2020 Premier Club SAP

[Alan]

No mention in SAP rules as to how the GK can release the ball so a kick would appear to be ok.All attacking players are required to remain behind the drop-off line when goal kicks are being taken until the team taking the goal kick has taken a touch.Not applicable when goalkeeper receives the ball in general play.Rule 4.4

No mention in SAP rules as to how the GK can release the ball so a kick would appear to be ok.All attacking players are required to remain behind the drop-off line when goal kicks are being taken until the team taking the goal kick has taken a touch.Not applicable when goalkeeper receives the ball in general play.Rule 4.4

I think this rule is there for good reason, and is important. Does anyone else think the whole playing out from the back idea is far too rigid? Sure its great to see when teams have the kids capable of passing the ball to each other, but that is NOT the case across every team. There are EPL and A-League teams who don't play out from the back because their players aren't good enough, but little Johnny who only starting playing last year is expected to do this every week in his U9 game.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with a goalie playing a long ball from the back, hopefully off the floor, as long passing is an important part of the game. I bet most of the weaker teams across SAP concede the vast majority of their goals from failing to play out from the back, so why shouldn't they be able to change it up? Constantly conceding goals and "losing" games means kids lose confidence and don't enjoy the game. Let's teach them that there is more than one way to skin a cat. And lets not be so enslaved to that Dutch technical handbook our ex-pros are increasingly saying has sent our game backwards over the past 10 years.

A

[Alan]

If SAP is about getting kids in front of accredited coaches to develop them, then the club doesn't matter. As it stands, the SAP system is an exclusive cash cow for the lucky few. The shear volume of kids taken in devastates the community teams left behind. The numbers that fold because of SAP intake is way too high. those kids are lost to football, but no one cares.

Im a parent who has played soccer all my life also and I fully agree with this comment. Weve been given the opportunity to whinge and bitch here about whats going on and unfortunately Im one of the Dads whos job has taken him away from being able to coach and help out. I don't understand how the SAP comp cant be graded just like the old A,B,C D divisions we all had as a kid. The clubs with 2 good teams will need to play against one another for now but I feel 1 team should be enforced from U12s then fringe players of Olympic and Magic will dilute to other clubs.
There are 10+ scorelines right across SAP, NPL1, NPL2. (All Youth I talking about) They can all be graded right across all divisions just like they used to be. The youth system isn't aligned with the seniors. They simply share a name and to cover off ground access youth on Saturdays Seniors Sundays or vice versa if there is the odd change for night functions as needed.
Im not saying it would be easy at NNSW but there is software which you put all the info into and it produces a draw. With only a few hiccups which need to be manually fixed up[/QUOTE]

Hi Retired,

I agree 100%. And grading is a lot easier than you think, but you have got to WANT to do it! Clubs would find it hard to sell their SAP if they were in a SAP B comp. Northern know this, and Northern have not capped teams to one per club, so its clear that graded comps are not on the agenda right now.

A

[sapdad]

I bet most of the weaker teams across SAP concede the vast majority of their goals from failing to play out from the back

To me, this sentence is the exact point at which people have morphed the original point of SAP into something completely different (usually encompassing their own ideas and experiences). No one should ever care how many goals a team gives up because they were pressed into an error playing out.ive been watching it for years and along the way ive seen teams persist with it and get really good at it.if we dont practice these core skills then whats the point of the program.over the course of age 9 - 12 players will be able to do it with ease if we as coaches and parents persist with it.im lucky in that our coach is a firm believer in it.they give up goals from mistakes like that, but they now score a lot of goals from full field movement and passing and its awesome to watch.our coach is firmly of the belief that kids entering the age where results matter (13's) he will have bread a much more skillful individual than if hed concentrated on winning games.
whilever his mentality* exists in the program i think it has a chance to produce really talented individuals, who then at 13 can become more tactically aware, physically stronger and hopefully realise their potential.otherwise grading, focusing on winning football when dealing with 9 year old kids to mean sounds really counter productive to what the program was originally designed to do.i believe results and grading is more about the parents desires rather than the best interests of the kids.


*also let me be clear there are quite a few coaches at many clubs with this mentality.the game my son played on the weekend was played exactly this way, it was a fantastic display of football from a bunch of young kids.mistakes were made, one team lost, but everyone walked away wanting every weekend to be played like that because of how good the football was.

