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Thread: 2021 Premier Club SAP

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by scowling;246***
    NLFC Under 10 Navy v Toronto Awaba

    I assumed the smaller field was just for U09s and they hadn't changed it, is that not the case? TBH it didn't make that much difference, there was still enough space when required. I'll be in a better position to judge it if/when we come up against a stronger opposition.
    Completely agree, in regards to field size, i wasn't able to give a true indication how it will impact but it is for U9 and U10s due to the opposition, they have made the field significantly smaller though.

    as for grading, this has not been handled well at all by the association, clearly with the significant score lines (yes results don't matter but kids know if they are getting flogged each week and chasing shadows)

    interesting to know if other clubs (that have two teams) are running with a A and B side or two even teams?

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Cunning stunts View Post
    Completely agree, in regards to field size, i wasn't able to give a true indication how it will impact but it is for U9 and U10s due to the opposition, they have made the field significantly smaller though.

    as for grading, this has not been handled well at all by the association, clearly with the significant score lines (yes results don't matter but kids know if they are getting flogged each week and chasing shadows)

    interesting to know if other clubs (that have two teams) are running with a A and B side or two even teams?
    At NLFC in U10s we're quasi-A and B teams - This is to allow the better players to push each other at training; and we have regular games against the other U10 side to give them a challenge, and most are responding to it.

    I think I've said it before here - the problem with the grading is the opaqueness of it. The lack of transparency into the process leaves those outside the inner circle feeling like it was a hot mess.
    If the Toronto team we played on the weekend gets thumped week-in week-out we'll end up actually losing kids to football. Which I'm sure no one wants to see. And of course those families are paying relatively big-money to see their kids in tears.

    However, if the grading was conducted openly (I've got thoughts about how this could have happened) I believe you'd have a lot more people on board with the decisions.

    I'm not having allusions of grandeur here - our team would struggle against the best teams in U10s - but we would hold our own against most of the next tier. And in doing so would develop as players and as a team. Which surely is the point of grading.

    I had a great chat with one of the new NNSWF people on Saturday which allows me to retain some confidence that this will eventually be sorted out.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by scowling View Post
    How was your experience?
    our young one was stoked to be back on a much bigger field and it was great to see the kids make use of the space after many weeks on a much smaller field.

    Only downfall as others have stated was the one sided scoreline, by the second half you could see the energy just dropped right out of the game. it'll be hard for teams both winning and loosing by big margins to keep the effort at 100% for the full 60 minutes.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by scowling View Post
    At NLFC in U10s we're quasi-A and B teams - This is to allow the better players to push each other at training; and we have regular games against the other U10 side to give them a challenge, and most are responding to it.

    I think I've said it before here - the problem with the grading is the opaqueness of it. The lack of transparency into the process leaves those outside the inner circle feeling like it was a hot mess.
    If the Toronto team we played on the weekend gets thumped week-in week-out we'll end up actually losing kids to football. Which I'm sure no one wants to see. And of course those families are paying relatively big-money to see their kids in tears.

    However, if the grading was conducted openly (I've got thoughts about how this could have happened) I believe you'd have a lot more people on board with the decisions.

    I'm not having allusions of grandeur here - our team would struggle against the best teams in U10s - but we would hold our own against most of the next tier. And in doing so would develop as players and as a team. Which surely is the point of grading.

    I had a great chat with one of the new NNSWF people on Saturday which allows me to retain some confidence that this will eventually be sorted out.
    The original concept when the premier club SAP came in was probably the closest theyíve had it, and if they had of stuck with that model then grading the 11s and 12s would be pretty simple.

    The original season had 16 clubs mostly with 2 teams each and played 2 games a day.

    With the tweaks made to one game if they had of stayed with the 16 clubs and split into two pools based on actual results from the year prior, you would find the weekend games would be much closer games and overall better for their development. Itís not perfect as I understand some teams change players and move clubs etc but overall would level out the playing field.

    Some clubs would still have an A and B teams which would probably allow their A team to compete with the stronger clubs and the B team would be very competitive in pool B..

    The more clubs that get involved the more diluted the program becomes, the hard it is to grade the draw, the less development we will see and the more disappointed parents will become in the system.

    Itís unfortunate but when the almighty dollar takes precedence over quality we end up with what we have now.

    Cut the team numbers, make it a genuine premier competition which still has room for 320 of the age groups best U9s through to 360 of the age groups best U12s..

    Before people judge the above, letís be real and understand that itís impossible to have the resources and man power to run 16 premier programs for development across the clubs let alone more the way it is run now.

