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Thread: 2020 Premier Club SAP

  1. #1381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnno View Post
    Statistics say less than 5% would actually make a living and less than 1% will actually make it to the pinnacle in Australia.
    ok now do the percentage of people on here who are posting that their kid is going to be the new Messi.then do the percentage of people that are just interested in their kids having fun playing football.then do the percentage of people on here who have nothing to do with SAP but just want to bitch and moan about something that doesnt matter to them.
    Last edited by sapdad; 21-11-2020 at 11:37 PM.

  2. #1382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isthisforreal View Post
    No exodus from the Jaffas 🤣🤣🤣 6 of the 12 players have left, what do you call that ? Along with the fact they were all quality players.
    They have only 1 player left from U9s, sounds like a stable environment

    It’s obvious there’s a problem
    Hi all,

    I’d prefer not to talk about specific clubs but I would like to address the subject discussed here. If it is indeed true that a club (any club!) has only one U9 left by U12 then I agree it does suggest that something hasn’t worked at the club.

    This could be that the players initially picked were not good enough with Youth football on the horizon; it could mean the coaching hasn’t been good enough; it could mean players have found other lives, or it could mean the club turns over players quickly in the hope of finding better players.

    It could also be a combination of any of these.

    My hope for SAP when it started was to developed our players over four years in the hope 50% who started on the journey make it to youth football at our club. At a guess I think we still have around 70% of the players who started with us in U9 coming back for U12 next season. I’m proud of that.

    I hope the changes being made elsewhere are not change for change’s sake. Of course some players might not develop as fast as others, but IMHO patience is important. Of course our club does not have the luxury of being a ‘big club’ - but we do show loyalty and hope to get that back in the long run.

    A

  3. #1383
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapdad View Post
    ok now do the percentage of people on here who are posting that their kid is going to be the new Messi.then do the percentage of people that are just interested in their kids having fun playing football.then do the percentage of people on here who have nothing to do with SAP but just want to bitch and moan about something that doesnt matter to them.
    Ill take a slightly different angle on fun

    Fun? yeah it starts off for a while but not what ive seen at SAP and NPL unless they are winning most weeks. Even then it can be intense pressure. Its a never ending success seeking misery.

    Youd be surprised how many parents want their child to be one of the best especially at the younger age even when clearly underdone. Pride and privilege is an evil thing. So then it progresses to getting them into the "best" teams with best coaching so they can be that star. Guess who our boy plays for....

    As the years go by unrealistic goals and expectation drop to reality. By the time we get to 15s the spread is pretty set albeit couple of late developers. however some will realise NBN as their top grade.

    The Jets kids are a bit different and have a slight chance of "greatness" - more recently BK, Kanta, hoffman all made a living ? Good enough?

    My point - to try and make it more fun - stay at the local club and combine fun, improvement with DECENT results, make the club competitive in most grades. Clubs need good coaches and some encouraging results to keep their juniors. Fun at a good level.

    Or do what many do after a NPL career... AAge/Zone league and beers

  4. #1384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Hi all,

    I’d prefer not to talk about specific clubs but I would like to address the subject discussed here. If it is indeed true that a club (any club!) has only one U9 left by U12 then I agree it does suggest that something hasn’t worked at the club.

    This could be that the players initially picked were not good enough with Youth football on the horizon; it could mean the coaching hasn’t been good enough; it could mean players have found other lives, or it could mean the club turns over players quickly in the hope of finding better players.

    It could also be a combination of any of these.

    My hope for SAP when it started was to developed our players over four years in the hope 50% who started on the journey make it to youth football at our club. At a guess I think we still have around 70% of the players who started with us in U9 coming back for U12 next season. I’m proud of that.

    I hope the changes being made elsewhere are not change for change’s sake. Of course some players might not develop as fast as others, but IMHO patience is important. Of course our club does not have the luxury of being a ‘big club’ - but we do show loyalty and hope to get that back in the long run.

