Grassroots Football

[sammydog]

Excellent post.
Cheers for the feedback (am i right in that you are part of running a club?).

Club President.

Again, the SAP thing is an ever evolving beast. the clubs freely admit it. Hopefully they take on the Victorian changes, it can only be a good thing.
Has your club been slugged extra in your lighting costs yet? One of the massive increases over the past few seasons for inner city clubs has been a huge increase in the cost of maintaining and running their lights. we def have heard about clubs cutting back on training nights to save cash rather than bump up regos.

We are a Lake Macquarie club and pay the full electricity costs at the ground, so the lights are part of the power bill we get.

Our lights would run 5 nights a week during the season and at the moment, 2 nights a week during the off-season. The lights are in desperate need of maintenance, but that's a bit out of our budget at the moment. We are focusing on ground upgrades at the moment.

Also, yes, the coaching will be a massive problem. its ok for well intentioned mums and dads to run the kids around on a weeknight. and to be fair there are some legit good coaches teaching the kids out there. but yeah, if you want that to improve, and to be consistent across the board, coaches need to be trained. it costs money, and if you multiply that out and add it to the extra time needed to be invested by 'parents' wanting to coach, then does that deter more coaches than it encourages?

but yeah, the costs of grounds and coaches would have to come back to the rego. agree FFA/NNSW 'should' make it easier, but cmon, are they gonna go handing money back to the game?

We budget so we can allocate money to coaches to undertake coaching courses. The biggest issue is getting people to do courses. As much as money, I think time is an issue for parents.

just out of curiosity, does seeing the loss of juniors to a program like SAP make your club determined to be involved in SAP, or make you less interested in juniors knowing they might leave?
id assume both answers would be valid in certain circumstances, and hopefully if its the latter then something can be done to avoid it, because obviously thats the exact opposite of whats good for the game.

Personally, given the chance I would like to move towards SAP and have both elite and community teams.

[Retired01]

can def say that to the kids, the games mattered so the referreeing is important. would love to have seen a couple of sessions with interested parents and a NNSW rep on the nights they train out at the Speers Pt facility to help them out. can only assume that once full field kicks in soon, then proper refs will be appointed.

I very much enjoyed the fact that there were multiple clubs playing the so called hub every weekend. It gave everyone, Coaches and parents the time to see just what levels other teams were at.
To be brutally honest there was one team this season that we all desperately tried to beat. Even as a parent I encouraged my son and his mate that they need to play extra well that game and saw many other parents doing the same. Which is awesome as it lends to the competition being competitive and the boys striving to be better (If you don't want winners you should be playing community league).

My son has been selected again and very much enjoying the banter around the future of our kids.

[plague]

My son has been selected again and very much enjoying the banter around the future of our kids.

yeah an underrated part of all this has been how much the kids are enjoying the competition, and the challenge of it all.
Plague Jnr has played his whole life and he's never had so much fun playing (even though its much more 'serious' now). His coaches are awesome and really know how to inspire him.
ive dreaded it from the start thinking it was going to be full of asshole kids and even bigger asshole parents, but its been the opposite.

i reffed quite a few games and the respect the players, coaches and (98%) of parents showed was outstanding. if anything, these young fellas are excellent ambassadors for their clubs and its pretty awesome as a parent to watch.


except of course in 12 months time when Plague Jnr has a change of heart and wants to take up prefessional breakdancing or something.

[Negative Police]

For us, ground use fees don't go up if we play more games or the season is expanded. Only difference in cost may be the electricity bill for running the lights. Perhaps if you are paying coaches there is a cost to be incurred, but at the moment I cant see many mini-roos coaches being paid.

Extending a mini-roos season doesn't need to cost money. Getting coaches educated does.

If we want to improve coaching and get more coaches accredited, follow the Football Victoria model. Open SAP up but have strict guidelines and make clubs apply again each year to weed out the non-compliant ones.

If SAP was open to all clubs, you would have clubs with aspirations actually able to increase their coaching education and attract (or at very least retain) their best kids. In this scenario mini-roos clubs could have a two tiered system within their clubs. Kids that want the extra move into SAP, and those that don't stay in community.

You could argue clubs should already be up-skilling coaches, and I think you will find a lot are, but if you aren't a SAP program no matter how good your coaches are, the kids won't stay.

Your club could have done as I suggested earlier. For the 6's to 8's have more skills days either side of the season. So have 4-6 weeks of skills training and 2 games on Sat to reinforce what they learnt during the week. Coaches only need a Skill Training Certificate which is one day course $68.

