And coach, I reckon Gary still fancies another crack.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
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And coach, I reckon Gary still fancies another crack.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Same as what happens in the Championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nou Camp
The players are offloaded in favour of cheaper ones from the NPL, often the offloaded players go to promoted clubs.
Bigger clubs, ala Juventus or Newcastle Utd retain the players from the 1st division and have more of a chance of being promoted straight back up.
It happens in 99% of leagues in the world, only us and the US are the exceptions.
Villareal is from a town of 50,000 and play Champions league regularly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Camel
If you're good enough, you're big enough.
If a HAL club can sustain its spending on relegation and get promoted back then so what? This is what happens all over the world. Look at when Juventus were relegated but retained most of their squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
1. The Knights own their stadium - they only need small crowds of about 4000+ to be solvent.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
2. Licence fees shouldn't apply imo, or if they have to, then it should be vastly reduced for a second tier competition. Say $500K.
3. Because these clubs have done it before, most have the know how and its sink or swim. If a club can't do it (which happens from time to time around the world) then another will step into their place - ala Portsmouth and Blackpool and Rangers and et al
4. The figures were based upon what I was hearing about the new deal. If its say $2.5M now, that a lot of wages covered straight up. Most of the clubs have their own stadiums so each how game becomes a profit making exercise in terms of gate and food even with small crowds. Corporate sponsorship would easily reach $500K-$1M conservatively, when they have national exposure and FTA+ Fox TV exposure. The reality is that regional clubs will struggle, but that's the challenge for us. We have to be better run than clubs from bigger centres - reality of life.
Yeah but it is the main centre of a small province of near 600,000 people. Comparing Devonport in Tassie to Villareal is no like for like.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
Its the 2nd division. The requirements should not be as stringent as that of the HAL. You could delay promotion for say 2-3 years and include conditional promotion based upon a facilities criteria ala South Korea as well. There are options. But the reality is that most of these clubs have half decent facilities already, and given the incentive to, may be able to improve upon them in due course.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
HAL clubs are not profitable for the most part due to have to lease stadia and lose income streams from the sale of food/drinks. Most of the 2nd tier clubs I have put forward do not have this issue. Yes they are not world class venues, but they are less of a solvency risk than most HAL teams - a Jets fan should be acutely aware of this....
Really? Tassie is what 500,000 and if they had one team to support in the HAL wouldn't it be semi-comparable? I'm not suggesting for a moment that Devonport or South Hobart are going to be regularly playing ACL or even HAL finals, but they do have a broader supporter base opportunity than a mere 30,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Camel
Geographical size difference is massive. Devonport to Hobart is 3 1/2 drive. You drive that long From anywhere in Spain and your talking half the country. If you have a Tassie team it has to be in Hobart which has 220k and roughly half the population. Anywhere else and there is no point. Place is much bigger than people thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by RAM
turnovers reduce dropping divisions yes of course, im not that naïveQuote:
Originally Posted by RAM
but they wouldn't be dropping over 80% as what some people suggest going from current a league turnovers of around $6mil to 2nd division with a turnover of $1mil
ok, so now you get what I'm saying, and you seem to agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
Lets move on, theres more to unpack.
Will a 2nd div increase Tv $$$? 2 extra teams in aleague probs will.
At some point we will have a tier 2 comp.
I think a few of those that are ready for a hit at the 2nd level and thus be pushing for a tilt in the HAL will need to re-brand a little as well as commit to criteria.
ok lets do this one at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
1. But is it A-League standard? Lighting/seating etc? Id actually have no problem if 2nd div clubs had lower compliance standards but once they hit the big time they need to play at an A-League level stadium (hence getting a big lease etc). So they are gonna need way more than 4000 crowds to be solvent. You think they can get the numbers? How do they get them? Because everyone wants them to 'stay the same' yet as they are they are getting 4000.
2. I don't think licence fees should apply either once promo/relegation starts, but the simple fact is the existing clubs have paid big big money to join in and then go on to lose even more. To then have new clubs turn up and get an easier ride in doesnt sit well with me either. The 2nd div doesnt get off the ground without the approval of the existing clubs, so they are gonna want to see these new clubs pony up as well.