    A
    You comment has made me think. I like the part about loyalty. I think the rule should be that the club you pick for Sap you must stay at fill the end of u/12. Once we get to youth football you can swap. If a player gives it away you must fill that spot with someone from community football instead of taking the easy option and poaching from another SAP team. It put the emphasis on clubs developing players and parents making the right choice to start with. It would cease the entire nonsense.
    I’d love to hear people’s opinion on that

  5. #1385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Police View Post
    Ill take a slightly different angle on fun

    Fun? yeah it starts off for a while but not what ive seen at SAP and NPL unless they are winning most weeks. Even then it can be intense pressure. Its a never ending success seeking misery.

    Youd be surprised how many parents want their child to be one of the best especially at the younger age even when clearly underdone. Pride and privilege is an evil thing. So then it progresses to getting them into the "best" teams with best coaching so they can be that star. Guess who our boy plays for....

    As the years go by unrealistic goals and expectation drop to reality. By the time we get to 15s the spread is pretty set albeit couple of late developers. however some will realise NBN as their top grade.

    The Jets kids are a bit different and have a slight chance of "greatness" - more recently BK, Kanta, hoffman all made a living ? Good enough?

    My point - to try and make it more fun - stay at the local club and combine fun, improvement with DECENT results, make the club competitive in most grades. Clubs need good coaches and some encouraging results to keep their juniors. Fun at a good level.

    Or do what many do after a NPL career... AAge/Zone league and beers
    appreciate your response.however i was referring to the behaviour of people on the forum, not at the games.the discussion points on the forum are overwhelmingly civil and interesting (and relevant to the program).i just cant stand people on here with the tired old "you parents are all nutcases" angle.
    as for fun, i used a simple term but my main idea behind fun is the kids enjoying learning, going to training and playing games and understand what its going to take to keep progressing in the program.i see plenty of kids out there on all level of teams who look miserable.ive no doubt none of them will ever reach their potential and i blame a lot of that on the parents for sure.its a long long road from U/9's to where ever they end up, but if they hate it its over.

  6. #1386
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hacker View Post
    You comment has made me think. I like the part about loyalty. I think the rule should be that the club you pick for Sap you must stay at fill the end of u/12. Once we get to youth football you can swap. If a player gives it away you must fill that spot with someone from community football instead of taking the easy option and poaching from another SAP team. It put the emphasis on clubs developing players and parents making the right choice to start with. It would cease the entire nonsense.
    I’d love to hear people’s opinion on that
    Great topic. Thanks Hacker.

    I think a two-year cycle would be more preferable, covering U9 to end of U10, then U11 to end of U12.

    Two years gives parents comfort their child they’ll be developed for a very good period of time, and it will also provide clubs some security that players won’t just up and go after a season. Of course parents can still walk away within the two year period - but that child shouldn’t be able to join another SAP club.

    The more I think about this, the more I like it. Do others see any pitfalls? If it’s not working out, players can walk away or force clubs to address the issues. While not contracts, a two year commitment period on both sides will result in much more certainty across the board.

    What do others think?

    A

  7. #1387
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapdad View Post
    appreciate your response.however i was referring to the behaviour of people on the forum, not at the games.the discussion points on the forum are overwhelmingly civil and interesting (and relevant to the program).i just cant stand people on here with the tired old "you parents are all nutcases" angle.
    Yeah I didnt want to make it about people on here but a holistic view of local premier club development.

    Most on here I believe are in it for the experience to see where it takes their child and to find out general information, changes etc.

    We dont need club hero nutcases on here, save it for the home base where everyone will agree with them.
    Last edited by Negative Police; 22-11-2020 at 05:43 PM.

  8. #1388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Great topic. Thanks Hacker.

    I think a two-year cycle would be more preferable, covering U9 to end of U10, then U11 to end of U12.

    Two years gives parents comfort their child they’ll be developed for a very good period of time, and it will also provide clubs some security that players won’t just up and go after a season. Of course parents can still walk away within the two year period - but that child shouldn’t be able to join another SAP club.

    The more I think about this, the more I like it. Do others see any pitfalls? If it’s not working out, players can walk away or force clubs to address the issues. While not contracts, a two year commitment period on both sides will result in much more certainty across the board.

    What do others think?

    A
    Interesting point. I think the clubs recruitment is the most important because if they get the right player with desired abilities its easier to keep for a longer time.

