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Thread: Current NPL Structure

  1. #1
    Senior Member Zico's Avatar
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    Current NPL Structure

    Interested in reading peopleís opinions on the PPS and if they feel it is working or if it is time to go back to the previous model?

    The PPS was from memory put in place to lower the player wages, make the comp more even and promote or fast track for a better word young players to a higher level.

    My take on it is,

    1 - The player wages have not slowed or decreased since the introduction of the PPS if anything the player wages have grown significantly in the period.

    2 Ė Make the comp more even? Last season was remarkably close from top of the table to 6th or 7th but then day light to the perennial bottom 3 clubs of Adamstown, Valo and Lakes. The top 4 has been made up predominately of the same 4-5 clubs every season of the PPS with Edgeworth winning almost every Premiership since its inception and the bottom 3 clubs have almost certainly been the same 3 or 4 clubs.

    3- Fast track the development of young players? How many players do we currently have playing A League from the local NPL? How many national team players at any level have we produced since the inception of the PPS? Very few is the answer. The PPS can also hinder the development of young players who develop later that 20 years of age (Iíll wait for expected ďif you are not playing first grade at 20 years old then you will never be good enoughĒ brigade). Players hit their peaks at a later age now, play to any older age and most certainly appear to still be developing at an older age also. How can anybody honestly look at a 20 year and say the player has hit full development?

    My thoughts are that the PPS has run its race and it is time to stop the restrictions on clubs. The previous model worked. We may see a club come out of the blue and splash the cash to buy a comp but everybody knows that this is not sustainable and the club that does this will almost certainly be relegated once the splash of cash dries up. Get rid of the PPS, return to an open Reserve Grade and move 18ís to 19ís or 20ís and implement promotion and relegation between the divisions for the comp will prosper. If people donít agree with promotion and relegation then why not have a play off for the spot that the last placed NPL team plays of against the premiers of the 1st Div at the home ground of the 1st Div premiers? This would attract huge interest and be a big cash injection for both clubs but even more so for the home side and double as a leg up to compete financial for both sides the following season.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Aegon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zico View Post
    Interested in reading people’s opinions on the PPS and if they feel it is working or if it is time to go back to the previous model?

    The PPS was from memory put in place to lower the player wages, make the comp more even and promote or fast track for a better word young players to a higher level.

    My take on it is,

    1 - The player wages have not slowed or decreased since the introduction of the PPS if anything the player wages have grown significantly in the period.

    2 – Make the comp more even? Last season was remarkably close from top of the table to 6th or 7th but then day light to the perennial bottom 3 clubs of Adamstown, Valo and Lakes. The top 4 has been made up predominately of the same 4-5 clubs every season of the PPS with Edgeworth winning almost every Premiership since its inception and the bottom 3 clubs have almost certainly been the same 3 or 4 clubs.

    3- Fast track the development of young players? How many players do we currently have playing A League from the local NPL? How many national team players at any level have we produced since the inception of the PPS? Very few is the answer. The PPS can also hinder the development of young players who develop later that 20 years of age (I’ll wait for expected “if you are not playing first grade at 20 years old then you will never be good enough” brigade). Players hit their peaks at a later age now, play to any older age and most certainly appear to still be developing at an older age also. How can anybody honestly look at a 20 year and say the player has hit full development?

    My thoughts are that the PPS has run its race and it is time to stop the restrictions on clubs. The previous model worked. We may see a club come out of the blue and splash the cash to buy a comp but everybody knows that this is not sustainable and the club that does this will almost certainly be relegated once the splash of cash dries up. Get rid of the PPS, return to an open Reserve Grade and move 18’s to 19’s or 20’s and implement promotion and relegation between the divisions for the comp will prosper. If people don’t agree with promotion and relegation then why not have a play off for the spot that the last placed NPL team plays of against the premiers of the 1st Div at the home ground of the 1st Div premiers? This would attract huge interest and be a big cash injection for both clubs but even more so for the home side and double as a leg up to compete financial for both sides the following season.
    PPS is just ineffective. it isn't near restrictive enough to have a tangible effect. Even if it was, clubs know enough loopholes to get around it.

