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Except for the fact we just spent 10 years running as far away from the past as we could and it seems to be working ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by stopper2
It seems the only viable way you'll get your football utopia is with a hashtag, candlelight vigil of Facebook filter.
Good luck.
Football utopia is already here. There wont be domination in aus as the other codes are too well entrenched and thats ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
I find that attaining an acceptance on an equal level with our other national sports (not there yet) and a having a restspectable "international" accliamed comp is all I ever needed.
oh and I want a world cup win
I think some people on here's idea of utopia won't eventuate until some club your great grand pappy told you about and their 3,000 fans stand side by side with your plastics/mongs etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk
Can't wait for that day, sounds ace.
Yeah running away from the past for much of those 10 years but there is a change in the air brought about by the FFA Cup where the divide of "old soccer" and "new football" is being narrowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Mate, I couldn't be bothered arguing with you but if you really think that clubs like South Melbourne or Sydney United shouldn't be part of a proposed 2nd Tier competition down the track then you really shows you aren't up to speed with the general mood in the football community whether it's people like Bozza and Simon Hill in the media or your average Joe Blow expressing his views on social media.
Good luck to you too.
OK i have some discussion points.Quote:
Originally Posted by stopper2
I didnt start the A-League, some very clever people did and their formula, whilst not perfect, seems to be heading in the right direction. My opinion was formed by listening to the people who started (and ran) the league for the first 10 years. Simon Hill, Bozza etc all have their hopes and dreams and good on them. but people like that 'wishing' for something versus the statements of people who actually manage the game in the country would definitely point to my way of thinking rather than yours.
also, im fine with people from old clubs being involved in new football. if they ditch the flags, the badge, the colours, the name and team up with a few other like minded clubs they could probably put a viable franchise proposal forward. If you think those old clubs can stand alone, let alone have the infrastructure and capital to even get up to A-League standard then I'm reading different reports to you. Again happy to be educated on this but you're not really providing me the relevant resources.
Also, the love fest that is the FFA cup is rigged deliberately to get a non A-League club to the semis. If everyone is on an even playing field you think any of these cubs are get within a bulls roar of the established clubs?
Also, to your last point, and sorry but im gonna have to call you out for telling fibs here. I looked up the twitter account of @joeblow and he has no opinion on the state of football in Australia in fact all he seems to do is tag a company called 'karmaloop' in the hope of getting some "free gear".
You can check his account here.
speak soon.
Cheers,
Plague.
Wow. Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Mate you were the one who stated that there is no place for the "established" clubs in the A-League 2nd Division, I simply disagreed as there has been enough "us and them" mentality and then in your reply you go off on some typical BS rant clouding the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Lets just watch this space then hey....lets see which clubs make up the 2nd Division. I bet you it will be bona fide existing clubs too not some plastic franchise or as you have hited; amalgamations (now that is laughable....imagine Melb Knights and Sth Melbourne ha ha)
A 2nd Division won't be happening within 3 years minimum, probably closer to 5 and even then I'd say it will be a few years again before there is any promotion/relegation. The FFA's main priority (and rightly so) is to get 12 or even 14 sustainable clubs in the A-League first. Now are we in agreeance with this?
I think we all want 2nd division promotion / relegation, but no one knows which way to do it.... every angle u look at it and there are huge walls to climb: incorporating existing state league clubs or creating / renaming 10 to 12 new franchise being the biggest question. Then comes sustainability hurdles ......
oh stopper, what are we gonna do with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by stopper2
firstly, read the posts. then don't get so worked up. You did the same with Hawk. 'us vs them'? where did you get that one from?
All im trying to do is explain the FFA's position to you and point out that i have no reason to doubt they would veer away from that blueprint.
if you're having trouble seeing that then theres not much more i can do for you.
Many NPL clubs already operate on budgets of $200K +, with a bit of national exposure and the incentive of promotion (why spend more now when you're at the ceiling with no extra sponsorship $$ etc) they could easily sustain $1M in a second division.