[cobra23]

Im a parent who has played soccer all my life also and I fully agree with this comment. Weve been given the opportunity to whinge and bitch here about whats going on and unfortunately Im one of the Dads whos job has taken him away from being able to coach and help out. I don't understand how the SAP comp cant be graded just like the old A,B,C D divisions we all had as a kid. The clubs with 2 good teams will need to play against one another for now but I feel 1 team should be enforced from U12s then fringe players of Olympic and Magic will dilute to other clubs.
There are 10+ scorelines right across SAP, NPL1, NPL2. (All Youth I talking about) They can all be graded right across all divisions just like they used to be. The youth system isn't aligned with the seniors. They simply share a name and to cover off ground access youth on Saturdays Seniors Sundays or vice versa if there is the odd change for night functions as needed.
Im not saying it would be easy at NNSW but there is software which you put all the info into and it produces a draw. With only a few hiccups which need to be manually fixed up

Hi Retired,

I agree 100%. And grading is a lot easier than you think, but you have got to WANT to do it! Clubs would find it hard to sell their SAP if they were in a SAP B comp. Northern know this, and Northern have not capped teams to one per club, so its clear that graded comps are not on the agenda right now.

A[/QUOTE]

How is or will this grading business work when in reality there is no official table or scoreline to justifying grading teams.. until there is points etc to play for this whole grading stuff is pointless..

[Bremsstrahlung]

A few questions for those involved in SAP.

1. What Is the point of this program?
Is it targeted to the elite?
Is it a specific program/style of game available to everyone?

2. What makes it special/preferred? Is it the program itself? The coaching qualifications needed, the exclusivity of the program?

3. I understand the debate about scores vs no scores and focus being in skill development. How do you think keeping score would impact the quality of games? From what I’ve read, some teams ignore the curriculum/spirit a little and aim to score and win, where some seem to be More actively focussed on other aspects. What are the differences in play style of teams that “play to win”.

4. What are the “games” focus? It sounds like a glorified training run. Like are teams aiming to break down teams and score using the skills they have acquired. Or are they more focussed on possession etc and not scoring.

Some general comments.
- Regarding the keeper kicking it long. To be fair the reported comments make sense, encourage the play out from the back, but if teams are gonna press, go long. It’s a legitimate tactic and kids can learn something from it. Commit too many forward, exposed at the back.

[Reds Forever]

We can all come up with ideas and solutions to improve skills in kids. However until NNSW appoint a TD, nothing is happening.

Am surprised that more has not been made of this. We have not had a TD since October 2019 when Zane resigned. Before that, we had gone a long time with no TD and expected Bertos to fill 2 roles.

[Aegon]

We can all come up with ideas and solutions to improve skills in kids. However until NNSW appoint a TD, nothing is happening.

Am surprised that more has not been made of this. We have not had a TD since October 2019 when Zane resigned. Before that, we had gone a long time with no TD and expected Bertos to fill 2 roles.

And as soon as Bertos officially filled 2 roles NNSWF give him his marching orders.��*♂️

[sapdad]

Hi Bremsstrahlung ive put some answers in blue below. please note that this is how we were sold on SAP at the beginning. this has been my experience,obviously others will differ.

A few questions for those involved in SAP.

1. What Is the point of this program? It was aimed at talented/motivated/interested kids who wanted to improve their football from a core skill base.prior to this program the other 'pathways' had seemingly gathered quite a few critics and this seemed to be just an alternative to existing programs
Is it targeted to the elite? yes and no.its for kids that really want to go as far as they can in football.it is about building the next generation of NPL youth, and hopefully Jets youth. it was handed to the clubs to run so they could grab kids from their own miniroos teams and train them all the way through to 12's then hopefully graduate them into their NPL youth programs rather than needing to build teams from scratch at 13. it was in no way ever sold to us as being about being 'better' than kids in other programs, it was about focusing on the core skills rather than emphasising just playing to win by any means
Is it a specific program/style of game available to everyone?coaches can probably better answer but ive often wondered why the core curriculum isnt made available to all coaches at all clubs at all levels as a reference point.why not help out the volunteer mum or dad coaching a kids miniroos team with some simple drills if they want them?

