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Thread: The Politics/Religion/Conspiracies Deathmatch Thread

  1. #4481
    Senior Member Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    Italy can barely control their border now thanks to the mass immigration open border policies of the EU

    No the problem is despite the pandemic issue of Corona the allocating of care is arbitrarily decided and restricted under your socialist medical system. It is an inherent major flaw of your philiosophy you advocate for. You are a actually distancing yourself from its short coming when it is pointed out instead of owning it



    I said it could well be a plot to election tamper. The Democrats did their fair share of it in 2016 and still lost anyway
    The fact that their healthcare is social rather private has zero effect on the number of cases. Open borders also aren't the main cause because most other European nations have the same border policies and because they closed borders sooner and enacted social distancing and quarantines they have a much much smaller number of cases.

    The number of cases is too much for the hospitals to handle, this is also a government planning issue. But again, if the government had listened to warnings and been as proactive as other nations, they wouldn't have the same number of cases and be as overburdened in their hospitals as they are now.

    Having private healthcare would have zero effect non the situation at this stage. Once we get to a recovery stage you can argue pros and cons for private/universal.
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  2. #4482
    Senior Member Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    Italy biggest problem is being part of the EU

    No currency no borders reduction in supplies etc

    They in a lot worse state because they don't have 100% sovereignty than they would if they were not part of the EU
    Why does Germany have the same money, the same border controls, Universal Healthcare but has one of the lowest death rates?

    The answer is that they have a superb leader who organised testing facilities immediately and social distancing very quick. Now they have border controls and are catching cases early.
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  3. #4483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Those people who are young and healthy and look after themselves (for the most part) aren't in danger from the virus.

    Why does sympathy need to be shown to those who have made the decision to have poor health or grow to an old age?
    No we are talking about access to healthcare in the USA

    Don't divert like a leftist

    Stay on subject

  4. #4484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
    Why does Germany have the same money, the same border controls, Universal Healthcare but has one of the lowest death rates?

    The answer is that they have a superb leader who organised testing facilities immediately and social distancing very quick. Now they have border controls and are catching cases early.
    You do realise the Germans and French are the 2 benefiting the most from the EU??

    You could argue that Germany are doing what they failed to do in the War by conquering Europe politically and not by force

    Nations like Italy and Spain are struggling under it

    Don't be surprised if the EU falls apart in the next 5 years

  5. #4485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
    The fact that their healthcare is social rather private has zero effect on the number of cases. Open borders also aren't the main cause because most other European nations have the same border policies and because they closed borders sooner and enacted social distancing and quarantines they have a much much smaller number of cases.

    The number of cases is too much for the hospitals to handle, this is also a government planning issue. But again, if the government had listened to warnings and been as proactive as other nations, they wouldn't have the same number of cases and be as overburdened in their hospitals as they are now.

    Having private healthcare would have zero effect non the situation at this stage. Once we get to a recovery stage you can argue pros and cons for private/universal.
    Great diversion

    Why not just say

    Let's not discuss social medicine v user pays right now because you can beat me over the head with its major flaw which is on show

    You got government officials and bureaucrats deciding who lives and dies and who gets treatment and who doesn't



    What a wonderful world you aspire to

  6. #4486
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    No we are talking about access to healthcare in the USA

    Don't divert like a leftist

    Stay on subject
    I'm not diverting. I haven't changed my argument from my first reply, which you decided to divert around like a leftist.

  7. #4487
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    Italy biggest problem is being part of the EU

    No currency no borders reduction in supplies etc

    They in a lot worse state because they don't have 100% sovereignty than they would if they were not part of the EU
    Absolutely. Covid 19 might be the final straw for this EU nonsense.

  8. #4488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I'm not diverting. I haven't changed my argument from my first reply, which you decided to divert around like a leftist.
    I don't believe in equality of outcome

    Your leftist stance does though

    Socialist medicine does not deliver equality of outcome

  9. #4489
    Senior Member Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    Great diversion

    Why not just say

    Let's not discuss social medicine v user pays right now because you can beat me over the head with its major flaw which is on show

    You got government officials and bureaucrats deciding who lives and dies and who gets treatment and who doesn't



    What a wonderful world you aspire to
    What?

    I haven't diverted, you just obviously can't understand simple information. That's your problem, not the rest of us.


    The US has your perfect healthcare system but the government won't fund any testing, so 1000s of people are carrying the virus around undetected. The people with private healthcare can get the test, but they can't stop from being infected by the majority of people who can't afford it right now. Don't forget that the highest case of infections in Australia from overseas travel has come from the US.

    When a vaccine is created, the people with private will get it. The poor won't, which means they'll be carriers to infect and re-infect more people.