I think its naive to assume that these clubs wouldn't know how to be viable in that environment when many have been doing it for 70 odd years.
The nature of an open system is that those that can't survive or are run poorly, ala Portsmouth or Blackpool, are removed and replaced by better run enterprises.
If the Jets can't deal with that despite our sugar daddy and substantial local support then we have no right to demand a place in the top tier.
Some people need to read the thread as to why clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United would find it hard.....it isn't about business nous, money or capacity to field a competitive team.
It is perception of the general sporting public and media to these clubs. One chant of "Hellas" at Middle Park would wipe everything.
True, there are NPL teams around that would definitely be looked at in a favourable light to go into a second division, but it would be because they are in a favourable location and are not mono ethnic. Wollongong Wolves and Sutherland Sharks are an example of a team that could realistically go straight into a second division. Gold Coast City, FNQ Heat and NQ Fury as well as the Strikers and maybe Western Pride in Qld. Even Dandenong Thunder in Vic as that area's population is expanding like the Campbelltown/Macarthur area of SydneyQuote:
Originally Posted by Jetmaster
The FFA Cup is popular notwithstanding the strong ethnic links to many of the games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmaster
We should celebrate our diversity, we're not living in the 60s anymore.
FFS Dandenong Thunder is an ethnic club
P/R should be decided on the pitch, with a South Korean style criteria to ensure that clubs that do go up have the facilities. Like it or not most of the clubs at the moment who do are ones which has ethnic roots. If they're good enough and have the backing, then they deserve to go up - regardless of any racist opinions otherwise
Dandenong is ethnic ffsQuote:
Originally Posted by The Camel
We don't want a 2nd division of Mariners-esque teams....
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
So the model A-league club everyone points to (Victory) has an operating budget of about $18.5m.
You now expect these local teams to magically muscle in on the corporate/fan dollar in Melbourne (competing with not only established A-league clubs but also AFL/Rugby League teams that can give a company much bigger exposure) in order to even be remotely competitive?
Ok.
Add to that compliance costs/licence fees (which the FFA WILL be charging to enter) and you are talking an astronomical increase in the size of their business.
So no, it's not being naive, it's being realistic.
Also, and this relates to my man stopper, can someone point me to the articles relating to South Melbourne etc wanting to be in the A-League 'as' South Melbourne?
Because all I can see is a very different tact (which is kind of what I've been saying anyway).
But yeah, hit me up.
Is a second division always on par financially with the top flight? FMDQuote:
Originally Posted by plague
Are championship clubs spending the same as EPL clubs?
Why do 2nd division teams need to operate on an $18M budget? Do the Jets or Mariners?
With TV money of $5M(?) or so if they're promoted to the HAL, why wouldn't the 2nd division teams be competitive?
Furthermore, why disregard these clubs purely because of their heritage in favour of non-existent clubs like Canberra etc?
Its less of a jump for them than compared to a completely new set up FFS
Oh man oh man oh man.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
There it is ladies and gentlemen.
Congrats sir.
Because from year two when the first A-League team goes down everyone in the 2nd div will be outspent.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
You guys are telling me the 2nd div is there to get teams into the A-League aren't you?
Well wouldnt they have to be better than A-league level teams to get there?
and of course they wouldn't be spending $18.5m in div 2. but they sure as hell won't be spend $1m either. Even if it's half, isn't the jump from $1m to 6,7,8 or 9 still a big jump?
(Obviously not for zillionaires like Hawk).
Actually it just seems like we have very differing opinions on what this 2nd div should look like.
Why don't you jot me down some points on what you expect it to be to help out.
Again, because it's the blueprint of the damn league.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
This post makes too much sense, What is it doing on the Foz ?Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Sorry, but I took my meds this morning, this is a sad by product.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dunster
but (sadly) it seems I'm a racist though.