2. What makes it special/preferred? Is it the program itself? The coaching qualifications needed, the exclusivity of the program? for my kid, its a chance to build up skills in a sport that he loves with a group of equally motivated kids.he has a great coach who really understands the program and its helped him in other areas of his life having such a fun environment to be involved in. if he didnt have the coach he has, if it was just a parent who was doing it out of obligation rather than a definite interest in the skills side of it id probably not be paying the money for it.there are a lot of good coaches in the program and they do a really good job

3. I understand the debate about scores vs no scores and focus being in skill development. How do you think keeping score would impact the quality of games? From what I’ve read, some teams ignore the curriculum/spirit a little and aim to score and win, where some seem to be More actively focussed on other aspects. What are the differences in play style of teams that “play to win”. i can see both sides of the argument.id prefer to not care about results and scores.am happy to focus on the long term goal of the program.for sure there are teams out there that care about results over process and i get that.again though by the time all these kids hit 13 they'll probably be pretty close to each other. my only fear is clubs going way too hard to early and burning kids out. at the core of it all we need to remember that these are 9/10/11 year old kids and need to be treated as such. there are no EPL scouts in the stands, there are no instagram models waiting in the sheds.its kids football.there will always be stories of carry on from parents/officials etc, but on the whole its been a 99% positive for my kid since he started

4. What are the “games” focus? It sounds like a glorified training run. Like are teams aiming to break down teams and score using the skills they have acquired. Or are they more focussed on possession etc and not scoring. teams are supposed to use the skills taught in training in the games on weekends.some clubs focus on setting up teams, some have clear tactics, some rotate all their players in positions, some dont.again, theres a variety of theories on the way to play. id say most of the time the better skilled team is pretty noticable on the park.ive seen plenty of games where teams have 'lost' but played the better football am im ok with that

Some general comments.
- Regarding the keeper kicking it long. To be fair the reported comments make sense, encourage the play out from the back, but if teams are gonna press, go long. It’s a legitimate tactic and kids can learn something from it. Commit too many forward, exposed at the back.

hope that sheds some light. again, these are my thoughts from my experience.no doubt there will be others with different stories and probably some who have no involvement in sap keen to throw in their useless 2c.one side of it id no idea on was the impact on clubs who dont have a sap licence and what it does to their kids. (i think) it was Sammydog who has shed some light on problems with that and while i love what the program has done, hearing those stories doesnt bode well for the future for others.ive no idea what the fix is there but hopefully nnsw listen to people like Sammydog and can help those clubs out.

[Bremsstrahlung]

Thanks mate, much appreciated. Not overly familiar with things at that end of the age groups.

To clarify, there’s been comments upon reading that imply that some clubs are focussed on “winning” rather than development. Just wondering, those teams that try to win more opposed to homing skills etc, what does their play style look like?
Do they kick and chase, long balls, give it to their good player to run through. Like what makes them focussed on winning? Is it the language of coaches driving that “feeling” that scoring and winning is important, or their play style.

Just curious.

Is scoring still exciting? Are the kids competing to “win”?

[Alan]

To me, this sentence is the exact point at which people have morphed the original point of SAP into something completely different (usually encompassing their own ideas and experiences). No one should ever care how many goals a team gives up because they were pressed into an error playing out.

Hey sapdad,

The next sentence I wrote was (to me anyway!) the more important point: "Constantly conceding goals and "losing" games means kids lose confidence and don't enjoy the game". Coaches constantly telling kids who aren't quite 'there' with their skills to always play out from the back which causes them to be flogged by double-figures every week doesn't do anyone any good. Kids who have those games every week walk away from the game and don't come back in my experience.

I find the rhetoric of teams only being able to play out from the back short-sighted, and if you listen to ex-pros like Robbie Slater they agree. There is nothing wrong with a long ball from the back. The key is to get the kids comfortable in possession, make sure their passing and touch are sharp, but to also help them understand that the game is played many ways.

If a team can avoid hating playing games by sending it long from the back once in a while I have no problem with it!!

A

[sapdad]

Thanks mate, much appreciated. Not overly familiar with things at that end of the age groups.

To clarify, there’s been comments upon reading that imply that some clubs are focussed on “winning” rather than development. Just wondering, those teams that try to win more opposed to homing skills etc, what does their play style look like?
Do they kick and chase, long balls, give it to their good player to run through. Like what makes them focussed on winning? Is it the language of coaches driving that “feeling” that scoring and winning is important, or their play style.

Just curious.

