Top post Brem. It's the exact reason I gave up, you just get sick of it after a while.
Despite the quality of referees we get, it'd be an even bigger shit fight without them.
Top post Brem. It's the exact reason I gave up, you just get sick of it after a while.
Despite the quality of referees we get, it'd be an even bigger shit fight without them.
Fantastic post. Well saidOriginally Posted by Bremsstrahlung
Good initiative yesterday by Azzuri, each youth side nominated two players from each team to have " Game day experience " , where the kids got to meet the players, sit in on half time chat, watch the warm ups and integrate with the players and got fed by the club on the day. im sure the kids loved it......
Plus a win in all three grades, it was a great day for Azzuri.......
Couldn't have put it better myself Brem.Congratulations.
Have watch several games this weekend where the main aim of the players is to put one over on the referee.Watched the best milker of free kicks at Wallsend and other games where the players did everything they could to come out on top.People need to realise that the referees do not create the fouls-players do that-going out of their way to stretch or break the rules at every opportunity-comes back to the coaching in the end.
Hey I understand referees are only human.
I understand they make mistakes
I understand they not perfect
The standards are dropping in the NPL
The standards are dropping in the HAL
To me there is a big issue here.
As for the comments about the difficult job refs have then maybe they need to grow a pair and harden up a little
They have a job to do where they ain't going to be popular.
Accept the criticism is going to come their way and stop being so insecure
Yeah the players put shit over on the referees. But the referees allow the players go take liberties with tremendous amounts of leniency when it comes to dealing with abuse swearing and questioning decisions.
They are allowed and are instructed to issue yellow and red cards for dissent abuse etc
They don't do it often enough
The problem lies with the refs not actually operating on a zero tolerance for abuse by players and officials.
Until they fix this they will have a lot of problems.
If the refs are so concerned about the plebs sitting in the wrong side of the fence being critical or booing a decision then they really need to assess their career choice as ref.
A bit of banter from the crowd should not be an issue.
Obviously different when threats violence intimidating behaviour occur.
But far too many refs get upset about some one saying the bloke with this whistle is blind and incompetent
Harden up princesses please
Good to see that the Blues got on the bandwagon with this initiative.
Sounds like you need to put your money where your mouth is....
You can't play so you may as well ref. The Thai princess can't be that time consuming...
Why do you think the standards are dropping? What decisions/performances that you've seen indicate this? Just out of genuine curiosity.
The climate is very very different to how it used to. (This is largely helped my the theatrics on TV). Players going well out of their way to trick the referee, this obviously makes things a bit more difficult, and sometimes, they are going to successfully trick the referee.
Why do you believe the referees are poor? Lack of training? Lack of experience? Lack of support? Lack of knowledge?
Again, if you have 14 players turn up for trials, your arm is twisted and you pick those 14. If 40 turn up, you can pick the best players for various positions and who works well together, and 99.9% of the time, you'll end up with a better team.
Apply the same logic to referees. The intake isn't the issue. Year after year, 20+ (granted I'm a little out of touch as i've been away for a few years now) in Macquarie and I imagine similar, if not more in Newcastle sign up to become referees. This gives you at the very least 30 new referees each year. The problem is retention. As i said, over the years, many decide refereeing is not for them. Fair enough, maybe they couldn't "harden up" or they were too "insecure" as you say. Then, by the time the referees are suitably experienced to attempt the demanding nature of NPL, there aren't that many left. So instead of getting to pick the best 5 referees from a pool of 50+ referees. You get to pick the best 5 out of 10. So to a degree, you get what you are given, and you can only do so much with what you are given. This then carries on and progresses, and the "best/willing" NPL referees are given a crack at A-League, once they do their certificates and assessments. Are you seeing where this is going?
The issue, as you say, is indeed not having enough referees of high standard. The issue is whats happening to drive these people away.
Do you have the same attitude towards Police? Or ambulance officers? Or nurses? Or the 15yo flipping burgers at Maccas? Is it their job to get criticised, constantly questioned, taken advantage of etc.
How is it their fault? The issue is not the victim, it is the perpetrator.
There is a definite difference between banter, and the shit the refs cop. Don;t get me wrong, there can be a good level of banter between the referees and players, sometimes this helps diffuse situations. But i think most will agree, it generally exceeds this and goes down a verbal abuse and sometimes physical assault path.
I agree, it takes a different kind of person to be a referee, not everyone can do it, not everyone is willing to do it. So, why are we not doing everything we can do to keep these people in the game.
Yes, the referee can dish out cards and send people off. But can you imagine the uproar and the outcry if they did this? There's already many complaints on here for the referees "trying to be the centre of attention" issuing cards and blowing free kicks, can't have it both ways.
I can back up Brem's post. I'm a referee and we have regular training and coaching sessions. Most NPL and NEWFM, and even the junior NPL and even zone league referees from my experience are assessed a few times a month and the feedback I've found is generally quite good.
As for showing cards for dissent and abuse, I can tell you right now, no NPL or NEWFM match would finish, each and every game would be abandon due to one team not having enough players.
As for criticism of decisions, how many of them actually know the rule for handball or offside? Or what the 10 types of fouls that result in direct free kicks, or what the definition of BUPA is vs DOGSO? Criticism is okay, when it's informed, but even then the rules state in the referee's opinion (and not the pleb's).
Middleby Gone
Lawrie Out
From the games that i have seen the refs have been doing ok. hearing alot of stories out of the NPL Youth that lots of red cards are getting dished out for fighting on the field. When the teams don't have respect for one and other it makes the job very difficult, in boxing there is usually one referee to manage two fighters... when there is 22 ready to go its definitely tough for whats often "the kid" in the middle.