Why should this matter in a multicultural country like Australia in the 21st century where we have a foreign flag (the Union Jack) as part of our flag?....just sayin:rof:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmaster
Err no, they only have to be better than the teams in their division. Aren't you familiar with how promotion and relegation works?Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
And the jump from $1M to $6M is pretty easy when its all accounted for with TV money. Add in extra sponsors from the additional exposure and you have a team with a comparable budget to the Mariners or Roar....
For Plague's benefit, this is how I would envisage a 2nd division:
There are currently 90 NPL clubs in Australia.
Tenders would be put out and the best of these, performance and facilities wise, as well as ensuring a geographical spread would be placed into the second division i.e something like this
1. Canberra Olympic (ACT Champions - have their own stadium)
2. Sydney Utd (NSW Champions, own stadium)
3. Blacktown City (NSW R/u, excellent facilities)
4. Edgeworth (NNSW Champions)
5. Brisbane Strikers (QLD Champions, own stadium)
6. Gold Coast City (QLD r/u - could use GC stadium?)
7. Adelaide City (SA Champions, own stadium)
8. Devonport (TAS champions)
9. Bentleigh Greens (VIC Champions)
10. Heidelberg (VIC R/u, own stadium)
11. South Melbourne (VIC 3rd, own stadium)
12. Perth SC (WA Champions, own stadium)
13. Wollongong Wolves (geographical importance and facilities)
Other potentials given their facilities and past success: Melbourne Knights, Canberra FC, Bonnyrigg, Sydney Olympic, APIA, Hakoah, Hamilton, Broadmeadow, West Adelaide, South Hobart, ECU
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by RAM
Recently read that with the new TV deal there have been estimates that the salary cap could increase substantially too.
I have seen a similiar plan too and even ones where there are two conferences (a Northern and a Southern) which would obviously reduce travelling costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
That's the thing with including established clubs, you would be able to hit the ground running sooner rather then later. Whereas if you start a process of trying to create more new franchises from nothing, this could years to get up and running.
I keep saying again and again that true Australian football fans like us on here will have NO problem with these clubs getting in. We've lived it before.Quote:
Originally Posted by stopper2
And again I say the issue is general public perception....I guarantee Channel Nein would report "Greek backed club Sth Melbourne win A-League spot". Australia is becoming very xenophobic.
what happens to a club that's in the a league that's turnover is $6mil but then next season has to operate on a budget of $1Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
Other Geographical significant clubs would be FNQ Heat, NQ Fury, Ipswich area (Western Pride?), Sunny Coast, Macarthur Rams/Campbelltown, Sutherland Sharks, Dandenong, Geelong. Also I know you put Devonport in there coz they won the Tas league but the town is 30,000. It would be like Orange getting a team. If Tassie come in you would have to base it in Hobart, if You use South Hobart then so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
oh my dear lord you can't toss out the 'do you even internet bruh' when you haven't read the post properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
But ill give you a pass on this one because you're not a silly person, you read it wrong.
To explain:
In season 1 of promotion/relegation one of the A-League teams gets relegated correct?
OK lets say its the Jets (because the Jets are trash), and lets say The Melbourne Knights get promoted.
So we now have one former A-League team in the 2nd div in year 2 yeah?
So now the likes of the rest of the 2nd div will be at a distinct competitive disadvantage if Mr Lee decides to continue spending his (seemingly) vast resources.
So yes the rest of the 2nd div will be in a tougher position to compete in year 2.
Do you understand what i was getting at now or no?
As far as the Melbourne Knights are concerned (now playing in the A-League), what are your thoughts on the following:
What stadium should they use?
What licence fee should they pay (or should they pay one to enter div 2 and how much)?.
What makes you so confident that they will be able to within one year (although its prob 6 months between end of season 1 and 2) be able to gain increased corporate support and increased revenue streams from other areas? Because in the 10 years of the A-League we've seen club fail time after time to break even especially in areas outside of capital cities.