Is scoring still exciting? Are the kids competing to “win”?

the kids all play to win.they understand the objective of the game is to win.the difficult part is always teaching them how to win by playing football.
as for emphasising winning over playing the best football its been a fine line but there were some obvious incidents.

under 9s saw a lot of long ball (especially when refs didnt call offside very much) and a lot of the best individual snaking through teams to score.perfectly valid options but not what the program was about.games were still quite crowded at this age as spacing wasnt sinking into the kids (understandably).

under 10's saw more emphasis put on shape,space and the beginnings of tactics and structure.from year one to year 2 some clubs created A teams and B teams, some clubs cut players and recruited others who they deemed better.teams were actively poaching kids from other clubs to boost their squads(my son and his mate got asked by a rival coach after a game once).again its a bigger discussion but it can definitely be seen as a tactic to win more games rather than develop individuals.some teams were accused of stacking their teams against certain opponents in order to win.

under 11's has definitely seen an emphasis put on defensive pressing and pressure.its made for some ugly football and ive never understood the reason for having 4 players lined up along the drop off line ready to pounce on the first pass but its a tactic not done in the name of good football.its to create mistakes and score goals.again, it wins games, but long term its pointless.having said that, the teams that have concentrated on their football,as well as using defensive pressure have clearly stood out.but its been the same teams from year 1 to now that have always been the best teams to watch.These kids may have been doing this for 3 years but they are still only 11 year old kids. there is so much more for them to learn and grow.with good coaches (the good teams all have really good coaches) they have a chance to be whatever they want to be in football.but they need time and education.thankfully the best clubs are playing good football.some of the skill levels on these kids is amazing to watch.as long as fanatical parents and overzealous coaches and TD's stay out of the way we might see something special.

whilever my kid keeps getting picked to be in the program and he goes to training and comes home smiling the way he does ill encourage him to stay in it.but im now seeing some kids who look downright miserable out there, and the way they are spoken to by people who should know better is concerning.the biggest problem with the program is the expectations by people who dont understand the point of it all.good kids are going to get burnt out and walk away for reasons other than football and its going to be awful for them.if you are a parent wondering whether to send your kid to trial for the program heres some advice.

1.encourage your kid, if they love football and want to improve themselves then go for it.they might not be a world beater right now but with the right attitude they will benefit.
2. pay very very close attention as to who will be teaching your kid.if its a dad putting his hand up for the sake of it, walk away.your coach needs to be the driver of the program. if he looks like hes just there out of obligation it wont work.also, understand anyone else around the club that will come in contact with your kid.if there is a TD or club official that carries on then walk away.there are a lot of old school attitudes still in football and the amount of people who feel empowered to yell at a 9 year old kid for missing a tackle or missing a sitter is mind boggling.sadly these old school people wont change.there are loads and loads of good people in the program who have the best interests of the kids at heart.find them.
3.be quiet.the 2 questions i hear the most from adults to kids about football is "did you win" and "how many goals did you score". if thats whats important to you, then stay away.the only thing that matters after each training session and each game is if your kid improved and if they enjoyed themselves.if they do those 2 things every training session and every game then they will end up in the exact spot they deserve to be.by all means help out around the club where you can.pump up balls, bring oranges, encourage everyone.but let the coaches coach and the players play.
sorry for the rant everyone.

[sapdad]

Hey sapdad,

The next sentence I wrote was (to me anyway!) the more important point: "Constantly conceding goals and "losing" games means kids lose confidence and don't enjoy the game". Coaches constantly telling kids who aren't quite 'there' with their skills to always play out from the back which causes them to be flogged by double-figures every week doesn't do anyone any good. Kids who have those games every week walk away from the game and don't come back in my experience.

I find the rhetoric of teams only being able to play out from the back short-sighted, and if you listen to ex-pros like Robbie Slater they agree. There is nothing wrong with a long ball from the back. The key is to get the kids comfortable in possession, make sure their passing and touch are sharp, but to also help them understand that the game is played many ways.

If a team can avoid hating playing games by sending it long from the back once in a while I have no problem with it!!

A

Hi Alan yes i agree with your points.im happy for teams to use a long tactic as well especially if the opposition is sitting 4 kids on the drop off line.the bigger point you make is being comfortable in possession which is the main goal.as far as losing games and walking away,again i can understand the point.hopefully we as parents and coaches can emphasise the good out of any situation and keep them encouraged.it does work the other way though.i saw a team of little kids crying after a loss one day but one of the dads told mean it was only the 2nd game theyd lost all year.sometimes winning all the time can create just as big a problem down the line if not managed well.

[Alan]

sorry for the rant everyone.

Not at all sapdad! You make great points!

