Sydney FC

[plague]

So what do y’all say about Sean Ontong then?

You blokes must think he was the worst prepared, poorly coached bloke in the planet then.

[The Dunster]

Players aren't going to make conscious changes to their technique during games, you're right. To get anywhere it has to be practiced to the point where its muscle memory and natural. Changes to technique can be achieved - you would know this with your experience with tennis, and while there there is a lot of other aspects to cover in soccer as well as technique, if a coach spotted something detrimental to a player's health that they can work on to remove, it would be doable.

The other thing I would say with regards to Boogs injury. Yes, the way he fell, he's gonna get injured. However I would suggest that if he wasn't in such a state of mental and physical fatigue, he probably would have been more likely to bring his landing leg further forward and in front of him allowing him to land safely. Everyone who's played knows you start getting sloppy and lose your technique if you've busted your gut for a while and your muscle strength is fading. Whether or not it can be coached to be more mindful of it in that specific situation to allow safe landing, I don't know - it seems there would be too many different things to keep track of as you said. But say Boogs was stronger and/or fitter and was not fatiguing as hard at that point (also possible that his previous week's injury was contributing to this) then he would not have had such a sloppy landing.

The problem is that players are always going to be at their limit so fatigue is unavoidable. In tennis we'd probably find the current players would rarely if ever be injured if they played on the same courts with the same laid back schedules players did in the 60's and 70's.

But the reality is always going to be bigger, faster, better and so on - meaning players bodies in all sports are going to be pushed beyond a safe limit.

If players are within their limits then I'm not sure that's going to satisfy spectators as much as a war of attrition on the field so to speak . Again I'm not advocating pushing players in any sport until they break - but it does seem to be the reality of the professional sports where players are treated and traded like commodities all in the name of profits and entertainment.

[Macca]

Valid points and I agree with most of them.

Another thing to consider - I'm reading a biography of Messi at the moment, and jeez the lengths Barca go to to keep him on the pitch are something - amazing what they can do with money and a vested interest right? There hasn't been anything illegal mentioned or anything along those lines - but more so stuff like.. At one stage of his career he had a couple of injuries in a similar spot in quick succession. They went over every aspect of his life to try to work out any improvements they could make to work on his fitness and health. Personal chef and strict diet, 24/7 personal trainer with personalised plan for strengthening. Strict instructions to be very mindful that whenever he was putting effort in in a game, make sure its worth it - don't waste energy. Whole analysis teams monitoring all his training and match data as well as video analysis looking at all his technique etc to find absolutely any tiny little improvements they could make to make sure he would not be injured. They also had to spend a lot of time talking to him and coaching him and teaching him how to listen to and understand his body - dude is such a competitor that he tears his body apart trying to win otherwise.

Very interesting stuff. I'm sure there's similar stories out there about CR7 and how he has managed his body over the last couple years, reducing play time etc.

[The Dunster]

Valid points and I agree with most of them.

Another thing to consider - I'm reading a biography of Messi at the moment, and jeez the lengths Barca go to to keep him on the pitch are something - amazing what they can do with money and a vested interest right? There hasn't been anything illegal mentioned or anything along those lines - but more so stuff like.. At one stage of his career he had a couple of injuries in a similar spot in quick succession. They went over every aspect of his life to try to work out any improvements they could make to work on his fitness and health. Personal chef and strict diet, 24/7 personal trainer with personalised plan for strengthening. Strict instructions to be very mindful that whenever he was putting effort in in a game, make sure its worth it - don't waste energy. Whole analysis teams monitoring all his training and match data as well as video analysis looking at all his technique etc to find absolutely any tiny little improvements they could make to make sure he would not be injured. They also had to spend a lot of time talking to him and coaching him and teaching him how to listen to and understand his body - dude is such a competitor that he tears his body apart trying to win otherwise.

Very interesting stuff. I'm sure there's similar stories out there about CR7 and how he has managed his body over the last couple years, reducing play time etc.

Sergi Samper is also at Barcelona and not doing so well under the very same system.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-bar...ein/131/plus/1

[Macca]

I didn't say they were uncovering every stone for all their players. They were however very interested in keeping Messi on the park and so went to great lengths to do so. He has still spent time out injured despite this and the majority of players will, whether through something that could have been improved (from their or coaching point of view), or bad luck, or impact injuries etc.

I also tend to get the feeling that despite many smart people's best efforts, there is a lot about the human body that we still do not know and a lot of things that could be done better even at the highest level.