  3. #3
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    The original ops which was in place for one year was because because clubs such as edgeworth, olympic and mainly magic complained to the FFA stating it was to much of a restriction for a small country town like Newcastle, FFA then has NNSWF draw up what they believe to be a suitable solution, hence the mediocre outcome

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverRed View Post
    The original ops which was in place for one year was because because clubs such as edgeworth, olympic and mainly magic complained to the FFA stating it was to much of a restriction for a small country town like Newcastle, FFA then has NNSWF draw up what they believe to be a suitable solution, hence the mediocre outcome
    Amazing.... almost everything in that sentence is wrong, the capital city football clubs launched anti discrimination proceedings against the FFA supported by the PFA because of the age based penalties within the PPS for players over the age of 23. But agree the switching player penalty has never been of sufficient degree.

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    But a model was allowed to be invented by NNSWF by FFA which is why itís so soft

  6. #6
    Senior Member Zico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverRed View Post
    But a model was allowed to be invented by NNSWF by FFA which is why itís so soft
    Why have any restrictions though?
    Clubs that are forward thinking and well ran should be able to succeed while clubs that are poorly ran should reap what they sew.

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    Senior Member Aegon's Avatar
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    My post is on a slightly different tangent but probably appropriate under the thread:

    What do people think the ideal NNSWF NPL structure should look like?

    My opinion is the below (all based on current 1st grade standings and nothing to do with the clubs themselves)

    NPL 1
    8 teams
    Edgeworth - Magic - Olympic - Azzurri - Maitland - Jaffas - Weston - Valentine

    NPL 2
    8 teams
    Adamstown - Lakes - New Lambton - Singleton - Kahibah - Belswans - Cooks Hill - West Wallsend

    NPL 3
    8 teams
    Toronto - Cessnock - South Cardiff - Thornton - Wallsend + 3(E.g. Cardiff, Swansea, Hamilton Azzurri, Mayfield, etc or any of Northern Inland, Mid Coast or Far Nth Coast)


    The plan could be to achieve this within a few seasons.

    Season 1 (2021 for example only)
    1. Competitions maintain current structure
    2. 9th, 10th & 11th at the end of the season in NPL 1 are relegated to NPL 2/NL1 for 2022
    3. Expressions of interest called upon for the NPL 3 extra clubs required for Season 2023


    2022
    1. NPL 1 is 8 teams in a 21 or ideally 28 game season
    2. NPL 2/NL1 is 13 teams in a 24 game season
    3. Promotion/Relegation and Play off games occur between NPL 1 & NPL 2
    4. Positions 9-13 in NPL 2 are relegated to NPL 3 for season 2023


    2023 & onwards
    1. The clubs selected as part of the EOI's in 2021 are added to NPL 3
    2. NPL 1, 2 & 3 run as 8 team competitions
    3. 4 team finals
    4. Last in NPL 1 & 2 auto relegate
    5. Play off games between second last NPL 1 & 2 home and away play off with second place in NPL 2 & 3
    6. First in NPL 2 & 3 auto promote


    The main caveats would be that all clubs move towards certain goals, for example financial, playing field, etc.
    Must have teams in all competitions - 1sts, reserves, 18's (Seniors) 16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    For the new 3 teams they could receive dispensation that they need:
    • All seniors teams by 2023
    • All youth & SAP teams by 2025


    Changes would be required to the player points system to enforce stricter controls on player retention & recruitment as mentioned in the earlier posts in this thread.
    Implement PPS or limitations on movement between clubs at the Youth & SAP level.

    I think the main point of discussion would be around promotion/relegation criteria and whether it would be based on:
    Regular season standings?
    GF Winner/Runner Ups promote?
    Senior club championship?
    Senior + Youth club championship?

    Interested to hear others thoughts on this. Is there a better way forward? Is it pie in the sky?
    Last edited by Aegon; 15-10-2020 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Complete F'd up my team numbers

  8. #8
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    Makes a lot of sense, too much sense for Northern...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegon View Post
    My post is on a slightly different tangent but probably appropriate under the thread:

    What do people think the ideal NNSWF NPL structure should look like?

    My opinion is the below (all based on current 1st grade standings and nothing to do with the clubs themselves)

    NPL 1
    8 teams
    Edgeworth - Magic - Olympic - Azzurri - Maitland - Jaffas - Weston - Valentine

    NPL 2
    8 teams
    Adamstown - Lakes - New Lambton - Singleton - Kahibah - Belswans - Cooks Hill - West Wallsend

    NPL 3
    8 teams
    Toronto - Cessnock - South Cardiff - Thornton - Wallsend + 3(E.g. Cardiff, Swansea, Hamilton Azzurri, Mayfield, etc or any of Northern Inland, Mid Coast or Far Nth Coast)


    The plan could be to achieve this within a few seasons.