Also 9's & 10's SAP coaches do not need the C youth licence yet. It is desirable. You can have a TD to oversee. Maybe ZPL ZL1 clubs should be allowed a SAP team in order to keep club kids. And if there are way too many teams then NF, HV and Mac clubs can for 2 comps. I aslo think that eventually most talented kids seem to end up at the same 2 clubs anyway.

[plague]

I aslo think that eventually most talented kids seem to end up at the same 2 clubs anyway.

lets just assume we are talking about the same 2 clubs here. and yes, they were very strong this season. but there was another club that was every bit as good. this club has gone out and poached (sorry...invited to trial) even better kids than they had and i expect them to be the standard this year.
then theres another club who beat both of the 2 clubs you talked about, and a third club who i saw play them really really well.

thing is, the 'other' 3 clubs i mentioned all have massive junior bases, and seem to be taking the SAP thing really seriously.
if they play their cards right, they should all be the power in the NPL within the next 5 years or so, because by the time these kids turn 17, the 'lure' of the traditional big clubs wont be as strong if they've been brought through in a dominant environment.


the 2 clubs i assume you're talking about dont seem to care about it too much, it will be interesting to see if they have the same pull in a few years time.

[sammydog]

Your club could have done as I suggested earlier. For the 6's to 8's have more skills days either side of the season. So have 4-6 weeks of skills training and 2 games on Sat to reinforce what they learnt during the week. Coaches only need a Skill Training Certificate which is one day course $68.

Also 9's & 10's SAP coaches do not need the C youth licence yet. It is desirable. You can have a TD to oversee. Maybe ZPL ZL1 clubs should be allowed a SAP team in order to keep club kids. And if there are way too many teams then NF, HV and Mac clubs can for 2 comps. I aslo think that eventually most talented kids seem to end up at the same 2 clubs anyway.

We've actually set up clinics that started this school term for kids 4-7 and 7-12. We will run them each school term and see how they go. Demand will be bigger outside of the season, but it sounds like some are keen during the season.

Turn out has been better than expected for a first session, so we will see where it takes us.

Its a good point about ZPL and ZL1 clubs. Typically for us, by the time our teams reach U12 they have been whittled down as players move to development programs and we struggle to keep teams above this age. The flow on is we don't have a big flow of juniors into ZL.

I think this year if we pull a couple of things off, we may reverse this, but the ability to actually have a SAP (which we would jump at) would make retention of the SAP years a lot better. Obviously the best kids will still want to (and should) play NPL or NL1, but I think we would retain a lot more than we currently do.

[Goatscheese]

Not sure why we have decided to go back focusing just on SAP when that is the entire issue. Though not surprised when the response to my last post willfully ignored what was typed and went on a tangent

This article sums it up well; More players playing for longer (no point having a small pool of players), bottom-up approach (which we don't have and is that we need more kids doing it to increase the available pool of talent)

https://www.goal.com/en-au/news/matt...o1cg27zo87vq4f

[Retired01]

lets just assume we are talking about the same 2 clubs here. and yes, they were very strong this season. but there was another club that was every bit as good. this club has gone out and poached (sorry...invited to trial) even better kids than they had and i expect them to be the standard this year.
then theres another club who beat both of the 2 clubs you talked about, and a third club who i saw play them really really well.

thing is, the 'other' 3 clubs i mentioned all have massive junior bases, and seem to be taking the SAP thing really seriously.
if they play their cards right, they should all be the power in the NPL within the next 5 years or so, because by the time these kids turn 17, the 'lure' of the traditional big clubs wont be as strong if they've been brought through in a dominant environment.


the 2 clubs i assume you're talking about dont seem to care about it too much, it will be interesting to see if they have the same pull in a few years time.

That was very confusing.
As a parent of what I believe to be probably mid range team the better teams were
Hamilton
1 Very strong team which I know came across from Warners Bay, Their other team also very strong
They kept them all for next season

Lambton
2 very good teams and had more trials this year to build onto an already strong base

Broadmeadow
1 very good team and another mid table team which were all Broadmeadow Juniors

[plague]

Not sure why we have decided to go back focusing just on SAP when that is the entire issue. Though not surprised when the response to my last post willfully ignored what was typed and went on a tangent