A

[Retired01]

I do think it comes back to the coaching and the traits the coach push onto the kids and I reckon its there to be seen at times. I may be speaking out of turn here but others seem to and here I go on the U11s
Broadmeadows 2 teams play with the idea of structure using new skills.
Olympic 1 of theirs teams focus on strategy and skills. 1 doesn't and just use the strong kids to stay on top
Lambton have gone away from structural skills and I guess that's because the new boys need to be bought up to SAP level
New Lambton their A team always plays based on skills and strategy and their B team lacked the depth to fully do it
Valentine have no focus on the curriculum and their A team has the skills but its not a priority
Edgeworth Ive heard change their teams each week so no wonder kids cant grasp teamwork

[Alan]

I do think it comes back to the coaching and the traits the coach push onto the kids and I reckon its there to be seen at times. I may be speaking out of turn here but others seem to and here I go on the U11s
Broadmeadows 2 teams play with the idea of structure using new skills.
Olympic 1 of theirs teams focus on strategy and skills. 1 doesn't and just use the strong kids to stay on top
Lambton have gone away from structural skills and I guess that's because the new boys need to be bought up to SAP level
New Lambton their A team always plays based on skills and strategy and their B team lacked the depth to fully do it
Valentine have no focus on the curriculum and their A team has the skills but its not a priority
Edgeworth Ive heard change their teams each week so no wonder kids cant grasp teamwork

My son's team have not played all the teams you've mentioned this year but obviously did so last year. Your points definitely resonate to a large degree.

I am interested in the line about Jaffas. I understood that they went down to only one team so did not have a need for any new players. Are you saying they got rid of a team, and still had to bring in players?

A

[Aegon]

My son's team have not played all the teams you've mentioned this year but obviously did so last year. Your points definitely resonate to a large degree.

I am interested in the line about Jaffas. I understood that they went down to only one team so did not have a need for any new players. Are you saying they got rid of a team, and still had to bring in players?

A

1 kid at Jaffa’s stayed in the 10’s for a second year as he was playing an age up. I don’t know the details of how many were let go or how many were bought in for this years squad of 13.

[Retired01]

This is how you get caught up in opinions. I believe they bought a few boys from Community Clubs and Cook Hill a nd Merewether rings a bell upon advice of the new TD

[Aegon]

This is how you get caught up in opinions. I believe they bought a few boys from Community Clubs and Cook Hill a nd Merewether rings a bell upon advice of the new TD

I just had a look back through the comms from last year.

This years Jaffas 11's were selected before the 10's & 9's were. My son got his confirmation of selection on 19/8/19.

Jaffa's head of football was not appointed until 13/9/19. The details within the communication state that it was the coaches in conjunction with the club TD at the time who made the selections which was all prior to this appointment.

Speaking of which - This season has just started and going by last years timelines squad assessment and selections for 2021 are already due to start ramping up over the next month or 2.

[samcan]

I do think it comes back to the coaching and the traits the coach push onto the kids and I reckon its there to be seen at times. I may be speaking out of turn here but others seem to and here I go on the U11s
Broadmeadows 2 teams play with the idea of structure using new skills.
Olympic 1 of theirs teams focus on strategy and skills. 1 doesn't and just use the strong kids to stay on top
Lambton have gone away from structural skills and I guess that's because the new boys need to be bought up to SAP level
New Lambton their A team always plays based on skills and strategy and their B team lacked the depth to fully do it
Valentine have no focus on the curriculum and their A team has the skills but its not a priority
Edgeworth Ive heard change their teams each week so no wonder kids cant grasp teamwork

Thats quite a disappointing generalist speech for the coaches for those teams you have knocked.
Those "other" coaches maybe trying implementing similar tactics as the stronger team but kids having different abilities or strengths go about their game differently or arent able to deliver the same quality. Use your strengths and develop all the others as soon as possible. Too many people whining about having strong or quick players. Theyll be able to tica soon enough.

[Retired01]

Thats quite a disappointing generalist speech for the coaches for those teams you have knocked.
Those "other" coaches maybe trying implementing similar tactics as the stronger team but kids having different abilities or strengths go about their game differently or arent able to deliver the same quality. Use your strengths and develop all the others as soon as possible. Too many people whining about having strong or quick players. Theyll be able to tica soon enough.

I told everyone when I wrote my first comment that it was a generalized comment from observations and it did gain support. these team play everyweek at the same times and before and after and we have watched everyone over and over again for the past 2 seasons. I by no means condemn or support what coaches do and you need varying techniques to compete with different teams. As I said this is an observation from seeing the same kids and teams for a while where its my opinion and that only