[boz-monaut]

does this discussion warrant an injuries and injury management thread?

perhaps in the off the ball

[Jetmaster]

Back to the subject - was interesting to see Poppa and Kalac watching the ACL the other night.

Watching over their boys for next season?

RBB would lose immense shit if that was to occur - they'd be throwing Killer Pythons!

[Wilso8948]

Back to the subject - was interesting to see Poppa and Kalac watching the ACL the other night.

Watching over their boys for next season?

RBB would lose immense shit if that was to occur - they'd be throwing Killer Pythons!

Article on the world game also mentions him replacing Gombau already. Probably all speculation however.

[rhysd]

Players have a hard enough time remembering where to be on the field during a game [especially if they have taken a knock or are fatigued]. Having them remember how to jump and land in relation to different surface conditions and how to adjust / compensate for exogenous factors such as the ball changing trajectory, making contact with another player, or making movements to avoid another player seems to be a little bit beyond reason.

Moreover, when you have limited squad sizes, salary caps.. and so on players are going to be playing when they shouldn't - so arguing about players not being ready to return is simply flogging a dead horse. It might be correct to say a player should not have come back but the reality is athletes are usually risk takers, and there is a lot of pressure on them to play as well from coaches, fans... and so on.

Getting the playing surface safer / more consistent would seem just as important - and a hell of a lot easier to achieve.

What exactly are your qualifications?

Players take risks, yes, are injuries 100% avoidable? No. Can we lessen their chance, yep!! Conditioning has been proven to help with this. Genetic profiling can govern, to an extent, your suitability to a specific sport and your ability to adapt to demands of a specific sport regardless of conditioning efforts that counteract this. If conditioning was a non existent requirement of modern day sport/anything (e.g. Navy seals, military, labouring) then you wouldn't have had Brisbane roar ask experts/specialists to come in and analyze their training methodologies and facilities.

You're using an argument that because player X doesn't need to do it, no one else needs to (which is in fact an erroneous statement) is baffling at the very least. Professional baseball pitchers,for a start, are assessed and analysed at the commencement of each pitching session by MEDICAL personnel who are assessing for joint mechanics and kinematics. If there is even the remote indication of restriction present in the kinetic chain they are not encouraged to pitch that day or at the very least provided modified programmes to limit the chance of AVOIDABLE injury due to presence of known associative risk factors which lead to higher probability of injury. The purpose of conditioning programmes are to encourage and maintain ideal functioning of the relevant systems of the human body.

I recall Scott Neville playing in Melbourne for the jets and enduring a nasty head knock.. 10 mins later, bang, his knee collapses and ACL gone. How much effect did neurological insult have an influence on his musculoskeletal injury (affecting his capacity to plan, coordinate/sequence and execute a previously well trained motor skill of turning at speed)? We will never know but I do wonder, but hey let us just blame the pitch! When muscular injury is present, fatigue has a more rapid and damning impact leading to potential muscular inhibitions (increasing risk of joint injury) such as seen in boogards case. How many times has he jumped and landed without issue on the turf at turton rd? Perhaps it was just "bad luck" but the fact it was same knee and only just coming off a taxing road trip to Brisbane, perhaps it was a game he could have sat out if justified medical evidence was present- perhaps the risk was not suffice to suggest he was at great risk - then mind you they probably weren't planning on going down to 10 men and working with that extra percentage more intensely. .

You only need to take yourself to a random gym/crossfit near you to see that 'genetics' doesn't quite cut the mustard. Technique and conditioning will and always will be a massive set of contributing factors to risk of injury.

Improving playing surface and lighting. Yep, that would be great. Lowering risk of injury. However, this is a component. Not everything. Otherwise you'd never see track athletes pull up with a hammy strain.

Please, don't rubbish the crucial role that conditioning and sports science plays in keeping players playing week in and week out through basing it on the anecdotal evidence of an individual case in governing whether conditioning is relevant or not. Monitoring of training loads (ala Real Madrid, Aussie NT teams) closely observe and track how hard their prized assets have been worked throughout the weeks so as to minimise chance of AVOIDABLE injury come crunch time!

A well oiled machine will tend to run longer, harder and more efficiently with reduced risk of breakdown!! Not everyone is built with da Vinci proportions - even then conditioning to various degrees is important.

[plague]

does this discussion warrant an injuries and injury management thread?

perhaps in the off the ball

nah, this is the worst thread on the foz. it deserves to be constantly derailed.

[The Dunster]

What exactly are your qualifications?