    Season 1 (2021 for example only)
    1. Competitions maintain current structure
    2. 9th, 10th & 11th at the end of the season in NPL 1 are relegated to NPL 2/NL1 for 2022
    3. Expressions of interest called upon for the NPL 3 extra clubs required for Season 2023


    2022
    1. NPL 1 is 8 teams in a 21 or ideally 28 game season
    2. NPL 2/NL1 is 13 teams in a 24 game season
    3. Promotion/Relegation and Play off games occur between NPL 1 & NPL 2
    4. Positions 9-13 in NPL 2 are relegated to NPL 3 for season 2023


    2023 & onwards
    1. The clubs selected as part of the EOI's in 2021 are added to NPL 3
    2. NPL 1, 2 & 3 run as 8 team competitions
    3. 4 team finals
    4. Last in NPL 1 & 2 auto relegate
    5. Play off games between second last NPL 1 & 2 home and away play off with second place in NPL 2 & 3
    6. First in NPL 2 & 3 auto promote


    The main caveats would be that all clubs move towards certain goals, for example financial, playing field, etc.
    Must have teams in all competitions - 1sts, reserves, 18's (Seniors) 16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    For the new 3 teams they could receive dispensation that they need:
    • All seniors teams by 2023
    • All youth & SAP teams by 2025


    Changes would be required to the player points system to enforce stricter controls on player retention & recruitment as mentioned in the earlier posts in this thread.
    Implement PPS or limitations on movement between clubs at the Youth & SAP level.

    I think the main point of discussion would be around promotion/relegation criteria and whether it would be based on:
    Regular season standings?
    GF Winner/Runner Ups promote?
    Senior club championship?
    Senior + Youth club championship?

    Interested to hear others thoughts on this. Is there a better way forward? Is it pie in the sky?
    I like the idea and think it is feasible. Definitely a 28 game season as opposed to 21. Yes to all the other points. The biggest area of contention is whether to decouple the youth from seniors or to run it as a club championship as you suggested. If a clubís youth are doing well and their first team fails and gets relegated all those youth would likely leave and go to an NPL 1 club resulting in that relegated club taking two steps back. The last 2 clubs to be relegated in NPL were Lake Macquarie and Valentine and it is clear to see how difficult a rebuild can be.

  10. #10
    Finally someone is speaking sense and reason.

    An eight team 1st division is the only way forward

    NNSW need to pull their heads on facility expectations in a regional town with so many teams and limited sponsorship / grant funds available (due to political landscape).

  11. #11
    Senior Member Hunter403's Avatar
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    Like a lot of what you say Aegon. I think that the Youth stream should have promotion and relegation separate to that of the Senior stream. Pretty obvious that the kids will leave if their club is demoted but there own team does well.

    Maybe limit Youth team "sackings" each season? Not sure on this one but maybe worth discussing.
    "It is not that I am afraid to die; its just that I don't want to be there when it happens" - Woody Allen

  12. #12
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    I love this format your thoughts in my opinion are very close to perfect.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegon View Post
    My post is on a slightly different tangent but probably appropriate under the thread:

    What do people think the ideal NNSWF NPL structure should look like?

    My opinion is the below (all based on current 1st grade standings and nothing to do with the clubs themselves)

    NPL 1
    8 teams
    Edgeworth - Magic - Olympic - Azzurri - Maitland - Jaffas - Weston - Valentine

    NPL 2
    8 teams
    Adamstown - Lakes - New Lambton - Singleton - Kahibah - Belswans - Cooks Hill - West Wallsend

    NPL 3
    8 teams
    Toronto - Cessnock - South Cardiff - Thornton - Wallsend + 3(E.g. Cardiff, Swansea, Hamilton Azzurri, Mayfield, etc or any of Northern Inland, Mid Coast or Far Nth Coast)


    The plan could be to achieve this within a few seasons.