3. So you want the clubs to operate as is, then if they make the big time 'then' they have to be compliant? What if they can't? You want court cases and appeals? Look at the farce the local comp has agreeing on a compliance standard. Im saying get a rock solid compliance standard from day one (which means these smaller clubs WILL have to finance facilities etc) well before they see the money come back in. and if then never go up how are they ever going to pay the bills?
4. OK, heres my big big problem with a lot of you guys. You are throwing figures around which are such pie in the sky its not funny.
In Spain, the 2nd div gets 10% of the TV money to spread between their teams.
In England the Championship teams get approx 5% of the TV money compared to the EPL sides. Even using the best case scenario that the 2nd div even gets a TV deal you are looking at somewhere between $125k - $250k. Even double that and its still bugger all. and you guys are always mentioning South Melbourne and Melb Knights, but what about team 10-12 on that list? Who are they and why would the want to be part of it. Remember when the first A-League TV deal was being bandied around SBS offered to show the games but the FFA had to pay the production costs. Yes it was going to COST the FFA money to run the games, let alone actually derive any income from them.
yet you think the TV networks are gonna say "oh sweet, heres a bunch of money and airtime for Melbourne Knights v North Queensland Fury".
So heres what im reading you guys think is plausible.
Clubs join the 2nd div.
Clubs pay a licence fee.
Clubs pay significant money up front to get stadiums compliant.
From season 2 clubs will always be up against a former A-League team that will have a significant financial advantage over them.
Why would a club want to be part of that?
It sounds like a sure fire road to ruin for most of them.
And I know you guys are all like 'sink or swim' 'thats life' 'too bad' etc, but sorry but thats a shitty attitude when you on one hand are trying to grow the game, but then are more than happy for these clubs to go broke.
I think a lot of you on here have a very romantic idea of how football could be in Australia. I wish it was too, but the simple fact is you aren't dealing in reality.
Whoever was talking about Japans 100 year plan had the right idea, because its gonna take a shitload of time and money, and at the moment it aint here.
Continually thinking the failures of the past will somehow be the way of the future astounds me.
Team who comes first in div 2 vs team who comes last in div one over two legs. Winner plays next season in div one and loser in div 2. Just a thought
Question around salary cap.
You would think the salary cap would be much higher in the a-league than the 2nd div. So what happens when a team comes up, get much bigger salary cap sign players to multi-year deals then get relegated?
as much as i like this, and it fits into the aussie "finals" type history, it would seem a bit unfair that a full strength A-League level squad goes up against an inferior team. Winning promotion means they 2nd div club gets up to A-League level with players etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by monz6
parachute payements and relegation clauses in contracts.Quote:
Originally Posted by lil_masi
theyre common place.
an EPL team gets booted, they get some money to soften the blow and cover costs such as you raised, and a smart club would have clauses that either terminate a players contract if the club is relegated, or the wage is severely diminished.
from memory, among other things, not having relegation clauses in players contracts is one reason why Leeds have never really come back from being relegated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lil_masi
no, the salary cap would have to be much less based on the difference in FFA grant/tv money/general revenue.
from my understanding a lot of players O/S have release clauses in their contracts activated by relegation. This would probably be win/win as the club doesnt have to pay higher wages.
the bigger issue is with support staff/club employees who may be surplus to requirements in the 2nd div. good luck being the person who has to sack someone for no fault of their own.
I'm guessing when a 2nd div comes in a lot of contracts would then have clauses based around relegation, either to end the contract early or change the salary accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by lil_masi
I was in Tasmania last year, on a driving holiday.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Camel
Devonport isn't that far from Launceston, being a major centre with a considerable catchment area.
If any event, South Hobart is prob the only TAS team capable atm of having the facilities etc of competing nationally.
yep - happens all over the worldQuote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Their contracts would be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
I've been involved with companies that have had employment contracts subject to grant money - similar principle.
oh no doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
would be interesting with CEO's/coaches etc too. Clubs decide to hang onto to someone earning wages they maybe can't afford vs saving the cash and going with a cheaper option but lessening the chances of going back up.
Need to aim high with attendances and look at potential growth.
Hard to believe but every current side has had a home crowd of at least 20,000 at least once. Except CCM who have a couple of 19k crowds and Perth who we know can do it if they get it right (best 16k plus).
