A-League and said clubs can use the second division to ready itself for the A-League. All the while the remaining second division clubs can use the time to grow and prepare for the eventual implementation of Pro/Rel once all second division are A-League ready.

It just needs some forethought and correct planning but it needs to happen. We need to stop concentrating on 2016-2020 and start thinking were should football be in 2050 and how do we get it there.

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For me the first steps should be to create a summer based second division to work in unison with the HAL. It would need to be considered professional, but would need to be reflective of the tier two status, by negotiating suitable player salary cap and conditions, it will need to be cheap, if anyone actually thinks TV broadcaster would pay large sums of money for the rights they are deluded. Funding is going to be very hard and their would be a good chance no TV revenue of any significance would be available.

The Most suitable NPL teams should be targeted, facilities, management levels, cash etc should be used to grade them and then combine them with the HAL youth teams.This would have 2 benefits, 1. Increase the current level of competition for the HAL youth teams, its currently well below par, whilst hopefully reducing the amount of travel by having less interstate transit by utilising a conference system, even though I dislike the concept. 2. Provide another step up for exposure for organisations to show they are capable of running club before getting the keys to a HAL spot.

This type of set up would also allow HAL clubs to loan players up and down between the two divisions as injury replacements, which should be used to 1. get players returning from injury some much needed game time, 2. create a revenue stream for tier two clubs & 3. if a player has a good NPL season they could take a loan spell upto the second division to test themselves.

By utilising the youth teams you wouldn't need to create a huge new division and have to find all these extra professional players, you could start with two 10 team conferences and work from.
there. The point of a second division should be about creating a step up in class from the NPL and concentrating the talent pool is necessary to achieve that, currently with the NPL system players are very spread out.

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Originally Posted by Pico

For me the first steps should be to create a summer based second division to work in unison with the HAL. It would need to be considered professional, but would need to be reflective of the tier two status, by negotiating suitable player salary cap and conditions, it will need to be cheap, if anyone actually thinks TV broadcaster would pay large sums of money for the rights they are deluded. Funding is going to be very hard and their would be a good chance no TV revenue of any significance would be available.

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Would this system be relo and promotion?

As someone suggested above, my biggest worry is what happens when smaller areas like us that will be likely be stuck in div2. I can some teams falling off together and then the big city clubs all remain in top div.

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Originally Posted by hawk

Would this system be relo and promotion?

As someone suggested above, my biggest worry is what happens when smaller areas like us that will be likely be stuck in div2. I can some teams falling off together and then the big city clubs all remain in top div.

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In my mind initially no, (and just no in general imo) however it could be used to meet the requirements of P/R. You could have a set criteria that extends beyond just league finish, the k-league I believe has a similar system.

A system could perhaps be to finish top two of their conference (remembering that they would be competing against, and need to finish above all the HAL youth teams), win a playoff of the top conference teams (two from each) in a home and away mini season and then still meet the criteria, well if they achieve that, why not bump them up and expand the HAL organically, for me P/R has good points and bad but for the most, I believe the bad still out way the good at this point.

I admire the J-league for having the balls to set bench marks and have real world goal's & targets in their 100 year plan, in short it's aspirational, compare it to the FFA's large on concepts and rhetoric but completely devoid of any measurable outcomes, strategy or implementation plans that is the whole of football plan. They should have just called it what it is, Australian Football's Great Hope.

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Originally Posted by hawk

If you'd read properly im advocating cultural inclusion. Its the clubs who promote this crap. Maybe you need some social lessons, yr 8 had i recall.

and yes if another player is good enough for the cause they're in.

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NSL went mainstream in 80s - did **** all

P/R should be decided on the pitch, not on NCIP based boardroom decisions.

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Originally Posted by RAM

P/R should be decided on the pitch, not on NCIP based boardroom decisions.

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agree, i just hope the 'new' teams in the 2nd div are all compliant BEFORE they kick a ball. It will help avoid any dramas later on.

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Originally Posted by The Dunster

It was never an issue for me because I had family that were foreigners and grew up with people of many nationalities. My club for example was predominately Dutch when I started and became more English / Australian by the time I'd finished.
And you have it all wrong about not embracing the ethnicity of certain clubs back then. It was quite the opposite. The predominately ethnic clubs were without a doubt the most respected / feared and fixtures against them were never taken lightly. In fact you tended to put in extra at training that week so as to not be the recipients of a flogging. The players at these ethnic would have found game day was probably the only day of the week where they felt respected. At school and work many of them would have felt some form of alienation be it through being labeled a wog, dago... and so on by non football types.
I mean if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of it in the 60's and 70's you were considered feminine if you played the game regardless of your ethnicity. It was no doubt even worse in 50's.

Do I think those times should be embraced today ? No. The game has moved on / evolved and repeating the past makes no sense. We tried a national competition where the ethnic ties were strong and it simply did not work for many reasons not just ethnicity alone. We are all Australian's now no matter what we look like, how we speak, or where we were originally from.

I have no problem embracing the roles these clubs played in developing the game but the us vs them shit based on ethnicity should never be allowed to return because it didn't really help anyone.


Flame away.

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Good post Dunster, I share your sentiments.

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Originally Posted by plague

i don't think we moved away from it.
the last few posts have been making the point that theres no point introducing a 2nd tier if we are just going to fill it with established clubs.
the whole reason the A-League exists is to get away from those established clubs.
the 2nd division will need to be made up of 'a-league lite' versions of the blueprint already in operation.

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.....and WHY will it have to be made up of "a-league lite" versions?
You say a lot of things I agree with plague and a lot of the times I can see you are just trying to take the piss and sometimes I just don't agree with you but this just won't happen mate. You might as well tell these clubs to fold because there is nothing for them to aspire to other then to rot away in state NPL.
We need to be inclusive if we want the game to grow and achieve it's potential, treating established clubs like outcasts is not good for the game to grow and be united.