    Its impossible to get a team of keepers (not GKs) at 9 or 10. Many haven't trialed or haven't been told about the recruitment process by then. At 11 or 12 much of the local talent has been found and most probably finding their way to the already strongest clubs.
    Last edited by Negative Police; 22-11-2020 at 10:50 PM.

  9. #1389
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hacker View Post
    You comment has made me think. I like the part about loyalty. I think the rule should be that the club you pick for Sap you must stay at fill the end of u/12. Once we get to youth football you can swap. If a player gives it away you must fill that spot with someone from community football instead of taking the easy option and poaching from another SAP team. It put the emphasis on clubs developing players and parents making the right choice to start with. It would cease the entire nonsense.
    I’d love to hear people’s opinion on that
    A club has a poor U9 recruitment drive. 2 years of floggings.

    I think development is much over rated term. Driven players go from good to great. Strugglers go from non passing to passing

  10. #1390
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    Devils advocate here.

    I think the program needs to decide what it wants to be.
    While clubs are having “trials” and “selections” it’s going to be seen as an “elite” program because you have to be “good” to get into it, as opposed to community football where you go to a club and they put you in a team. So to those that are saying it’s just an alternative, yeh, it is, but it’s a selective alternative.

    While it’s an “elite program” performance metrics and recruitment are going to be at play, that’s the nature of anything where you put the best into it.
    I’d also point out that a key reason kids play sport is to win. Whether you keep score or not, kids know if they win. I dare say those that win, probably enjoy it more. Which drives their decisions and their parents to want to give them better access to this. There’s nothing wrong with this imo, taking away results can negatively impact the kids just as much. They may have a great season, and have nothing to show for it. Hell, playing under 8s gala day grand final was something that kickstarted my interest in soccer and made me chase that feeling.

    I frankly think “signing” kids to 2 year contracts or commitments is a bit much.
    Alan, says his/her club have 70% retention. Where’s the 2 year commitments? They are doing the right thing by their players and they want to stay. That’s signs of a good program. Players want to be there, families want to be there and club is happy to stick with them. It should encourage other programs to change. Forcing players to stay is not doing any favours.

    When I hear people whinging about how clubs treat players etc, it shows me people know what goes on. If those players get burned by a club, do they go back? No. Do they tell their friends or forums or anybody that’ll listen? Yes. If people then go there expecting different outcome, then they deserve what they get, they were warned.

    Players changing clubs has been happening for years, for various reasons. It’s parents jobs to reason with their children, and help them to be comfortable in what they end up doing. It’s all learning.

  11. #1391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremsstrahlung View Post
    Devils advocate here.

    I think the program needs to decide what it wants to be.
    While clubs are having “trials” and “selections” it’s going to be seen as an “elite” program because you have to be “good” to get into it, as opposed to community football where you go to a club and they put you in a team. So to those that are saying it’s just an alternative, yeh, it is, but it’s a selective alternative.

    While it’s an “elite program” performance metrics and recruitment are going to be at play, that’s the nature of anything where you put the best into it.
    I’d also point out that a key reason kids play sport is to win. Whether you keep score or not, kids know if they win. I dare say those that win, probably enjoy it more. Which drives their decisions and their parents to want to give them better access to this. There’s nothing wrong with this imo, taking away results can negatively impact the kids just as much. They may have a great season, and have nothing to show for it. Hell, playing under 8s gala day grand final was something that kickstarted my interest in soccer and made me chase that feeling.

    I frankly think “signing” kids to 2 year contracts or commitments is a bit much.
    Alan, says his/her club have 70% retention. Where’s the 2 year commitments? They are doing the right thing by their players and they want to stay. That’s signs of a good program. Players want to be there, families want to be there and club is happy to stick with them. It should encourage other programs to change. Forcing players to stay is not doing any favours.

    When I hear people whinging about how clubs treat players etc, it shows me people know what goes on. If those players get burned by a club, do they go back? No. Do they tell their friends or forums or anybody that’ll listen? Yes. If people then go there expecting different outcome, then they deserve what they get, they were warned.