    Countries with Universal Healthcare will be able to blanket vaccine the country and stop it's spread. The US will have this virus as a problem for a lot longer than us.
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  10. #4490
    Senior Member Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    I don't believe in equality of outcome

    Your leftist stance does though

    Socialist medicine does not deliver equality of outcome
    Well the US is living like a 2nd world country right now whereas the majority of Europe, which is on the same land mass as the epicenter and fallout, has a slower infection rate than the US.

    You keep talking down to Universal Healthcare but have zero evidence to back it up. You can't even think of anything positive about private healthcare can you? Find some countries without universal healthcare and show how well they are doing? Cause the US is absolutely floundering right now. Mexico and Canada have closed borders with it. African nations are coping better than the US right now. You're case study is a shitshow and you are sticking to the same failed hypothesis. It's getting sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeterpool View Post
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  11. #4491
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    Stay on subject
    You choose not to reply whenever somebody proves you wrong.
    Whenever a counter argument is made, you pick on a smaller piece of information and target and divert or give us some dribble that’s not even related to the topic of conversation.

    Can’t argue with stupid.

  12. #4492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
    Well the US is living like a 2nd world country right now whereas the majority of Europe, which is on the same land mass as the epicenter and fallout, has a slower infection rate than the US.

    You keep talking down to Universal Healthcare but have zero evidence to back it up. You can't even think of anything positive about private healthcare can you? Find some countries without universal healthcare and show how well they are doing? Cause the US is absolutely floundering right now. Mexico and Canada have closed borders with it. African nations are coping better than the US right now. You're case study is a shitshow and you are sticking to the same failed hypothesis. It's getting sad.
    USA currently has 4800 infections and 90 deaths

    There are 300 million people there

    Some perspective may be required

    As for a country with no universal healthcare

    Philippines
    100 million plus living in poverty for the most part
    142 infections 12 deaths

    They seem to be doing quite alright with no health care available for the poor locals

  13. #4493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremsstrahlung View Post
    You choose not to reply whenever somebody proves you wrong.
    Whenever a counter argument is made, you pick on a smaller piece of information and target and divert or give us some dribble that’s not even related to the topic of conversation.

    Can’t argue with stupid.
    Be good to get a useful counter argument for a change then

  14. #4494
    Senior Member Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    USA currently has 4800 infections and 90 deaths

    There are 300 million people there

    Some perspective may be required

    As for a country with no universal healthcare

    Philippines
    100 million plus living in poverty for the most part
    142 infections 12 deaths

    They seem to be doing quite alright with no health care available for the poor locals
    The US has a very high rate of increase in infection, so I don't think those stats show the true story.

    But the Philippines is a good example to try to prove your point. At the same time it helps prove an earlier point of mine that since the government enacted quarantine measures and self isolation, the rate has slowed down to a rate of infection that their hospitals can control. Negating the pressure on any healthcare system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeterpool View Post
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  15. #4495
    Senior Member Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    Be good to get a useful counter argument for a change then
    Same here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeterpool View Post
    I do it just for you. My goal in life is to have a quote in someone's signature.

  16. #4496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
    What?

    I haven't diverted, you just obviously can't understand simple information. That's your problem, not the rest of us.


    The US has your perfect healthcare system but the government won't fund any testing, so 1000s of people are carrying the virus around undetected. The people with private healthcare can get the test, but they can't stop from being infected by the majority of people who can't afford it right now. Don't forget that the highest case of infections in Australia from overseas travel has come from the US.

    When a vaccine is created, the people with private will get it. The poor won't, which means they'll be carriers to infect and re-infect more people.

    Countries with Universal Healthcare will be able to blanket vaccine the country and stop it's spread. The US will have this virus as a problem for a lot longer than us.
    At this point in time the biggest problem would be lack of resources for testing anyway so whether a government funded it or not is irrelevant in this time of world panic

    But this brings us back to a basic point of a finite number of resources

    Which is the reality of health care there is a limit to how many resources are available to be used on the public

    Me and you are both in agreement here

    But where we differ on how it will be dispensed

    Me I believe it should be based on who can afford it so those who have succeeded at life will benefit

    My stance is at least morally on Line with my principle of personal responsibility

    You on the other hand want the governent and beuracrats to randomly dispense the resources in whatever manner they seem fit
    Which is exactly what is happening with the no treatment to Italians because they are over 80 philosophy

    The problem here is that this stance is hypocritical to your diversity of outcome belief you hold


    See we both agree on dispensing of limited resources

    You will happily support victimising the elderly here whilst I support victimising those who fail at life by being bludgers

    I happy to hold my position on that are you??