    Season 1 (2021 for example only)
    1. Competitions maintain current structure
    2. 9th, 10th & 11th at the end of the season in NPL 1 are relegated to NPL 2/NL1 for 2022
    3. Expressions of interest called upon for the NPL 3 extra clubs required for Season 2023


    2022
    1. NPL 1 is 8 teams in a 21 or ideally 28 game season
    2. NPL 2/NL1 is 13 teams in a 24 game season
    3. Promotion/Relegation and Play off games occur between NPL 1 & NPL 2
    4. Positions 9-13 in NPL 2 are relegated to NPL 3 for season 2023


    2023 & onwards
    1. The clubs selected as part of the EOI's in 2021 are added to NPL 3
    2. NPL 1, 2 & 3 run as 8 team competitions
    3. 4 team finals
    4. Last in NPL 1 & 2 auto relegate
    5. Play off games between second last NPL 1 & 2 home and away play off with second place in NPL 2 & 3
    6. First in NPL 2 & 3 auto promote


    The main caveats would be that all clubs move towards certain goals, for example financial, playing field, etc.
    Must have teams in all competitions - 1sts, reserves, 18's (Seniors) 16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    For the new 3 teams they could receive dispensation that they need:
    • All seniors teams by 2023
    • All youth & SAP teams by 2025


    Changes would be required to the player points system to enforce stricter controls on player retention & recruitment as mentioned in the earlier posts in this thread.
    Implement PPS or limitations on movement between clubs at the Youth & SAP level.

    I think the main point of discussion would be around promotion/relegation criteria and whether it would be based on:
    Regular season standings?
    GF Winner/Runner Ups promote?
    Senior club championship?
    Senior + Youth club championship?

    Interested to hear others thoughts on this. Is there a better way forward? Is it pie in the sky?
    Can we all just copy this and spam northern with it until they get onboard!!!

  14. #14
    I think this is a great proposition. Gives the game the most room to move and grow instead of the stagnant format we have now.

    Promotion/relegation and more games is key to creating an overall higher standard of football in Northern

  15. #15
    similar to Scottish model

  16. #16
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    The main caveats would be that all clubs move towards certain goals, for example financial, playing field, etc.
    Must have teams in all competitions - 1sts, reserves, 18's (Seniors) 16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    For the new 3 teams they could receive dispensation that they need:
    [LIST][*]All seniors teams by 2023[*]All youth & SAP teams by 2025
    Changes would be required to the player points system to enforce stricter controls on player retention & recruitment as mentioned in the earlier posts in this thread.
    Implement PPS or limitations on movement between clubs at the Youth & SAP
    [/QUOTE]

    sounds good, but i not sure if there is enough youth players good enough to fulfill this (16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    i know its only 4 more teams technically, but the other pages are showing the gripes of parents/coaches/onlookers about ability, skill etc.

    Why not make it one 12/14 team comp, with the chance of promotion/relegation from/to ZPL, this would sort out the contenders and the pretenders in all aspect's.
    clubs should only have to have 16, 15, 14 and 13's youth teams, if someone is promoted the youth players float between clubs as they used to, its not like there is any loyalty currently.
    Looking from the outside i think SAP is just a money making scam anyway.
    Last edited by Jardelsimage; 17-10-2020 at 08:20 AM.

  17. #17
    Why not make it one 12/14 team comp, with the chance of promotion/relegation from/to ZPL, this would sort out the contenders and the pretenders in all aspect's.
    clubs should only have to have 16, 15, 14 and 13's youth teams, if someone is promoted the youth players float between clubs as they used to, its not like there is any loyalty currently.
    Looking from the outside i think SAP is just a money making scam anyway.[/QUOTE]

    The quality from the 1st to the 12th/14th team would possibly be to much over the length of the season.

    By having 3 npl tiers each different tiers quality would be closer from 1-8.

    Promotion/relegation between them would ensure teams have something to play for all season.

    I agree with stopping it at 13s, let the local clubs and training academies feed into the 3 npl tiers starting with 13s.

    Leave zone league for the local clubs without juniors attached, or just community minded junior teams.

    Once a zone league club gets serious/strong enough, let them push into npl 3.

    Long term the demographic and population growth of Newcastle is changing, we need to have a system that let's newer clubs have a path to the top.

  18. #18
    12 teams in top comp is too many. 10 max. And if 10 teams have last down and 2nd last playoff.

    NPL 1 & 2 Juniors not aligned to seniors

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jardelsimage View Post
    The main caveats would be that all clubs move towards certain goals, for example financial, playing field, etc.
    Must have teams in all competitions - 1sts, reserves, 18's (Seniors) 16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    For the new 3 teams they could receive dispensation that they need:
    [LIST][*]All seniors teams by 2023[*]All youth & SAP teams by 2025
    Changes would be required to the player points system to enforce stricter controls on player retention & recruitment as mentioned in the earlier posts in this thread.
    Implement PPS or limitations on movement between clubs at the Youth & SAP
    sounds good, but i not sure if there is enough youth players good enough to fulfill this (16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    i know its only 4 more teams technically, but the other pages are showing the gripes of parents/coaches/onlookers about ability, skill etc.