    Players changing clubs has been happening for years, for various reasons. It’s parents jobs to reason with their children, and help them to be comfortable in what they end up doing. It’s all learning.
    great post mate.sums it up,its not a perfect system and nothing ever will be.but its got its benefits.hopefully clubs and NNSW make the effort to fine tune any issues that arise.the ability for clubs to secure their own kids for the following year seems to be a massive grey area and the rules that exist as i understand them(which i dont like) get flaunted anyway.id also like to see coaches better educated.nothing against them but theres a lot of them in the system that have great intentions and bundles of enthusiasm but could do with some support from the establishment.it will make everyone better and we all should support those who put their hands up to help.

  12. #1392
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    Timely SMH article

    'Winning at any cost': Inside the cut-throat and 'cliquey' world of youth soccer.
    Parents and football insiders have taken aim at Football NSW's system to develop youth players, accusing clubs of running a cliquey and "cut-throat" system not in the best interests of children or the game of soccer.

    Multiple parents have described an unfair recruitment process for the skills acquisition programs (SAPs) and National Premier Leagues (NPL) teams, a cavalier attitude to children's wellbeing and an emphasis on money.

    "It's a rather divisive and unpleasant experience overall," said Emma Talbot, a mother of two children who play soccer in the inner west.

    Under a strategy in place since 2010, Football NSW has licensed 48 clubs to provide SAPs for children aged nine to 13 at a cost of $1500 a season. Once players outgrow the SAP phase, they can compete for places in a junior NPL team, the tier below the A-League, with fees set at $2650.

    Jim Apostolovski, the immediate past-president of Leichhardt Tigers Junior Soccer Club and a senior figure in the sport in NSW, said he had never supported the SAP system and agreed problems were rife because clubs were interested in "winning at any cost".

    Meanwhile, Craig Foster, a football commentator and former Socceroo, said while he was not involved with the SAP and NPL programs at all, "the high cost to play, particularly for talented player programs, is something the game has long avoided confronting".

    Mr Apostolovski said SAP system was meant to be about skills development and discovery but some clubs - and parents - were focused on competition, which changed how the children were selected and coached.

    "Where it's become very distorted is there's an A team and a B team - I totally disagree with that," Mr Apostolovski said. "You should have 20 kids who play together and some weeks they play in the red team and some in the white team."

    "SAP is meant to be about learning and experiencing the ball in a non-competitive environment - if it's not that then make it a competition and revert it back to what it used to be in the '80s and '90s when there was a rep program," he said.

    Foster said the high fees meant the sport was not drawing talent from families who could not afford it, including thousands of Indigenous kids, families from culturally and linguistically diverse communities and refugees.

    "Australia's greatest generations of players did not arise in an environment where tens of thousands of dollars was a determinant, quite the contrary," he said.

    "Financial wherewithal should never be an indicator of sporting achievement, certainly not in the simple game the very nature of which is more inclusive than any other, just a ball and boots."

    Foster said it was not an easy problem to fix for a game starved of large broadcast fees and commercial revenue but it was "one that football needs to challenge itself to fix".

    Mr Apostolovski said the fees were about covering costs, especially for inner city clubs that had to pay councils huge sums for access to sporting fields. He said it should be free for promising youth players but that could only be achieved with the support of state and federal governments and the peak bodies.

    The SAP and NPL trials, which have mostly happened in the past few weeks and are still ongoing at some clubs, are highly competitive for both boys and girls, with sometimes hundreds of children competing for a handful of places.

    The Sun-Herald has spoken to a number of parents, many of whom asked to be anonymous because their children were still playing soccer and they feared retribution, about the process.

    The clubs frequently run their trials on the same day or same weekend, which Mr Apostolovski believes is a deliberate attempt to force parents and players to choose.

    Ms Talbot, the inner west soccer mum, said her daughter went to SAP trials at several clubs and she observed that children were typically pulled off the field to be offered a position in full view of their peers.

    "Your child is left to play on with the knowledge that they have obviously not been the chosen one this time," Ms Talbot said.

    Another father, who grew up playing soccer in western Sydney and played professional football in Britain, said he took his daughter to try out for SAP programs at several clubs in the past few weeks.

