2020 Premier Club SAP

[Alan]

I guess my point is that community coaches can be and SOME are just as good as the SAP coaches up until 12. So the development "can" be as good.

Hi Negative Police (great name by the way!)

I tried to gauge the level of certification that is expected at SAP clubs on this forum some time ago. At our club we only ask that coaches have the Skill Training certificate which is what most community clubs would hope for with U9-U12 as well.

What sometimes gets lost is: 'Skills Acquisition' is a Phase, not a program, and that 'SAP' can and is coached at community level as well. 'SAP' has somehow become the buzz word for 'elite' in this region but the FFA core skills are the fundamentals whether you are at a NPL club or are coaching Shortland U9s.

If clubs running SAP expect their coaches to get C licenses for SAP and then B for youth then that is a big undertaking for those coaches. The players in those clubs would benefit hugely but I don't think many blokes coaching SAP would have the time to walk that path.

I would love to hear from the coaches on here as to what badges they have and what they and their club aspire to have. For discussion!

A

[Aegon]

Hi Negative Police (great name by the way!)

I tried to gauge the level of certification that is expected at SAP clubs on this forum some time ago. At our club we only ask that coaches have the Skill Training certificate which is what most community clubs would hope for with U9-U12 as well.

What sometimes gets lost is: 'Skills Acquisition' is a Phase, not a program, and that 'SAP' can and is coached at community level as well. 'SAP' has somehow become the buzz word for 'elite' in this region but the FFA core skills are the fundamentals whether you are at a NPL club or are coaching Shortland U9s.

If clubs running SAP expect their coaches to get C licenses for SAP and then B for youth then that is a big undertaking for those coaches. The players in those clubs would benefit hugely but I don't think many blokes coaching SAP would have the time to walk that path.

I would love to hear from the coaches on here as to what badges they have and what they and their club aspire to have. For discussion!

A

I'm not 100% positive but I seem to recall some of the NPL clubs in the past asking for C licenses, or progressing towards C licenses, for their SAP coaches.

[Aegon]

I was forwarded this by a parent from another club - It hasn't been communicated internally at Jaffa's:
74-2020-2021.pdf

It's Memo 75 from NNSWF with some key information about their intentions for SAP in 2021:
Key points:

1. 11's and 12's will be playing 9v9 on a half field (65m x 55m)
2. clubs are asked to enter results for all SAP matches on the Sports TG results
   entry page, in the same manner as typical NPL/NL1/WPL youth fixtures. These results will not be
   published by NNSWF and should not be published by clubs.
3. The season will be split into 3 phases
4. Phase 1 - Premier 5s Competition – This will be held over a 2-3 weeks at Football Fives at Lake
   Macquarie Regional Football Facility, and will aim to give a number matches against teams of an
   equivalent level, as well as testing against teams from a high or lower level.
5. Phase 2 – Regular Season Part 1 – This will be 8-10 weeks of matches against teams of an
   appropriate level based on end of 2020 performance and performance in Premier 5s Competition.
6. Phase 3 - Regular Season Part 2 – This will be another 8-10-week period against teams of an
   appropriate level based on end of 2020 performance and performance in Premier 5s Competition,
   and phase 1 of the competition.
7. Girls will continue be permitted to play in either boys or girls’ teams in premier 9s-12s, and will be
   permitted to play one year below their required age level if playing in boys competitions, with the
   exception of 12 year old girls (born 2009)* who will have the option of playing in WPL 13s as well as
   Premier 12s Girls, Premier 12s Boys and NPL 13s.

My personal opinion:

• Grading teams based on 2020 performance is a positive step.
• Grading 7v7 or 9v9 teams based on Phase 1's 5's competition results is ridiculous.
• How do teams of 12-14 kids even play 5 a side and make it worth their time?
• Phase 2 & 3 combined being 16-20 games is nowhere near enough game time.