    Breakdown the numbers required to run the program just for JDL/SAP with only 16 clubs having a license with two teams in each age group

    16 TDs
    16 coordinators
    128 coaches
    1300 plus kids

    All suppose to be of the level above community football under the premier competition banner and this is just U9s-12s

    The regional football bodies (HV, Macquarie and Newcastle) should be working within the community football clubs from U7s - 12s with their programs and training days to help identify potential JDL level kids and identify them to clubs in their region.

    Itís not a perfect system but I think you will find it would improve the quality in development of the kids, better training, better coaching, better games and happier kids

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunning stunts View Post
    Completely agree, in regards to field size, i wasn't able to give a true indication how it will impact but it is for U9 and U10s due to the opposition, they have made the field significantly smaller though.

    as for grading, this has not been handled well at all by the association, clearly with the significant score lines (yes results don't matter but kids know if they are getting flogged each week and chasing shadows)

    interesting to know if other clubs (that have two teams) are running with a A and B side or two even teams?
    The following is based on knowledge of my sons club and information passed on to me by friends who have their kids at other clubs. It is more focused towards 11's & 12's though so there may be some inaccuracies in the younger age groups.

    Not running A & B Squads

    • Magic
    • Jaffas
    • Olympic


    Running A & B Squads
    • Maitland (Single team in 12's)
    • New Lambton
    • Valentine
    • Weston


    Unsure
    • Azzurri (Single team in 12's)
    • Edgeworth (they seem to change players between squads frequently)
    • Central Coast


    Single teams
    • Rosebuds
    • Lakes
    • Wallsend
    • South Cardiff
    • Kahibah
    • Cook Hill
    • West Wallsend
    Last edited by Aegon; 19-04-2021 at 02:19 PM.
    All opinions expressed here are my own.

    "Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegon View Post
    The following is based on knowledge of my sons club and information passed on to me by friends who have their kids at other clubs. It is more focused towards 11's & 12's though so there may be some inaccuracies in the younger age groups.

    Not running A & B Squads

    • Magic
    • Jaffas
    • Olympic


    Running A & B Squads
    • Maitland
    • New Lambton
    • Valentine
    • Weston


    Unsure
    • Azzurri
    • Edgeworth (they seem to change players between squads frequently)
    • Central Coast


    Single teams
    • Rosebuds
    • Lakes
    • Wallsend
    • South Cardiff
    • Kahibah
    • Cook Hill
    In the 12s

    Jaffas running A+B
    Maitland single team only
    Azzuri single team only

    and we should be thankful that Magic and Hamilton arenít running A and B teams, the A teams would clean up against all teams and the B teams would still beat most.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal222 View Post
    In the 12s

    Jaffas running A+B
    Maitland single team only
    Azzuri single team only

    and we should be thankful that Magic and Hamilton aren’t running A and B teams, the A teams would clean up against all teams and the B teams would still beat most.
    Not sure where you get the A/B U12's Jaffa's info from. One of the squads may be stronger than the other but it definitely hasn't been communicated as such.
    All opinions expressed here are my own.

    "Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegon View Post
    Not sure where you get the A/B U12's Jaffa's info from. One of the squads may be stronger than the other but it definitely hasn't been communicated as such.
    Not sure how they are defining it but Jaffas and Edgy in 12's are similar.One team is stronger than the other but not by design.Magic 12's def had one stronger team last year but the recruitment of some quality players and coach will see both their teams equally as strong in no time.I'll say one thing in terms of running A and B teams.In one club the TD wanted A + B and the coach supported it because in his opinion 1/2 the squad were way more committed to the program.He wanted all of them together to give them the best chance of individually achieving their goals.If you know the kids involved its clear to say they were right as the best of them are in the top tier of players and the kids who didnt seem as keen have not kicked on as much.After watching how it panned out A + B worked in that instance, and is that better than kicking kids out every year in the pursuit of 2 even teams, or cutting squads in half and running one team?There is no perfect solution.
    Next year in 13's kids are all back to square one.The best JDL kids will be guaranteed a spot (and teams are already looking that far ahead), the rest will be filled from JDL kids who trial well, community kids who went a different path and are just as good if not better.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isthisforreal View Post
    The original concept when the premier club SAP came in was probably the closest they’ve had it, and if they had of stuck with that model then grading the 11s and 12s would be pretty simple.

    The original season had 16 clubs mostly with 2 teams each and played 2 games a day.

    With the tweaks made to one game if they had of stayed with the 16 clubs and split into two pools based on actual results from the year prior, you would find the weekend games would be much closer games and overall better for their development. It’s not perfect as I understand some teams change players and move clubs etc but overall would level out the playing field.

    Some clubs would still have an A and B teams which would probably allow their A team to compete with the stronger clubs and the B team would be very competitive in pool B..

    The more clubs that get involved the more diluted the program becomes, the hard it is to grade the draw, the less development we will see and the more disappointed parents will become in the system.

    It’s unfortunate but when the almighty dollar takes precedence over quality we end up with what we have now.