    He said at Gladesville Ravens, they pulled him and his daughter aside and offered her a spot - but only if he could immediately pay a $500 deposit to secure her place.

    "They said 'we need your $500 deposit right now otherwise I'm going to keep trialling and another girl is going to get this spot'," he said. "They had a little setup under a marquee tent with an ATM machine."

    The father said he also saw another child offered a spot who was there with friends and they called her parents on the phone for immediate payment. He said this was a bad way to identify talent who would be the elite players of the future because it favoured not only families who could afford $1500 but also those who had access to $500 at short notice.

    His daughter later discovered she had been offered a place at Sydney University Football Club as well but the Ravens' attitude was that the whole $500 was non-refundable. Ravens did not respond to requests for comment.

    Mr Apostolovksi defended the need for clubs to secure a deposit, saying parents were "shopping around" different clubs and the clubs needed to manage the logistics.

    Two parents have separately described an incident when their sons tried out for an NPL team at the University of Sydney. They say the club separated the children into two games at the beginning of the trial and then the coaches spent the entire 90 minutes watching only one of the games, so it was "completely evident none of the other kids had a shot". The club did not comment.

    One mother said one club has called her youngest son back for four trials the past few weeks and still not given him an answer. He is the only one left for his position but they have not committed, making her suspect they are scouting around for another player and just hanging on to him in case they don't find someone.

    Mr Apostolovski said NPL coaches should be transparent about how many players they are recruiting and for which positions, as a matter of "courtesy". He experienced the other side of this recently, taking his younger son to a trial in Sutherland, seeing 60 children turn up and then the coach admitting to him they had no positions open and he wasn't sure why they were holding a trial.

    A 19-year-old man who played NPL at two different clubs in Sydney from the age of 13 said he enjoyed his experience because he loved playing football but from his observation it was "often more about who you know".

    He was the beneficiary of this when he was 12 and his friend's father organised coaching with the person who would be coaching the NPL team for his age group the following year, while other times he saw mediocre players promoted on the strength of their connections.

    Amber Robinson, a mother from Oatley, said her son played SAP for a year in Rockdale when he was younger but he found it cliquey and not enjoyable so he went back to his club after a year.

    Football NSW technical director Warren Grieve said he was not aware of these incidents but confirmed "not one of those scenarios would be in [his] guidelines to roll out a smooth and professional trials day experience".

    He said parents could complain to Football NSW, which would follow up with clubs, but parents should find a club where they felt comfortable with the culture.

    "My question would be, why would they keep their child within that environment?" he asked.

  13. #1393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bremsstrahlung View Post
    When I hear people whinging about how clubs treat players etc, it shows me people know what goes on. If those players get burned by a club, do they go back? No. Do they tell their friends or forums or anybody that’ll listen? Yes. If people then go there expecting different outcome, then they deserve what they get, they were warned.
    Not really. 3 players may hate a club team but 15 may like it. It doesnt define the club when a few leave and bitch on social. But i can define the overall culture of certain clubs and 1 I will avoid for the long term.
    Last edited by Negative Police; 22-11-2020 at 10:52 PM.

  14. #1394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isthisforreal View Post
    No exodus from the Jaffas ������ 6 of the 12 players have left, what do you call that ? Along with the fact they were all quality players.
    They have only 1 player left from U9s, sounds like a stable environment

    It’s obvious there’s a problem
    So there's also a big problem at Adamstown because half of their 14s are leaving or are we going to conveniently blame the other clubs for accepting the movers? Cant cry both ways. Its up to the players to decide.

    You find many clubs dont have many 9s left in U11s or 12s especially if they didnt bother looking too hard at the start. Give it up salty.