  17. #4497
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    At this point in time the biggest problem would be lack of resources for testing anyway so whether a government funded it or not is irrelevant in this time of world panic

    But this brings us back to a basic point of a finite number of resources

    Which is the reality of health care there is a limit to how many resources are available to be used on the public

    Me and you are both in agreement here

    But where we differ on how it will be dispensed

    Me I believe it should be based on who can afford it so those who have succeeded at life will benefit

    My stance is at least morally on Line with my principle of personal responsibility

    You on the other hand want the governent and beuracrats to randomly dispense the resources in whatever manner they seem fit
    Which is exactly what is happening with the no treatment to Italians because they are over 80 philosophy

    The problem here is that this stance is hypocritical to your diversity of outcome belief you hold


    See we both agree on dispensing of limited resources

    You will happily support victimising the elderly here whilst I support victimising those who fail at life by being bludgers

    I happy to hold my position on that are you??
    You are reasoning from a false premise to support your position.
    There is no alternative to socialism. It's the system we have - and it encompasses all other systems of economic and social organisation.
    There is no such thing as free market capitalism. Never has been and never will be - it's just a pedagogical device used in economics text books to train undergraduates.

  18. #4498
    Senior Member Frodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFKS View Post
    At this point in time the biggest problem would be lack of resources for testing anyway so whether a government funded it or not is irrelevant in this time of world panic

    But this brings us back to a basic point of a finite number of resources

    Which is the reality of health care there is a limit to how many resources are available to be used on the public

    Me and you are both in agreement here

    But where we differ on how it will be dispensed

    Me I believe it should be based on who can afford it so those who have succeeded at life will benefit

    My stance is at least morally on Line with my principle of personal responsibility

    You on the other hand want the governent and beuracrats to randomly dispense the resources in whatever manner they seem fit
    Which is exactly what is happening with the no treatment to Italians because they are over 80 philosophy

    The problem here is that this stance is hypocritical to your diversity of outcome belief you hold


    See we both agree on dispensing of limited resources

    You will happily support victimising the elderly here whilst I support victimising those who fail at life by being bludgers

    I happy to hold my position on that are you??
    Random? Universal is the exact opposite of random. So, please stop throwing around the term without reason.

    The Italian thing about over 80 yrs old is to do with resources. They are going to lose people because the hospitals are over run. They are overrun because of the government's failure to act quick enough. Now the doctors have to make a choice in order to limit the amount of damage. Who has a better chance of and quicker recovery time between a 22 yr old and an 85 yr old? The hospital could likely help 3 x 22 yr old people with the same resources as the 85 yr old would take.


    The Chinese have plenty not testing kits available, they offered us 500,000 tests a week ago, the Irish have been mass producing them too. Plenty of test kits are now available, we just don't have the facilities set up to administer them and don't know where we should start. South Korea has already tested over 250,000 people. A good government, like NZ or South Korea, would already have a plan to get this done better.

    I'll stick to my morals of helping those in need first. I am actually disgusted by the logic that wealth should give you more basic human rights than someone else. You are very much on your own around here with that logic too. Some of us are actually decent human beings, you could learn a thing or two from some of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeterpool View Post
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  19. #4499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
    Random? Universal is the exact opposite of random. So, please stop throwing around the term without reason.

    The Italian thing about over 80 yrs old is to do with resources. They are going to lose people because the hospitals are over run. They are overrun because of the government's failure to act quick enough. Now the doctors have to make a choice in order to limit the amount of damage. Who has a better chance of and quicker recovery time between a 22 yr old and an 85 yr old? The hospital could likely help 3 x 22 yr old people with the same resources as the 85 yr old would take.


    The Chinese have plenty not testing kits available, they offered us 500,000 tests a week ago, the Irish have been mass producing them too. Plenty of test kits are now available, we just don't have the facilities set up to administer them and don't know where we should start. South Korea has already tested over 250,000 people. A good government, like NZ or South Korea, would already have a plan to get this done better.

    I'll stick to my morals of helping those in need first. I am actually disgusted by the logic that wealth should give you more basic human rights than someone else. You are very much on your own around here with that logic too. Some of us are actually decent human beings, you could learn a thing or two from some of them.
    You are worried about my logic yet you are advocating more or less euthaniseing the elderly with your policy ???

    That some pretty bizarre logic you have there


    As for your point on random it is irrelevant. Decisions are made by bureaucrats in any Universal System decision

    So my point is correct it is randomly decided

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    Anyone having issues getting food / Groceries ? Not having a lot of luck around here except for fresh fruit and veges being easy to find. I guess mongs don't like eating healthy.

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