    Cut the team numbers, make it a genuine premier competition which still has room for 320 of the age groups best U9s through to 360 of the age groups best U12s..

    Before people judge the above, let’s be real and understand that it’s impossible to have the resources and man power to run 16 premier programs for development across the clubs let alone more the way it is run now.

    Breakdown the numbers required to run the program just for JDL/SAP with only 16 clubs having a license with two teams in each age group

    16 TDs
    16 coordinators
    128 coaches
    1300 plus kids

    All suppose to be of the level above community football under the premier competition banner and this is just U9s-12s

    The regional football bodies (HV, Macquarie and Newcastle) should be working within the community football clubs from U7s - 12s with their programs and training days to help identify potential JDL level kids and identify them to clubs in their region.

    It’s not a perfect system but I think you will find it would improve the quality in development of the kids, better training, better coaching, better games and happier kids
    Great post,but one thing ill point out is the other side of that argument is trying to expose as many kids as possible to the program.Junior football had been seen as a closed shop so getting more kids into the training and development side of things was an admirable goal.The last thing we want are good athletes who love the sport not being able to find a spot due to geography/circumstances.Id also love the clubs that have been poorer participants in the program to have a good look at where they are going wrong and to get help from NNSW to improve their standards.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegon View Post
    Not sure where you get the A/B U12's Jaffa's info from. One of the squads may be stronger than the other but it definitely hasn't been communicated as such.
    Take the blinkers off, if you canít see it from within after a few years of being with the club. Everything happens at the Jaffas by design, they donít use a megaphone to communicate it.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapdad View Post
    Great post,but one thing ill point out is the other side of that argument is trying to expose as many kids as possible to the program.Junior football had been seen as a closed shop so getting more kids into the training and development side of things was an admirable goal.The last thing we want are good athletes who love the sport not being able to find a spot due to geography/circumstances.Id also love the clubs that have been poorer participants in the program to have a good look at where they are going wrong and to get help from NNSW to improve their standards.
    I agree, great post and finally some common sense.

    Understand your further points on the exposures but there comes a point looking for the 3% of kids who may fall through the cracks is coming at the expense of the 97% of kids who are deserved of a spot in a high quality JDL program.

    The numbers quoted are still really high volumes of kids, and it doesnít exclude anyone from playing soccer if theyíre in community football and they standout Iím sure someone will tap them on the shoulder at some point.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal222 View Post
    Take the blinkers off, if you can’t see it from within after a few years of being with the club. Everything happens at the Jaffas by design, they don’t use a megaphone to communicate it.
    If it was obvious that all the strong players were in one team then I might agree, there are players in both squads that are stronger than the other. One team has an absolute stand out player which makes them stronger, this doesn't mean it was a A/B squad split.
    All opinions expressed here are my own.

    "Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin

  13. #273
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    Very interesting facebook post to NNSWF on the JDL grading process and draw:

    https://www.facebook.com/nnswf/posts/4251393518224666
    All opinions expressed here are my own.

    "Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegon View Post
    Very interesting facebook post to NNSWF on the JDL grading process and draw:

    https://www.facebook.com/nnswf/posts/4251393518224666
    Its just the same old complaints from the same type of people.As stated before I've got sympathy for NL parents as their JDL teams have always been better than a spot in a '2nd division'.The fact that parents on there were judging everything by wins and losses meant most of them still dont get the program though.Ill also never get sick of people trying to convince me how awesome Clayton Zane and Cas Wright are though.It must be in their players starter packs or something they need tell 6 people a year or their kid wont get picked.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by sapdad View Post
    Its just the same old complaints from the same type of people.As stated before I've got sympathy for NL parents as their JDL teams have always been better than a spot in a '2nd division'.The fact that parents on there were judging everything by wins and losses meant most of them still dont get the program though.Ill also never get sick of people trying to convince me how awesome Clayton Zane and Cas Wright are though.It must be in their players starter packs or something they need tell 6 people a year or their kid wont get picked.
    (non facebooker) Can I assume that this is a post written by someone to NNSWF? And can I also assume from your comment that their is little to no new information to be revealed?

    As a side note, for most parents/grandparents the only metric they understand is goals for and against. As a coach I do try and communicate that the score is not an important metric, but in a lot of cases it's the most visible and memorable one. I'm guessing none of the 20+ kids playing in our game on the weekend will forget the score.

    From my perspective my kids ticked boxes across all four core skills, and alongside that I am starting to see their football knowledge increase as demonstrated through their on field decision making and their post game feedback on their own games.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by scowling View Post
    (non facebooker) Can I assume that this is a post written by someone to NNSWF? And can I also assume from your comment that their is little to no new information to be revealed?

