The Politics/Religion/Conspiracies Deathmatch Thread

[GazFish35]

But serious question: in your mind exactly what did Rudds apology achieve? and do you think it has made things better/worse or the same for indigenous Australians?

It was no silver bullet, but it's opened dialogue and improved understanding within younger generations.
Sadly, not in all areas of the nation.

I had the privilege of watching the apology in a room with 400+ kids of varying cultural backgrounds and a number of aboriginal community leaders and the profound impact it had on the individuals in the room - many directly impacted by the stolen generations - can not be understated, nor the impact it had the collective understanding of the impacts the government policies had and still have on aboriginal people.

It's was a very important step forward for improving things for Aboriginal Australians.

[furns]

To answer an earlier question about why the Abbott government is the worst in history - here's some stats
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/is-ton...03-giqtnx.html

[MFKS]

"This constant bringing up of the past achieves little but more division"
Complete BS.

It's the constant ignoring of the past by non-indigenous Australia that causes the division.

Aboriginal Australia has been attempting to instigate change for decades, but government policy limiting self determination has impeded this.

For decades, centuries even, government policy and action has not been about listening to, or respecting aboriginal culture or people, but controlling it.

Indigenous Australians deserve far greater respect than they have been afforded since 1788 and allowing them to speak openly and freely of the way they would like to represented in the constitution should be only another step forward. Having the rest of us tell them "here's your options, pick the best we give you" isn't acceptable for a culture with a longer continuous history than any other on the planet. It's an insult and and embarrassment.

What realities are Aboriginal Australia ignoring?

From what I see, and from those in my community that I speak to, the realities are being faced, and in many communities they are being overcome, largely through community based leadership and open dialogue. Not overriding government control.


The indigenous leaders in this article aren't asking for control of the constitutional change process. They're asking for open dialogue and being able to lead the discussions towards consensus. Why should that be held from them?

Constant ignoring of the past that causes the divisions is the problem you say.

I was born 190 years after Invasion Day. Can you enlighten me as to what I am to be sorry for being that I took no part in it??

I was also born well after Stolen Generation stuff ceased being practice in Australia. Why exactly am I responsible for this??


Does anyone who is German and was born after 1945 have to apoligise constantly for what their ancestors done between 1938-1945??

[plague]

To answer an earlier question about why the Abbott government is the worst in history - here's some stats
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/is-ton...03-giqtnx.html

That's quite possibly the most embarrassing overreach I've ever seen.
Did you read the article?
Young spent the whole article saying 'well this could mean anything and there's a whole bunch of factors I've kind of glossed over but THEY SUCK!!!'.

So you want to talk about not passing legislation that BOTH parties went to the last election with but Lab/Grn blocked in the senate even though it was their own policy?

What you've posted there is no better than Andrew Bolt denying the stolen generation, he's got plenty of facts to back his argument.
But it's just the bits he leaves out that are a bit of an inconvenience.

If you're gonna ride for shit like this you have no grounds to complain about the Murdoch ****s in the future.

[plague]

It was no silver bullet, but it's opened dialogue and improved understanding within younger generations.
Sadly, not in all areas of the nation.

I had the privilege of watching the apology in a room with 400+ kids of varying cultural backgrounds and a number of aboriginal community leaders and the profound impact it had on the individuals in the room - many directly impacted by the stolen generations - can not be understated, nor the impact it had the collective understanding of the impacts the government policies had and still have on aboriginal people.

It's was a very important step forward for improving things for Aboriginal Australians.

Yeah I've no doubt that as a gesture it meant a hell of a lot to a lot of people.
I actually wish Howard had done it. It's going to stain a lot of people's opinions of him.

But now we are what 7-8 years on do you think we are any better off?
See, I'd have loved the apology to be part of a much bigger reform in order to lift education standards, mortality rates etc. I just don't think enough was done at a time when everyone was focusing on the issue.
I wish Twiggy Forrests' approach was adopted across a broader range of industry but here we are all that time later and have we really done a thing?

[plague]

This Donald Trump stuff fascinates me.

[GazFish35]

Constant ignoring of the past that causes the divisions is the problem you say.

I was born 190 years after Invasion Day. Can you enlighten me as to what I am to be sorry for being that I took no part in it??