I think you apply the FFA Cup standard across the board. Expecting everyone to play at Suncorp or other large stadiums with no atmosphere is counterproductive imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
As long as there is sufficient seating in a grandstand and lighting to FFA Cup levels, then this should be enough imo.
In terms of crowd numbers, these clubs were getting that much or more in the NSL and its silly to think they would get NPL sized crowds playing in a national competition with teams like MV or WSW visiting. The bigger the stage the bigger the crowds. They don't need huge crowds to be solvent - if they did they would have folded decades ago like the Breakers.
Agreed, but the licence fee is to enter a second division with conditional promotion/relegation - ala the model suggested by the NQF chair. In this case it must be reduced, as it is a lesser "right" or "privilege" to join the 2nd division.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
No, you mis-read me. Have a minimum standard for the 2nd division, and conditional promotion based upon a relaxed standard at HAL level.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
Its not pie in the sky. Again, I think you've misunderstood me. There are 2 separate issues - $$$ required in the 2nd division and $$$ required to be competitive in the HAL. The TV deals dictate this. ATM the HAL clubs get millions from the TV deal. A promoted team would get a slice of the pie from the HAL deal which would cover the salary cap payments - enough to make them competitive like us or the CCM in terms of a squad. The fact that most own their own stadiums put them in front of us as they have more revenue streams.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
In the 2nd division, I'm not suggesting that they'll get a big TV deal. Just enough to cover travel would be sufficient imo. Teams then operate on existing budgets, with the additional income they will be able to attract from sponsors in a televised, national setting. IMO this would be enough for the above-mentioned clubs to find a budget of close to or for some exceeding $1M. The added excitement of potential promotion would undoubtedly increase crowds for these clubs.
No. I don't. Clubs join 2nd division, pay reduced licence fee. Only join 2nd division based upon facilities criteria ensuring minimum standard. Relegation to be phased in after few years, including years of expansion up to about 14-16 teams in HAL.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
[QUOTE=plague;165430]We've never had P/R, not even in the NSL. A semi pro/minimum pro 2nd division is being realist. Its not pie in the sky, or romantic - I am a realist and a pessimist if anything. The time has come that we bite the bullet and say that the HAL in its current form has served its purpose of mainstreaming the game, but we need to draw upon our grassroots potential to take the game further. A closed comp of 10 clubs, with 80% of the clubs being under financial stress or making huge losses is not sustainable. A bigger TV deal will come from more teams, and drawing upon the existing grassroots will do that, whilst providing a pathway for more players and more fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
That's up to the clubs and their owners/committees.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
OK firstly cheers for your responses. It def cleared things up as your answers in regards to the Fury dudes plan makes way more sense to me rather than a straight up promotion relegation.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
I def disagree though in terms of stadiums. I can't see any way in Griffs green earth that the FFA let anyway play at a "suburban" looking ground.
My dream is for company owned, Bluetongue sized shared stadiums (with 4 sides.....and less gypos) especially in the big cities that multiple teams can share. Then piggyback onto the big stadium for your derby/finals etc etc.
Its def been a focus of MLS for teams to own their own homes and they are built to a league standard. It also means long term thinking and money. But as I've noted elsewhere, team owners aint gonna invest massive amounts of money in stadiums with limited guarantee of being in the comp.
speaking of stadiums. Gypoland cost $28m (in 2000 $) to build and seats 20,000.
would love to see FFA/Melbourne clubs sit down see if they could pull a similar venture off.
The US is much bigger market with much more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
I think its unrealistic to expect every club in our top 2 divisions to have a stadium like Bluetongue. I would have a slightly tweaked Knights Stadium as the minimum standard for HAL and a Broadmeadow standard for the 2nd division.
The money, nor population, simply isn't here in Australia to demand or require such stadia. 8,000 people at Hunter Stadium is a shit atmosphere, but 8,000 at Hindmarsh or Knights stadium and the place is rocking. Smaller grounds (and more profitable!!) make for better atmosphere and better TV. Sure you can move bigger games to bigger stadiums. But a capacity of 30,000 or 20,000 is pointless for a second division club, and most HAL clubs at the moment.