  15. #1395
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    i think the article posted by Negative Police shows everything thats right and wrong with programs like this.if clubs hold open trials then they are not showing loyalty for their existing players.if clubs dont hold open trials they are being cliquey and playing favourites.Clubs want players to commit on the spot,players (and parents) want spots held in case they get a better offer.there is no winning here.what we all need to realise is that parents need to be really aware of what they are getting into and understand what the program is and what the real endgame is.clubs need to be focused just on the well being of the kids, the rest will take care of itself in the long run.and this isnt a problem isolated to football.every sport/school/work program that gives pathways to the 'better' qualified will always be accused of these exact same things.im all for tweaking it and making it as good as possible,but it will never be perfect.
    also on the cost,im at a loss to whether it will ever become affordable.im not sure how many govt enquiries and reincarnations of the structure of australian football there has been, but it seems that once the people get in charge of so much money and power they get corrupted by it.and with FIFA explicitly forbidding govts from running the game, there is no solution in sight.sadly.

  16. #1396
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapdad View Post
    i think the article posted by Negative Police shows everything thats right and wrong with programs like this.if clubs hold open trials then they are not showing loyalty for their existing players.if clubs dont hold open trials they are being cliquey and playing favourites.Clubs want players to commit on the spot,players (and parents) want spots held in case they get a better offer.there is no winning here.what we all need to realise is that parents need to be really aware of what they are getting into and understand what the program is and what the real endgame is.clubs need to be focused just on the well being of the kids, the rest will take care of itself in the long run.and this isnt a problem isolated to football.every sport/school/work program that gives pathways to the 'better' qualified will always be accused of these exact same things.im all for tweaking it and making it as good as possible,but it will never be perfect.
    also on the cost,im at a loss to whether it will ever become affordable.im not sure how many govt enquiries and reincarnations of the structure of australian football there has been, but it seems that once the people get in charge of so much money and power they get corrupted by it.and with FIFA explicitly forbidding govts from running the game, there is no solution in sight.sadly.

    Im interested in peoples opinions on Clubs having trials on the same day as others for the same age group.

    Good - Players forced to choose the club prior
    Bad - Weaker club trials are a waste and have to retrial once stronger clubs release kids from their trials?

  17. #1397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retired01 View Post
    Im interested in peoples opinions on Clubs having trials on the same day as others for the same age group.

    Good - Players forced to choose the club prior
    Bad - Weaker club trials are a waste and have to retrial once stronger clubs release kids from their trials?
    It’s ridiculous and it gets worse as kids get older. Player and children’s well-being should be at the heart of the system in youth football and it’s not. It gets worse as they get older and a lot I imagine quit because of reasons that have very little to do with football, more to do with the rest of the problems often described here.

  18. #1398
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    Quote Originally Posted by KITZ View Post
    It’s ridiculous and it gets worse as kids get older. Player and children’s well-being should be at the heart of the system in youth football and it’s not. It gets worse as they get older and a lot I imagine quit because of reasons that have very little to do with football, more to do with the rest of the problems often described here.
    Ideas for a solution? From what I understand the dates are mandated by NNSW. Is that true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doopche View Post
    Jesus you talk some crap, you’re like a forum slut, jumping from post to post. Give it a rest clown.
    You’ve even started talking to yourself in this group. #loser
    A crime for joining in multiforums? What a true moron.

    Your appalling behaviour points to the grub you really are and your club is as vile and it's clear for everyone to see. What a poor excuse for a human but no one is surprised.

  20. #1400
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapdad View Post
    i think the article posted by Negative Police shows everything thats right and wrong with programs like this.if clubs hold open trials then they are not showing loyalty for their existing players.if clubs dont hold open trials they are being cliquey and playing favourites.Clubs want players to commit on the spot,players (and parents) want spots held in case they get a better offer.there is no winning here.what we all need to realise is that parents need to be really aware of what they are getting into and understand what the program is and what the real endgame is.clubs need to be focused just on the well being of the kids, the rest will take care of itself in the long run.and this isnt a problem isolated to football.every sport/school/work program that gives pathways to the 'better' qualified will always be accused of these exact same things.im all for tweaking it and making it as good as possible,but it will never be perfect.
    also on the cost,im at a loss to whether it will ever become affordable.im not sure how many govt enquiries and reincarnations of the structure of australian football there has been, but it seems that once the people get in charge of so much money and power they get corrupted by it.and with FIFA explicitly forbidding govts from running the game, there is no solution in sight.sadly.
    Interesting that clubs can differ by a fair margin even though playing in the same comp and with supposed similar certified coaching.

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