I was also born well after Stolen Generation stuff ceased being practice in Australia. Why exactly am I responsible for this??


Does anyone who is German and was born after 1945 have to apoligise constantly for what their ancestors done between 1938-1945??

Being sorry that something happened and acknowledging the impact an event has had, and continues to have had doesn't make you responsible.

When a friend loses a family member, most people acknowledge the losses and pain caused by saying "I'm sorry" it doesn't mean they killed the person.

And while you may not have taken part in the first fleets arrival, you've no doubt benefited from it. Benefits that came at the detriment of others, from land being taken and cultures destroyed.

I didn't steal William Tyrell from his front yard, but I'd still offer condolences and respect the pain and suffering his family feel..... Multiply that one child being taken, by thousands and thousands, over decades, and by the government.... I reckon acknowledging things were ****ed up is just the start.


Born well after it all happened? How old are you?
Kids were still being taken well into the 70's and some of the homes that they were sent to were still operating in the 1980's


The impact of these policies is still being felt today, aboriginal culture is strong in kinship and connection to country, many indigenous people have had those links torn from them.


You're right, the modern day Germans shouldn't have to appolgise for the actions of their forefathers in the war years, but as a nation they don't it didn't happen, denying the halocaust is a crime..... Why is okay to ignore the genocide that occurred here?

[GazFish35]

Yeah I've no doubt that as a gesture it meant a hell of a lot to a lot of people.
I actually wish Howard had done it. It's going to stain a lot of people's opinions of him.

But now we are what 7-8 years on do you think we are any better off?
See, I'd have loved the apology to be part of a much bigger reform in order to lift education standards, mortality rates etc. I just don't think enough was done at a time when everyone was focusing on the issue.
I wish Twiggy Forrests' approach was adopted across a broader range of industry but here we are all that time later and have we really done a thing?

I do think we are better off, though. Agree the ball was dropped..... But that was Rudd all over.

If it wasn't for the apology we'd not be having this constitutional reform discussion.

[plague]

If it wasn't for the apology we'd not be having this constitutional reform discussion.

Excellent point.
Cheers.

[MFKS]

Being sorry that something happened and acknowledging the impact an event has had, and continues to have had doesn't make you responsible.

When a friend loses a family member, most people acknowledge the losses and pain caused by saying "I'm sorry" it doesn't mean they killed the person.

And while you may not have taken part in the first fleets arrival, you've no doubt benefited from it. Benefits that came at the detriment of others, from land being taken and cultures destroyed.

I didn't steal William Tyrell from his front yard, but I'd still offer condolences and respect the pain and suffering his family feel..... Multiply that one child being taken, by thousands and thousands, over decades, and by the government.... I reckon acknowledging things were ****ed up is just the start.


Born well after it all happened? How old are you?
Kids were still being taken well into the 70's and some of the homes that they were sent to were still operating in the 1980's


The impact of these policies is still being felt today, aboriginal culture is strong in kinship and connection to country, many indigenous people have had those links torn from them.


You're right, the modern day Germans shouldn't have to appolgise for the actions of their forefathers in the war years, but as a nation they don't it didn't happen, denying the halocaust is a crime..... Why is okay to ignore the genocide that occurred here?

No one is denying it happened. No one is saying it is right with what has transpired.

What exactly is it they are after??

Whatever it is who though should be responsible to pay the debt.

If we are talking Invasion Day then the blame for that does not rest with Australia or Australian people.

The blame for that can be directed at two wealthy organisations responsible. Firstly the British Government which signed off on establishing the penal colony in Australia. Secondly the British Royal Family also signed off on it as well.

Last I looked no one is asking them to pay the debt.

As for the Stolen Generation Issue the Australian Government has issued an apology. Why is more required??

Kevin Rudd apologised on behalf of the country for the decisions made by people well before him.


If more is required why is the onus on people who have not been responsible for the matters to make amends??


History has been written already.
Until the Aboriginal people actually accept the matter has occurred and move on we are going nowhere. This will still be prevalent in 200 more years time

[GazFish35]

My argument is that it's difficult to "move on" from when mainstream Australia still deny its impacts.

Bit like the Catholic Church expecting it's victims to "move on" while the institution stil denied things ever went on.



What is it that they're after?