[sapdad]

What sometimes gets lost is: 'Skills Acquisition' is a Phase, not a program, and that 'SAP' can and is coached at community level as well. 'SAP' has somehow become the buzz word for 'elite' in this region but the FFA core skills are the fundamentals whether you are at a NPL club or are coaching Shortland U9s.

exactly. i cringe when people refer to it as some sort of elite production line of superstar players.theres no doubt that the majority of NPL youth 13 and will come from SAP players, but there will be many many kids come from community straight into NPL youth because they are good enough.i can guarantee also that no club will refuse to pick a player who is good enough just because they werent in SAP.my kid has enjoyed SAP and its been good for him.hes also had teammates come in and out of the program and go in different directions and ive no doubt if they are still keen by 13's they will have just as much chance of an NPL spot as my kid.

[sapdad]

My personal opinion:
[LIST][*]Grading teams based on 2020 performance is a positive step.

which i guess is fine for those teams staying the same.quite a few teams going to be very different in 2021 and not all for the better.

[Aegon]

which i guess is fine for those teams staying the same.quite a few teams going to be very different in 2021 and not all for the better.

Which I think is the point of splitting phase 2 & 3 to correct for these types of adjustments.

[sapdad]

Which I think is the point of splitting phase 2 & 3 to correct for these types of adjustments.

if the point of grading is to not have teams get flogged the bottom teams in each grade will get flogged for 66% of the season so why not let them cop it all year long?also, if results now 'matter' why are we having some sort of 'B' grade when winning those games wont mean anything if they cant get close to any of the teams in 'A' grade?
every year NNSW has less and less input into the program and its very quickly going from al alternative way to teach kids into NPL 10/11 and 12's.i was a big believer in the early days of it but now its quickly drifting back into the same way we've always done it.so expect the same outcomes.

[KITZ]

exactly. i cringe when people refer to it as some sort of elite production line of superstar players.theres no doubt that the majority of NPL youth 13 and will come from SAP players, but there will be many many kids come from community straight into NPL youth because they are good enough.i can guarantee also that no club will refuse to pick a player who is good enough just because they werent in SAP.my kid has enjoyed SAP and its been good for him.hes also had teammates come in and out of the program and go in different directions and ive no doubt if they are still keen by 13's they will have just as much chance of an NPL spot as my kid.

SAP is supposed to be part of the talent pathway if you bother to look at the NNSW development program. SAP in its current form however has been so diluted, that’s why people now struggle to see where it fits for development. I would say they have now made the TSP program what the old SAP was in regards to the elite pathway you are referring to.

Most of the community kids that have made it into 13s NPL are now finding they have been released for 14s from their current clubs when actually coming up against the kids that have been in the old SAP program for a season, it’s a pretty big wake up call for many of them. A lot of the parents seem to struggle with what the NPL commitment looks like when they haven’t been in a background of 2-3 nights training at the level required and some of the kids struggle to bring the discipline and commitment required.

[sapdad]

Most of the community kids that have made it into 13s NPL are now finding they have been released for 14s from their current clubs when actually coming up against the kids that have been in the old SAP program for a season, it’s a pretty big wake up call for many of them. A lot of the parents seem to struggle with what the NPL commitment looks like when they haven’t been in a background of 2-3 nights training at the level required and some of the kids struggle to bring the discipline and commitment required.

for sure this is a very valid point.making it and maintaining it are 2 very different concepts and SAP has definitely prepared the kids better for it.its been interesting to listen to a lot of old heads in and around the program talk about them not having anywhere near this level of coaching at the same ages.dont get me wrong, i am a big fan of SAP and hope it has the desired results, i just get the impression we are veering away from the original intention of the program.

[Bremsstrahlung]

I’ve asked many times in here what the purpose of this program is, because there’s so many mixed messages going on.

I perceive SAP to be an “elite” program because:
1. Only certain clubs are allowed to have teams.
2. NPL teams have SAP teams but not community teams
3. SAP advertise for coaches
4. There are trials
5. Not everyone can be picked to play SAP


I have no problem with any of it, or have any involvement in it, just an onlooker trying to keep in touch with what’s going on at junior levels.

[Negative Police]

I’ve asked many times in here what the purpose of this program is, because there’s so many mixed messages going on.