Also, where does this $5-6m TV money figure come from? Everything I've read points to a figure closer to $2.5-$2.75m. Thats leaves a lot of tin rattling to get the books balanced.
ok heres a quote from the ffa 2015 tv deal:
Quote:
This season FFA will deliver $2.6 million per club which covers the current salary cap as part of the old deal with clubs forced to spend 90 per cent ($2.340 million) for up to 23 players.
ta.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
Can you put forward your argument for clubs in the 2nd div being allowed to have sub standard* facilities when the original teams had to be compliant from day 1?
*according to A-League criteria
I guess one possibility for existing ethnic clubs to move upward into a second division or higher would be if, upon establishment of this division, these existing clubs gained newfound support locally, not just from the traditional supporter base. And from this were able to shake off the "impression" of exclusivity that many may have felt towards it previously. Another way of saying "build it and they will come" I spose. Some local fans may not want to give up time to watch an NPL team, but might be more encouraged to view a better spectacle of nationwide teams and higher quality football.
another interesting part of the deep dive is that there are quite a few references to exactly how South Melbourne are trying to get into the A-League.
*They were part of a consortium (hmmm just like some on here have suggested) to be the 2nd Melbourne team, but the bid was rejected in favour of the Heart.
*They tried to buy into the Melbourne Heart (before Citeh group took over) but made clear no change to stripe/colours etc would be made to the existing Heart identity.
*They tried to buy into the Mariners when things were falling apart but Charlesworth got his house in order and maintained control.
A small sample size of their intentions but this says to me:
They are happy to be part of a bigger group in order to join the big time (probably realising they can't do it all themselves.
They are happy to be part of the A-League if it means giving up their 'identity'.
This type of attitude and approach is exactly how i would like the 2nd div to be constructed.
From foxsports
Northern Fury FC chairman Rabieh Krayem’s A-League expansion, promotion and relegation proposal
Cheers for posting that.Quote:
Originally Posted by &1gest
See now this is a dude who has done some thinking (and has obviously been in the trenches).
I agree with about 90% of his plan (and no, no plan can ever be perfect).
I still have issues surrounding the stadium compliance and licence fees the original A-League clubs had to abide by, and obviously I have a problem with clubs who won't look big picture.
But heck, anyone at least throwing up some viable solutions gets my vote.
It will only be a matter of time before Couscous abandons us to become Nth Qld Furies No#1 fan.
I very much doubt the current HAL clubs will agree to forgo their guarantee of top division football for the introduction of promotion/relegation. Unless there is some kind of $$ encentive.
The solution that the Fury CEO has presented solves that problem. Having an established 2nd Division with promotion to the HAL based off meeting criteria and possibly winning the 2nd Div until the current licence agreements end.
Regarding what teams should be included, you have to think about what is the best option.
A - Clubs like South Melbourne and Sydney United growing to a 10k membership base and meeting the $$$ and facility requirements of a HAL/HBL team.
Or
B - Starting brand new teams in these same areas from scratch with the billionaire/consortium paying the bills.
B worked at the start of the HAL because there was nothing else, and now 11 years later the deep rooted connections have been formed with the new clubs. Even less time for WSW, but the point is, there was a need for freshness back then.
There isn't such a need right now, except of course in a few areas where they are crying out for a national team - Canberra United for example, and they already have a small base with the WPL team.
I think a mixed approach is key, support the high achieving NPL teams to reach HAL and fill the holes in the key areas - Canberra, Geelong etc.
good question, and the counter to that could always be "team X only has X members despite history/exposure etc etc when a plastic team like wanderers has way more members due to the model used to create them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman
From what I've read South Melbourne are keen as mustard to be involved, and don't seem too hung up on colours/badges etc. Surely the FFA could mash them into the 2nd div and still have it done their way.
It's like Rabieh reads the foz just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Premy
How is it possible that you wrote exactly what I was thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Camel