From my experience many communities are after Self-determination and support for local initiatives improving their communities, not broad sweeping ill advised interventions based on myth and lies.

But hey, why don't we ask them..... Oh wait, the govt. didn't want that.

[plague]

No one is denying it happened.

Andrew Bolt is denying it happened.
No really, he is.

And if you read his argument and believe what he says then you can argue he's right.

A lot of people read Andrew Bolt and may agree with him.

That's the sort of stuff Indigenous Australians are up against.

[MFKS]

My argument is that it's difficult to "move on" from when mainstream Australia still deny its impacts.

Bit like the Catholic Church expecting it's victims to "move on" while the institution stil denied things ever went on.



What is it that they're after?

From my experience many communities are after Self-determination and support for local initiatives improving their communities, not broad sweeping ill advised interventions based on myth and lies.

But hey, why don't we ask them..... Oh wait, the govt. didn't want that.

Don't know why the Catholic Church priest thing comes up.

Catholics are deeply offended by the sex abuse by priests. Make no mistake about that.

The hierarchy of the churches handling of it was/is disgraceful as it goes against what Catholics believe in with God.


No Catholic with a clue can defend the Catholic Church's handling of sex abuse matters within its realms. They don't want to and thoroughly condemn the Church leaders for it.


Two really good reasons why the Church will never fully get its head around this issue.

Litigation Cases that would be forth coming and Negative Publicity from more sex abuse cases being aired publically.

Should they be letting these issues stop them cleaning house?? No they should wear what ever comes there way. Reality is Pigs will Fly down Hunter St before that day occurs

[GazFish35]

It comes up as a timely reminder of the impact an institution can have on a population.

One reminder that people seem to be able to get their heads around better than the treatment of aboriginal people by successive governments.

[plague]

attn: Furns and Mr Fish
A smarter person than I has summed up the constitution issue with better words.
Hope link works:
http://m.smh.com.au/comment/its-time...05-gis9p1.html

[plague]

Oh, and I'm not trying to say "he's right" it's more like "this is what I was trying to say but my words are not as good".

[The Dunster]

If the Aboriginal people had a more effective Stop the Boats strategy 250 years ago none of this would be an issue.

[GazFish35]

Oh, and I'm not trying to say "he's right" it's more like "this is what I was trying to say but my words are not as good".

He makes some good points, but still all a into the mistake of making statements like this

Aboriginal children are abused and neglected on an industrial scale. Violence against Aboriginal women is endemic. Entire communities live from dole payment to dole payment. Areas in towns, cities or settlements with large Indigenous populations often become crime zones and welfare sinks.

Without actually putting things into context, I. That the issues he lists here are to unique or exclusive to aboriginal communities, they are low socio-economic issues experienced by all cultural backgrounds living below the poverty line. AND that many of the reasons behind aboriginal Australia ending up below the poverty line is linked to successive government policy dating back decades.

The indegenous leaders asking for more input into the start of this process aren't asking for exclusive input.... Something which abbotts language has suggested they are.

[The Dunster]

pretty much every creditable study into alcohol consumption notes a positive correlation between income and consumption.

The more you earn the more alcohol you consume. Given the low incomes of many Aboriginal people the picture painted by A Current Affair and the like is false.

With respect to child abuse again you hear a lot of stories in the mainstream media but rarely any prosecutions even with large scale state investigations.

The idea that people with such low incomes and access to resources could somehow cover up their actions is ridiculous to say the least.

No doubt such crimes occur but the frequency by which they occur could even be less than they are happening in the main stream.

As an example. 60mins Journos would always put a few grand on the bar whenever they visited Walgett or Brewarrina so they could get the footage they wanted to perpetuate the all Aboriginals are drunks myth.

The way Aboriginal people are treated is a national disgrace and everybody needs to accept responsibility.

And we are all responsible whether it be directly or even if we tune into the radio and TV stations promoting the misinformation.

[GazFish35]

Ive seen journos offering kids $50 to "make something up" about a fight (that didn't happen) at a school near by to a very prominent bully viral video a few years back.

TV journos seem particularly bad at this, I imagine it's a combination of needing footage, needing it quickly, and knowing what they broadcast isn't as easy to analyze and locate in archives as print media.... Print journos seem a little more aware of the power of what they print.