    As a side note, for most parents/grandparents the only metric they understand is goals for and against. As a coach I do try and communicate that the score is not an important metric, but in a lot of cases it's the most visible and memorable one. I'm guessing none of the 20+ kids playing in our game on the weekend will forget the score.

    From my perspective my kids ticked boxes across all four core skills, and alongside that I am starting to see their football knowledge increase as demonstrated through their on field decision making and their post game feedback on their own games.
    Yes the scoreline is no way anyway important to the entire JDL/SAP structure and intent of the program but its all we have a guide to help adjust and make games a little more even because i can tell you for a fact the team getting spanked 18-0 on a weekend are not getting the same opportunity to put skills learned into practice in a game environment as 2 teams that are more evenly matched in a proper graded draw

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by scowling View Post
    (non facebooker) Can I assume that this is a post written by someone to NNSWF? And can I also assume from your comment that their is little to no new information to be revealed?

    As a side note, for most parents/grandparents the only metric they understand is goals for and against. As a coach I do try and communicate that the score is not an important metric, but in a lot of cases it's the most visible and memorable one. I'm guessing none of the 20+ kids playing in our game on the weekend will forget the score.

    From my perspective my kids ticked boxes across all four core skills, and alongside that I am starting to see their football knowledge increase as demonstrated through their on field decision making and their post game feedback on their own games.
    You didn't miss much. Yet another bunch of comments from parents who's clubs haven't educated them to A - not post scores about 9 year olds on social media. and B - completely miss the point of the whole program... If a player scores a ton of goals in a game but stuffs around every single time because they need to put the ball on their right foot then they have missed an important development opportunity to learn to use BOTH feet, if you have that many chances in front of goal then THATS the skill you should have been working on - if you didn't then as far as I'm concerned you might as well have lost by that many. All the parents worried about how many goals are being scored but don't bother to actually look at their kids development. These are also things you can teach kids - what was the goal for today? focus on 1v1 or try and pass with our weaker foot? did we achieve that? Yes - then that's all that matters, because when it comes to moving into the tactical game training phase the coach knows that he doesn't have to go back over stuff you should have been learning during skills acquisition.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by KITZ View Post
    You didn't miss much. Yet another bunch of comments from parents who's clubs haven't educated them to A - not post scores about 9 year olds on social media. and B - completely miss the point of the whole program... If a player scores a ton of goals in a game but stuffs around every single time because they need to put the ball on their right foot then they have missed an important development opportunity to learn to use BOTH feet, if you have that many chances in front of goal then THATS the skill you should have been working on - if you didn't then as far as I'm concerned you might as well have lost by that many. All the parents worried about how many goals are being scored but don't bother to actually look at their kids development. These are also things you can teach kids - what was the goal for today? focus on 1v1 or try and pass with our weaker foot? did we achieve that? Yes - then that's all that matters, because when it comes to moving into the tactical game training phase the coach knows that he doesn't have to go back over stuff you should have been learning during skills acquisition.
    I personally think you are missing the point. For the majority of kids it is about enjoyment.

    Enjoyment encourages development.

    If you set up kids to play in non competitive games week in week out then the majority of kids (who know what the score is and how much they lost by) will not enjoy themselves. For the kids doing it easy each week they develop inflated self opinions and bad habits.

    Kids are not going to keep wanting to take the field knowing they have no chance of "winning"
    Last edited by Aegon; 20-04-2021 at 04:34 PM.
    All opinions expressed here are my own.

    "Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideline88 View Post
    Yes the scoreline is no way anyway important to the entire JDL/SAP structure and intent of the program but its all we have a guide to help adjust and make games a little more even because i can tell you for a fact the team getting spanked 18-0 on a weekend are not getting the same opportunity to put skills learned into practice in a game environment as 2 teams that are more evenly matched in a proper graded draw
    Agreed, neither team in lopsided games are learning much at all.
    All opinions expressed here are my own.

    "Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by scowling View Post
    (non facebooker) Can I assume that this is a post written by someone to NNSWF? And can I also assume from your comment that their is little to no new information to be revealed?

    As a side note, for most parents/grandparents the only metric they understand is goals for and against. As a coach I do try and communicate that the score is not an important metric, but in a lot of cases it's the most visible and memorable one. I'm guessing none of the 20+ kids playing in our game on the weekend will forget the score.

    From my perspective my kids ticked boxes across all four core skills, and alongside that I am starting to see their football knowledge increase as demonstrated through their on field decision making and their post game feedback on their own games.
    Hard to summarise as there are 100+ comments following the original post.

    What I got out of it is that NNSWF have not communicated the intention of using the small sided games for grading adequately, nor implemented the grading effectively post small sided games.
    Regardless of their intention they now have a lot of unhappy parents.

    No NNSWF response either.
    All opinions expressed here are my own.

    "Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin

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