I perceive SAP to be an “elite” program because:
1. Only certain clubs are allowed to have teams.
2. NPL teams have SAP teams but not community teams
3. SAP advertise for coaches
4. There are trials
5. Not everyone can be picked to play SAP

I have no problem with any of it, or have any involvement in it, just an onlooker trying to keep in touch with what’s going on at junior levels.

Its good or the best we have atm but not elite.

It's too diluted with so many players a huge difference in ability to be elite. The Old SAP was closer to elite but Jets is what elite is supposed to be. Nearly anyone can eventually find a SAP club and then get flogged.

The first 2 yrs of Premier club SAP was good 2 x 40 min games a week. Now its just pathetic for the $$$.

The coaching and advice from TDs is quite good but nothing better than I was coaching at community. Id have 3 training sessions p/w for the preseason than 2 for rest of year in community u11s. A tiny bit of video analysis and drills from academies around the world. Kids loved it. Some went on big others still not.

[Negative Police]

I would say they have now made the TSP program what the old SAP was in regards to the elite pathway you are referring to.
.

TSP may not be on at all next year. Are there any elite coaches employed at Speers Point? And unless there are trials its a joke. Asking TDs for some kids is dodgy.

The NNSW coaches should watch the serious contenders play amongst each other.

[Aegon]

Its good or the best we have atm but not elite.

It's too diluted with so many players a huge difference in ability to be elite. The Old SAP was closer to elite but Jets is what elite is supposed to be. Nearly anyone can eventually find a SAP club and then get flogged.

The first 2 yrs of Premier club SAP was good 2 x 40 min games a week. Now its just pathetic for the $$$.

The coaching and advice from TDs is quite good but nothing better than I was coaching at community. Id have 3 training sessions p/w for the preseason than 2 for rest of year in community u11s. A tiny bit of video analysis and drills from academies around the world. Kids loved it. Some went on big others still not.

I think you’re overestimating community coaching based on your own experience.
I know parents with kids at Association Sap 12’s and club development squads that aren’t getting that level of training & Guidance.

[Negative Police]

I think you’re overestimating community coaching based on your own experience.
I know parents with kids at Association Sap 12’s and club development squads that aren’t getting that level of training & Guidance.

Yeah, ive seen coaches where they ask the kids what did they do last year and copy it. But there are quite a few who take it seriously.

Are they U12 players from the old SAP regime at SpeersPoint? disappointing if so

[Alan]

I think you’re overestimating community coaching based on your own experience.
I know parents with kids at Association Sap 12’s and club development squads that aren’t getting that level of training & Guidance.

Hi Aegon,

I don't think it is as simple as that. In my experience, unless a coach has personal ambitions to progress in the game, good coaches will often follow their children's path. If a child stays in community, most times so does the coach.

Of course, most coaches will want their child to be exposed to a supposed "higher" standard, but certainly not all. I could point you in the direction of many, many excellent coaches in Newy who have stayed in community football for the love of the game and their community club.

I don't want to upset any coaches on here, but I would also argue that badges and tickets don't make you a good coach - knowing the game, wanting to get better and knowing how to manage lots of personalities is far more important that the certificate you have, or the club where you coach.

A

[Alan]

I was forwarded this by a parent from another club - It hasn't been communicated internally at Jaffa's:
74-2020-2021.pdf

It's Memo 75 from NNSWF with some key information about their intentions for SAP in 2021:
Key points:

1. 11's and 12's will be playing 9v9 on a half field (65m x 55m)
2. clubs are asked to enter results for all SAP matches on the Sports TG results
   entry page, in the same manner as typical NPL/NL1/WPL youth fixtures. These results will not be
   published by NNSWF and should not be published by clubs.
3. The season will be split into 3 phases
4. Phase 1 - Premier 5s Competition – This will be held over a 2-3 weeks at Football Fives at Lake
   Macquarie Regional Football Facility, and will aim to give a number matches against teams of an
   equivalent level, as well as testing against teams from a high or lower level.
5. Phase 2 – Regular Season Part 1 – This will be 8-10 weeks of matches against teams of an
   appropriate level based on end of 2020 performance and performance in Premier 5s Competition.
6. Phase 3 - Regular Season Part 2 – This will be another 8-10-week period against teams of an
   appropriate level based on end of 2020 performance and performance in Premier 5s Competition,
   and phase 1 of the competition.
7. Girls will continue be permitted to play in either boys or girls’ teams in premier 9s-12s, and will be
   permitted to play one year below their required age level if playing in boys competitions, with the
   exception of 12 year old girls (born 2009)* who will have the option of playing in WPL 13s as well as
   Premier 12s Girls, Premier 12s Boys and NPL 13s.

My personal opinion:

• Grading teams based on 2020 performance is a positive step.
• Grading 7v7 or 9v9 teams based on Phase 1's 5's competition results is ridiculous.
• How do teams of 12-14 kids even play 5 a side and make it worth their time?
• Phase 2 & 3 combined being 16-20 games is nowhere near enough game time.

Yes this provoked A LOT of chat at our club. Our view was the same as yours wrt the Football Fives. We are more comfortable with the Phase 2 and Phase 3 as it will result in a similar amount of games to this season which has worked well for us as we are not a big club.

Our club will probably fit in the lower-middle range of teams, and if we are placed a lower graded bracket we see this as a motivation. Like a promotion/relegation opportunity - very topical with the current chat around the A League 2nd division!

A

[KITZ]

TSP may not be on at all next year. Are there any elite coaches employed at Speers Point? And unless there are trials its a joke. Asking TDs for some kids is dodgy.

The NNSW coaches should watch the serious contenders play amongst each other.

I believe its done through a joint meeting of the technical directors at the clubs and at northern. But the process I think should be better publicised to stop the misconceptions about how kids are picked, most parents either don't know, wont ask questions, or their club doesn't communicate very well about it.

Maybe for the younger ones, it might be a stretch, but if there's still a State comp for SAP, its a really good opportunity to play for points and get experience in front of crowds.

For the older boys, it feeds into nationals which helps for national selection into the joeys etc, so it's definitely something that needs to be maintained as an opportunity for our local kids, we don't need more kids from the cities represented and we miss out!

[Alan]

I believe its done through a joint meeting of the technical directors at the clubs and at northern. But the process I think should be better publicised to stop the misconceptions about how kids are picked, most parents either don't know, wont ask questions, or their club doesn't communicate very well about it.

Hi Kitz,

Our club has never had a player represented in any of these programs and I think i am right to say our TD has not been involved in discussions around who is selected or not.

Players tend to come from 3-4 of the same clubs so maybe conversations between them and Northern are more intimate so to speak!!

100% agree on better communications and more opportunities for kids from this region. We've been left behind in recent years and unfortunately I think the gap between us and Sydney is widening every year.

A

[Aegon]

Yes this provoked A LOT of chat at our club. Our view was the same as yours wrt the Football Fives. We are more comfortable with the Phase 2 and Phase 3 as it will result in a similar amount of games to this season which has worked well for us as we are not a big club.

Our club will probably fit in the lower-middle range of teams, and if we are placed a lower graded bracket we see this as a motivation. Like a promotion/relegation opportunity - very topical with the current chat around the A League 2nd division!

A

Yes the football 5's thing will ruffle a lot of feathers.
Some will love it, some will hate it.

My concern is that I don't think it is being done for altruistic reasons. The SAP fast 5's have generated next to no interest from the clubs in the past 2 years.
Does someone at NNSWF have a KPI they need to meet for SAP utilisation? Probably ties into how they justify charging the fees that they do for SAP participants.

In the 11's and 12's its pointless.
11-14 player squads can't play 5 on the pitch with 6-9 subs. It won't give you any accurate representation of how those teams or individuals will perform in a 9v9 game.

[Alan]

I was really pleased to see Kahibah having another crack at SAP next year. They are a great club and I was sorry their first go at the start didn’t come off.

Great people down there. I look forward to seeing them make it work.

A