Players take risks, yes, are injuries 100% avoidable? No. Can we lessen their chance, yep!! Conditioning has been proven to help with this. Genetic profiling can govern, to an extent, your suitability to a specific sport and your ability to adapt to demands of a specific sport regardless of conditioning efforts that counteract this. If conditioning was a non existent requirement of modern day sport/anything (e.g. Navy seals, military, labouring) then you wouldn't have had Brisbane roar ask experts/specialists to come in and analyze their training methodologies and facilities.

You're using an argument that because player X doesn't need to do it, no one else needs to (which is in fact an erroneous statement) is baffling at the very least. Professional baseball pitchers,for a start, are assessed and analysed at the commencement of each pitching session by MEDICAL personnel who are assessing for joint mechanics and kinematics. If there is even the remote indication of restriction present in the kinetic chain they are not encouraged to pitch that day or at the very least provided modified programmes to limit the chance of AVOIDABLE injury due to presence of known associative risk factors which lead to higher probability of injury. The purpose of conditioning programmes are to encourage and maintain ideal functioning of the relevant systems of the human body.

I recall Scott Neville playing in Melbourne for the jets and enduring a nasty head knock.. 10 mins later, bang, his knee collapses and ACL gone. How much effect did neurological insult have an influence on his musculoskeletal injury (affecting his capacity to plan, coordinate/sequence and execute a previously well trained motor skill of turning at speed)? We will never know but I do wonder, but hey let us just blame the pitch! When muscular injury is present, fatigue has a more rapid and damning impact leading to potential muscular inhibitions (increasing risk of joint injury) such as seen in boogards case. How many times has he jumped and landed without issue on the turf at turton rd? Perhaps it was just "bad luck" but the fact it was same knee and only just coming off a taxing road trip to Brisbane, perhaps it was a game he could have sat out if justified medical evidence was present- perhaps the risk was not suffice to suggest he was at great risk - then mind you they probably weren't planning on going down to 10 men and working with that extra percentage more intensely. .

You only need to take yourself to a random gym/crossfit near you to see that 'genetics' doesn't quite cut the mustard. Technique and conditioning will and always will be a massive set of contributing factors to risk of injury.

Improving playing surface and lighting. Yep, that would be great. Lowering risk of injury. However, this is a component. Not everything. Otherwise you'd never see track athletes pull up with a hammy strain.

Please, don't rubbish the crucial role that conditioning and sports science plays in keeping players playing week in and week out through basing it on the anecdotal evidence of an individual case in governing whether conditioning is relevant or not. Monitoring of training loads (ala Real Madrid, Aussie NT teams) closely observe and track how hard their prized assets have been worked throughout the weeks so as to minimise chance of AVOIDABLE injury come crunch time!

A well oiled machine will tend to run longer, harder and more efficiently with reduced risk of breakdown!! Not everyone is built with da Vinci proportions - even then conditioning to various degrees is important.

The more capacity the science gives the players the harder they will push their bodies towards breaking point - that's a fact.
The science of injury management / prevention as admirable as it might be is fighting a battle it cannot win - much like how drug testing is always going to be a step behind the doping programs.

I'm not taking the piss out of your job, I'm simply stating that the dynamics of the industry mean it's probably always going to be a case of never catching up.

If it does get on top and pretty much nullify injury that's not going to be good for the sport either - like it or not people want to see players break for all sorts of reasons from the theatre of it all to it giving opportunities for others to step up .. and so on.

[Macca]

There would still be injuries anyway. Sports science won't stop people hacking other players to bits and bad tackles.

I tend to agree that it will always be playing catchup and possibly with diminishing returns too. But at the end of the day, if they're still able to increase performance levels and reduce injury occurrence rates, seems like a win-win to me.

[The Dunster]

There would still be injuries anyway. Sports science won't stop people hacking other players to bits and bad tackles.

I tend to agree that it will always be playing catchup and possibly with diminishing returns too. But at the end of the day, if they're still able to increase performance levels and reduce injury occurrence rates, seems like a win-win to me.

I'm too old for it to concern me and don't have any children or grandchildren playing to worry about any of it from a personal perspective.

But in general I really think [and yes this is an opinion] that we are pushing kids / adults far too hard in sport - pretty much beyond the point of it actually being an enjoyable activity.

The science has also changed the way different sports are played and many of them have become very sterile and predictable as a result. Modern AFL perhaps the worst of it - but football as well is starting to slowly go the same way as well. Baseball ? pretty much beyond saving now.