This article sums it up well; More players playing for longer (no point having a small pool of players), bottom-up approach (which we don't have and is that we need more kids doing it to increase the available pool of talent)

https://www.goal.com/en-au/news/matt...o1cg27zo87vq4f

we are not just going back to SAP all the time.
What we are doing is getting the points of view of parents who are in the middle of the development system putting down on paper the ins and outs of the current program for people to understand. we also have the president of a club offering up a unique perspective on what its like trying to answer the questions you are asking.

now I read that article, and it pretty much states exactly what youve said. and look, i dont think theres anyone on here that disagrees wiht the premise that more kids + more football = better long term results.

but.

the article doesnt offer any solutions. its just states the obvious. all ive ever asked is how do we realistically go about implementing what that article brings up.

if we need more ground availability, ok. who pays for the 12 month access (and who fights cricket to kick them off)?
we need more/better coaches, ok, do they work for free, who pays them?

the article looked at the Japanese approach. now personally i love the Japanese approach to their football program, and their 100 year plan initiative.
but from reading, it looks like Spain and Germany start junior development a little later. whos approach is better? do we have any injury/burnout data on kids starting so early and on artificial pitches like they do in Japan?

plenty of questions dude, feel free to help answer them. i appreciate anyone on here to give their perspective.



(oh and if you hate people going on tangents, steer clear of the tennis thread and the politics thread).

[plague]

That was very confusing.
As a parent of what I believe to be probably mid range team the better teams were
Hamilton
1 Very strong team which I know came across from Warners Bay, Their other team also very strong
They kept them all for next season

Lambton
2 very good teams and had more trials this year to build onto an already strong base

Broadmeadow
1 very good team and another mid table team which were all Broadmeadow Juniors

hahaha, confusing is what i do best (mostly to myself).
your top 3 teams are exactly how I saw it.

the other 2 clubs i thought did well and have a huge upside (based on junior numbers) were New Lambton and Valentine.
Also thought Edgeworth were excellent and probably the biggest improvers over the whole season.

[Retired01]

To me the base skill requirements worked - From my observations the weaker teams showed great improvement bringing the teams closer together at season end. Proving the system works where there is easy development to be made in core skills.
Those top teams were strong all year and in my opinion now getting into areas of football strategy so they were only making small increments of improvement across the season. (Simply my observation as we all witnessed the way they played the ball around and moved with structure)
For its kick off season I felt it worked well bringing the overall level of football up.
NNSW has added a new level in the TSP which will be excellent for those kids now at a strategic level to move forward also.

I feel Lake Macquarie and Valentine were the biggest improvers football wise. Where other teams (2 clubs come to mind) games moved to more physical (that's the polite word) game to cover there lack of ability. That's simply a reflection of coaching though not the kids and I'm sure parents can assist to resolve that.

[The Dunster]

The biggest issue is losing kids to other codes rather than not starting them early enough.
When I was a kid the best footballers tended to play cricket in the summer and either Aussie rules or football in the winter with Little Athletics thrown into the mix as well.
The names won't mean anything to anyone here but the best junior players I remember either became cricketers or played VFL / AFL or Rugby League / Union.
I still think it's beneficial for kids to play as many sports as they can but making football as attractive as other codes or sports as a career is still an uphill battle when it comes to recruiting the best junior athletes.
Like it or not - we have the kids capable of winning us a world cup but unfortunately most of them will be lost to other codes / sports.
I think it's changing a little but not enough - hopefully these programs and others can address the problem better than we did in my day.

[plague]

NNSW has added a new level in the TSP which will be excellent for those kids now at a strategic level to move forward also.

What's the TSP?

[MFKS]

we are not just going back to SAP all the time.
What we are doing is getting the points of view of parents who are in the middle of the development system putting down on paper the ins and outs of the current program for people to understand. we also have the president of a club offering up a unique perspective on what its like trying to answer the questions you are asking.

now I read that article, and it pretty much states exactly what youve said. and look, i dont think theres anyone on here that disagrees wiht the premise that more kids + more football = better long term results.

but.

the article doesnt offer any solutions. its just states the obvious. all ive ever asked is how do we realistically go about implementing what that article brings up.

if we need more ground availability, ok. who pays for the 12 month access (and who fights cricket to kick them off)?
we need more/better coaches, ok, do they work for free, who pays them?

the article looked at the Japanese approach. now personally i love the Japanese approach to their football program, and their 100 year plan initiative.
but from reading, it looks like Spain and Germany start junior development a little later. whos approach is better? do we have any injury/burnout data on kids starting so early and on artificial pitches like they do in Japan?

plenty of questions dude, feel free to help answer them. i appreciate anyone on here to give their perspective.



(oh and if you hate people going on tangents, steer clear of the tennis thread and the politics thread).