What about AAMI Park?Quote:
Originally Posted by plague
I do no know why you are arguing over stadiums. All the old NSL sides have got decent enough stadiums for the 2nd tier level. Most of them if not all of them can play out of the A League stadiums if they were promoted. Eg Sydney Utd have a decent ground, if they were promoted they could play out of Parramatta. The Melbourne sides would have the same, eg Knights stadium is ok for 2nd tier, they could play out of AAMI park if promoted. Same goes for the Brisbane sides etc. In fact I can't think of any side in the 2nd tier that would have a problem with stadiums to play at.
I understand the US population etc, my comment was based on the governing body saying, "you want in our comp, here is the criteria". whatever the specifics are is malleable, but there is a set structure. Also the american clubs have a much bigger representation running the game, so yes they are acting for the most part in self interest, but every bit of success means success for everyone, and thats not a bad model. the biggest gripe against the FFA from the likes of Tinks, Sage, Palmer was the lack of representation they had in governing the game they bankrolled. and as much as a few of those blokes were utter shitcunce, i always thoughts that point was legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAM
I used Bluetongue as it was a much more economical stadium to build. if i remember correctly AAMI was a very expensive place. And yes id be happy to see every Melbourne team at all levels play out of AAMI, but my point again was it would be better to have a dedicated, federation/team owned venue.
heck, the AFL just shelled out $200m to own Etihad just so their clubs had more stability and lower costs using the joint. and yes soccer doesnt have that sort of money, but its more the mindset that i love. the AFL could have easily said "too bad, do your own rent deal and if you die then who cares", but they use their money much more wisely. plus they use their club boardmembers clout to lobby governments for money. the AFL is smart man, theres a lot of lessons that can be learned from them.
yeah id love to see Northern NSW build a No#2 oval sized stadium all seater 12k capacity play all inner city NPL games there and the Jets play all non finals games there. NPL sides get the revenue on matchday and pay a % for maintenance rather than every club in the city trying to keep a ground up to standard for 10/12 games a year.
well, id love to see someone think of an idea like that. Rugby seemed to pull it off pretty quickly, surely the resources/minds of FFA/NNSW?council/state govt could think of something?
i wouldn't say we are 'arguing' about stadiums. people def have different ideas on what would be acceptable for a national comp,and i can see their point. and yes i absolutely think all teams in capital cities should play out of generic stadiums like AAMI. But they need to realise they start paying BIG rents in that case and all im saying is that i wish long term the FFA and clubs pooled their resources and built their own idea of 'AAMI park' to make the individual clubs more cost effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Champ
1st annd last direct.... 2nd and 2nd last playoff..Quote:
Originally Posted by monz6
Attachment 1341Attachment 1342Attachment 1343
Xamax Stadium 10 000 seat... shopping center incoorporated. Hey lowy Westfields... lol
Attachment 1344Attachment 1345
FC Thun - 10 000. Just outside of town. walking distance from trainstation.. Shopping center next door.. Massive Parking underground
Attachment 1346Attachment 1347Attachment 1347
Tissot Arena...
Multi use.. Ice hockey rinks and shopping. Ice Hockey Stadium.... Football has space 5200 with options can be extended to 10000
Above posts.. stadium can be small but yet professional.. (FFA would approve)
Plus if can build a new stadium in switzerland with the little amount of space we have.. im sure there are options in Aus....
Promotion and Relegation has to come for the simple reason of competition... (the league cannot develop if that doesnt come in..) This isnt Rugby league or AFL that the game is really only played here. thus the best talent stays here and thus the competition can improve...
Also, why not a-league youth teams in this 2nd div? Obvs no promotion but after the fury 6 year plan if we have 14-16 a-league teams if half of them want to have a youth team then let them play your top npl teams. Maybe mandate every youth team has to be in the lower divisions within 10 years and by then with the 'smaller' npl clubs you've got a ready made 3rd division.
Spitballing.
Miron Bleiberg leading the charge for a 2nd Brisbane team.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/...3c2ce7e884c9c1
Not sure if Miron and his band of bogans can handle another team. They're all the "fkn smashim" crowdQuote:
Originally Posted by The Postman
Completely disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk
There is quite a lot of Football fans in Brisbane that felt disconnected from Hollandia since the beginning of the A-League and that has only grown even more since the Barkies.
IMO Miron and his cohort should jump in bed with Strikers as I see them as the only viable option as a second Brisbane side.