[Macca]

I'm too old for it to concern me and don't have any children or grandchildren playing to worry about any of it from a personal perspective.

But in general I really think [and yes this is an opinion] that we are pushing kids / adults far too hard in sport - pretty much beyond the point of it actually being an enjoyable activity.

The science has also changed the way different sports are played and many of them have become very sterile and predictable as a result. Modern AFL perhaps the worst of it - but football as well is starting to slowly go the same way as well. Baseball ? pretty much beyond saving now.

All you gotta do is look at the English development system and to a lesser extent the Aussie one - very formalised; top down coaching, philosophy based, structured, well funded (debateable of course). Much of it designed and created with good intent and a lot of research and methodology behind it. Where has it gotten them? A lot of cookie cutter players who are "ok" but will never be great.

Then you look at the amount of players coming out of South America and Africa. Despite the best attempts of many, they [England] have not been able to synthesise the processes and environments which create star players. They may achieve it eventually but are not much closer at the moment - just producing a higher quality "average" player.

The thing that makes football beautiful (to me anyway) is the creativity, imagination, audacity of players with talent who break the mould and do the undoable. Players who are given structure from a young age cannot do this, only execute within their structure to a high level.

On a side note, I read a comment from Eric Dier the other day who before joining Spurs was brought through the ranks in Portugal. Upon returning to England he remarked how invasive and in your face the coaches were, micromanaging everything and abusing players for mistakes. He said in Portugal the coach hardly said anything during training, he expected players to recognise their own mistakes and find solutions to them on their own.

[The Dunster]

This is why I don't like Sydney FC. Sure they are good at what they do - but it's so predictable / boring. In fact that's pretty much Graham Arnold's style - the gypos suffered from it and Australia will to when he takes over.
Ernie Merrick on the other-hand coaches teams that will never die wondering. It's all about attack and entertainment. It can come unstuck at times - but more often than not this season at least it's led to a shit load of goals from open play.

With respect to the English system I think Kevin Keegan once commented that young players make money too easily these days and as such lack incentive to become the best.
Player goals are more or less focused toward a lifestyle target more so than simply wanting to be the best player in the world.

[rhysd]

The more capacity the science gives the players the harder they will push their bodies towards breaking point - that's a fact.
The science of injury management / prevention as admirable as it might be is fighting a battle it cannot win - much like how drug testing is always going to be a step behind the doping programs.

I'm not taking the piss out of your job, I'm simply stating that the dynamics of the industry mean it's probably always going to be a case of never catching up.

If it does get on top and pretty much nullify injury that's not going to be good for the sport either - like it or not people want to see players break for all sorts of reasons from the theatre of it all to it giving opportunities for others to step up .. and so on.

It is a world driven by reducing LTI (lossed time injury).

Conditioning is purely supplemental to the coaching of teams to play games in a certain way. It will be integral in a lot of game plans and strategies (e.g. Sydney trusting their sport science to keep their best 11 on the park, Newcastle trusting their sports science to encourage an up tempo/upbeat style of play with high octane pressing).

I never ever and no one ever will say that injuries are 100% avoidable- it is about minimising.

You were taking the piss out of my job and anyone with a qualification in Physiotherapy, sports science and conditioning, medicine in general, other associated degrees/extensive educations. I just found your viewpoint absurd, misleading and completely contrary to modern day training methodology.

Philosophy of playing style is another completely different factor / entity involved in training. Discuss as you want but injury prevention, as alluded to by macca, is something highly sought after by both player and club to maximise performance.

[The Dunster]

It is a world driven by reducing LTI (lossed time injury).

Conditioning is purely supplemental to the coaching of teams to play games in a certain way. It will be integral in a lot of game plans and strategies (e.g. Sydney trusting their sport science to keep their best 11 on the park, Newcastle trusting their sports science to encourage an up tempo/upbeat style of play with high octane pressing).

I never ever and no one ever will say that injuries are 100% avoidable- it is about minimising.

You were taking the piss out of my job and anyone with a qualification in Physiotherapy, sports science and conditioning, medicine in general, other associated degrees/extensive educations. I just found your viewpoint absurd, misleading and completely contrary to modern day training methodology.

Philosophy of playing style is another completely different factor / entity involved in training. Discuss as you want but injury prevention, as alluded to by macca, is something highly sought after by both player and club to maximise performance.

Again. Was not taking the piss out of your job.

But again if we can produce a more resilient type player it is inevitable they will simply be pushed harder by the system until they break.

And by system I am not referring to you or the medical side of things.

If i inadvertently offended you I appologise.