    Why not make it one 12/14 team comp, with the chance of promotion/relegation from/to ZPL, this would sort out the contenders and the pretenders in all aspect's.
    clubs should only have to have 16, 15, 14 and 13's youth teams, if someone is promoted the youth players float between clubs as they used to, its not like there is any loyalty currently.
    Looking from the outside i think SAP is just a money making scam anyway.[/QUOTE]

    why are we limiting player movement? If kids are good enough to be selected into an a-league academy, but the team has let 5 non-performing players go, are you saying they wouldn't then be allowed to leave? Kids leave for lots of reasons, some quit, some move, some simply aren't up to NPL standard, for example not turning up to training, stuffing around, being disrespectful. Yes theres kids like that taking up the place of another kid that actually wants to do the work and be there.

    If the club had to then keep those players why should my kid get stuck playing with them, its inherently unfair to the rest of the team. You can't restrict movement, its like telling you that you don't have a choice and have to work at the same company for 6 years, even if a better offer comes up, or your boss beats you with a plank of wood every day.

    Part of NPL is kids learning how to pull their weight and earn their place, that's why they don't want to play community football.

    Also SAP was once upon a time a decent program. The kids coming through from the old SAP are still some of the best in NPL, the new program was never going to match that once it become a free for all. Its really disappointing to watch the forum to see the absolute debarcle of dick measuring it has become.

    Even those kids that were once MQ, Newcastle, HV, can get in a team together at NPL level and get along, even though they came from different programs. With the club mentality now, that respect and decency that could have been imparted in those kids is out the window. Maybe northern needs to run an ethics class for the parents, because most of the ones on the forums seem to completely miss the point. It is slowly being diluted away to nothing, isn't it called a premier league or something next season? Its sad to see a development program end up that way.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KITZ View Post
    sounds good, but i not sure if there is enough youth players good enough to fulfill this (16's, 15's, 14's & 13's (Youth) & 12's, 11's, 10's & 9's (SAP)
    i know its only 4 more teams technically, but the other pages are showing the gripes of parents/coaches/onlookers about ability, skill etc.

    Why not make it one 12/14 team comp, with the chance of promotion/relegation from/to ZPL, this would sort out the contenders and the pretenders in all aspect's.
    clubs should only have to have 16, 15, 14 and 13's youth teams, if someone is promoted the youth players float between clubs as they used to, its not like there is any loyalty currently.
    Looking from the outside i think SAP is just a money making scam anyway.
    why are we limiting player movement? If kids are good enough to be selected into an a-league academy, but the team has let 5 non-performing players go, are you saying they wouldn't then be allowed to leave? Kids leave for lots of reasons, some quit, some move, some simply aren't up to NPL standard, for example not turning up to training, stuffing around, being disrespectful. Yes theres kids like that taking up the place of another kid that actually wants to do the work and be there.

    If the club had to then keep those players why should my kid get stuck playing with them, its inherently unfair to the rest of the team. You can't restrict movement, its like telling you that you don't have a choice and have to work at the same company for 6 years, even if a better offer comes up, or your boss beats you with a plank of wood every day.

    Part of NPL is kids learning how to pull their weight and earn their place, that's why they don't want to play community football.

    Also SAP was once upon a time a decent program. The kids coming through from the old SAP are still some of the best in NPL, the new program was never going to match that once it become a free for all. Its really disappointing to watch the forum to see the absolute debarcle of dick measuring it has become.

    Even those kids that were once MQ, Newcastle, HV, can get in a team together at NPL level and get along, even though they came from different programs. With the club mentality now, that respect and decency that could have been imparted in those kids is out the window. Maybe northern needs to run an ethics class for the parents, because most of the ones on the forums seem to completely miss the point. It is slowly being diluted away to nothing, isn't it called a premier league or something next season? Its sad to see a development program end up that way.
    [/QUOTE]

    the original was not posted by me and i dont think we should be limiting player movement especially in youth or development stages.
    It would be good to teach kids loyalty to clubs, but that went out the window years ago.
    on kids learning how to pull there weight earn their place, i think that is part of the issue with our local football, there are still to many parents willing to pay for their child to play higher, just to boost their own ego's and to many clubs willing to take there money.

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