That should be led by the FFA

They should be more than happy to pick fights and start treading on the toes of other sports

We are the biggest player in the room and the FFA currently spend far too much time being a subservient bitch cowering in the corner to AFL NRL and Cricket

All activities of our sport should be geared to what is best to our sport and if it puts us in competition with someone else then.we should embrace it asnd not back down

If it means we have to trample on crickets season for pitch access then we do it

Time we put ourselves first and gave a one fingered salure to the haters

[plague]

That should be led by the FFA

They should be more than happy to pick fights and start treading on the toes of other sports

We are the biggest player in the room and the FFA currently spend far too much time being a subservient bitch cowering in the corner to AFL NRL and Cricket

All activities of our sport should be geared to what is best to our sport and if it puts us in competition with someone else then.we should embrace it asnd not back down

If it means we have to trample on crickets season for pitch access then we do it

Time we put ourselves first and gave a one fingered salure to the haters

not even sure they need to "tread on toes". They just need to own their own facilities.
Then, like the AFL, you control your own destiny.
They have done that at Speers Point, and its being utilised for the development of youth football as well as catering to social players and elite players.
awesome.
now id love to see one of those same facilities at Natoinal Park, or the tennis courts at Broadmeadow, and one up the Valley too.

but.

whos gonna pay for it?
all the while FFA not having enough cash to fund their own Stadiums, or much other infrastructure.

There are battles to be won all over the place, and the FFA doesnt 'seem' to have the resources to take every challenge on.

Just throwing out a "the FFA should fix it" is both lazy and naive.

[MFKS]

not even sure they need to "tread on toes". They just need to own their own facilities.
Then, like the AFL, you control your own destiny.
They have done that at Speers Point, and its being utilised for the development of youth football as well as catering to social players and elite players.
awesome.
now id love to see one of those same facilities at Natoinal Park, or the tennis courts at Broadmeadow, and one up the Valley too.

but.

whos gonna pay for it?
all the while FFA not having enough cash to fund their own Stadiums, or much other infrastructure.

There are battles to be won all over the place, and the FFA doesnt 'seem' to have the resources to take every challenge on.

Just throwing out a "the FFA should fix it" is both lazy and naive.

This is though still their fault

AFL and Football are where they are right now due to the management of their codes in the last 40 years

That we have no assets says a lot about the failings of Lowy over the last 15 years. He should understand the concept of on asset with his wealth but he leaves the game with nothing

As for your point it is not the FFAs fault.

FMD it is their ****ing model that we have to endure

It is their decisions that have led us to the point we have a closed shop top flight with no 2nd division a game that is shown on a dead end entity in Pay TV so loses exposure to the bulk of the ****ing public a divided supporter base between old soccer and new football junior rego fees are sky high NCIP divided the code on race and everything aboyt junior development isnt about development it is about creating avenues for parasites to suck money out of the code by being employed in football etc


No these guys running the game have been asleep at the wheel for so long to allow all this shit to occur

[Retired01]

What's the TSP?

I don't actually know what it is for certain
Talent Selection Program??

I rang a friend to get the details..as best I could. (still didn't ask what TSP actually stood for)

Clubs were asked to nominate potential kids wanting to participate. Then NNSW selected a core group to trial and go into this higher program next year
Trial is next week.

[Negative Police]

TSP Talent Support Program. At this stage 1 night a week at Speersy.

I think this is a way to sort the 300 players into around 30 for future NNSW teams can be chosen to represent the area. Also to push the best in the age at this time.

[Negative Police]

It is their decisions that have led us to the point we have a closed shop top flight with no 2nd division a game that is shown on a dead end entity in Pay TV so loses exposure to the bulk of the ****ing public a divided supporter base between old soccer and new football junior rego fees are sky high NCIP divided the code on race and everything aboyt junior development isnt about development it is about creating avenues for parasites to suck money out of the code by being employed in football etc

Incorrect. The game was a basket case before lowy, no 2nd div, not paytv, no interest from 98% of the country. It was a lot cheaper because there was nothing to pay for.
And we scraped a decent national team together despite the non existence of skills set pathways. Thank god for determined parents.
Lowy put the national competition on the map. Sure it isnt near where we'd like it but a great job to get it started. And did your team get a word changed in their name? oh no Tsunami stuff. Now take a tissue MFKleenex.

[380]

Overpopulated pathways with no other motive than to raise money. You can't find a good kid now with potential because he or she is lost in a crowd of average revenue raisers.