Contrast that with reports from the Magic vs Weston (first grade) game where there should have been 4 red cards to both teams. But Weston rode their luck and received 2 reds dubious or not last week... the universe is in balance.
maybe northern should have a round with no refs . teams can ref themselves . i'd pay to see that .
Give Dana White a buzz... UFC 201
If the match don't finish because of dissent reds then the problem lies with the clubs and players.
If the ref is consistently dealing with dissent everytime then we not have an issue if cards are flying left right and centre.
The players have the responsibility to adapt and shut up
The problem lies with the excessive levels of tolerance and inconsistent policing of it from referees in general
If there was a legitimate Zero Tolerance approach then the problem is quickly eradicated.
Problem is we get a blitz on something for a week or two and then everyone back to their ways straight away and the refs let shit slide
I would suggest half of the issues are down too the insecurity driven into people by the leftists dogs out there with the everyone wins a prize you are never wrong ,you are special,you are immune from criticism which leaves us with a society of weak people who can not handle a thing that isn't how they want it to be.
Look at the current generations what actually makes you think they are suited to refereeing??
It a thankless job at the best of times. The way people under the age of 35 have been brought up they are encouraged to quit at everything, they are encouraged that they are special even if they are not, they are encouraged that they are entitled to everything
They are basically developed into weak people not suitable for refereeing a game with other sociopathic people critiquing everything they do
I don't understand what the point or relevance of that was?
Yeh, that's the way society and generations are these days, to a degree. But even so, is it not just natural to want to feel appreciated? I daresay, if your boss/employees/ladyfriend/mates constantly berated you and never gave you any positivity, how would you feel about those relationships?
The problem isn't so much handling criticism, it is the lack of respect, the lack of appreciation and constant abuse. Criticism can be a wonderful thing and help improve something. What players are saying to referees, what coaches are saying, what "pleb" spectators are saying is not criticism, it's not constructive at all and often ends in personal attacks.
These people are trying their best, they are giving up their time (yes, they are paid, very badly) so other people can enjoy sport and they are not treated in a manner that makes them want to continue this.
I'm curious though, what have you seen that indicates the quality of refereeing has declined?
What can they do to improve?
You have obviously never worked in customer service, I find that you get the sort of dickheads and bitches that go over the top at refs at their kids game are the same ****tards that have a go at the 15yo kid behind the Maccas counter because they gave them a cup of Diet Coke instead of Coke Zero. And then bitch about it for the next 30 minutes.
It's why Northern are cracking down on clubs when it happens, though I think better training and support are needed as well as better behaviour from players and club officials.I guess, I'm saying that the problem stems from not enough referees, why aren't there enough? It is not a well paid job for the conditions you work in. Next time you're at a game, have a listen to how many people tell out at the referee. If that were you at your workplace, how'd you feel about that.
If the assessors are even there, I see the same refs making the same mistakes but there are never any assessors around. The associations need to step up rather than let them at it. While they get further training and ref sessions it is different when out on the field. Northern relying on club feedback with their assessment forms from coaches I doubt do much unless they praise them, wouldn't be surprised that any negative feedback on a form ends up in a bin.
Last edited by Goatscheese; 02-05-2016 at 09:28 PM.
Brem, all your posts are spot on, and it must be a tough gig. I do enjoy being a neutral at NPL games because it doesn't matter how the ref performs.
The one thing I agree with the member on is cracking down on dissent, and I'd extend that into the bullshit you see with kicking the ball away, and standing in front of a free kick until the ref tells you to move. You're right - the ref is usually the first criticised when too many cards are given out rather than 'letting the game flow', but that's because at the moment it would look out of place. If they all cracked down on it together, and it became the standard week-in week-out, it would improve.
The best example I can think of is AFL. Granted, I haven't watched for a couple of years, but they've always been super-strict on giving a ball straight to a player who wins a free kick. Any sort of hesitation by the player, or any attempt to slow the play down, and a 50m penalty is given. The refs don't hesitate. And it seems to have become embedded in the game where players don't even think twice about trying to slow down the other team, or kick the ball away etc.
Brem - out of curiosity, do refs get directives on what to focus on in different leagues (specifically the higher ones), or is it a case that once they receive initial training, they're basically left to fend for themselves.
Uhm, tbh, I haven't had any official involvement for a few years now due to relocation. But it's not a case of fending for yourselves.
I can probably vouch more for the Junior Branches, I know they try to crack down on a few things each year and brief the refs at the beginning of the year (You must attend a briefing before you can referee for the season). Though, a lot of it is logistical things like "Showing your ID badge if you are on the bench" or making sure shin pads are effective etc.
State League Branches do similar and do pick things to focus on.
I know somebody said in the NPL Youth thread that there are plans to have added sanctions in place if players are constantly guilty of dissent.
IMO, i agree that it should be given a bit more focus. I mean, there's a correct way and a wrong way to go about questioning a decision. If done respectfully, the player voices his opinion, the referee offers an explanation, player accepts that the decision is made and they both move on. That's rarely what happens.
I'm not subscribing to the fact that it's their fault though. You cannot attribute blame to the victim.
See that is where I think you viewing this wrong
Where in the rule book does it say a player is entitled to question a decision or get an explanation on a decision??
I not see it in the Rule Book
See that where you go wrong. It ain't your place as a ref to appease players with an explanation. Apply the rules of the game and stop overstepping your mark
As soon as you feel it is alright to allow players the right to question the refs decision get an explanation then you are on the path to dissent Issues as they argue the toss with you
That is an issue the referees can control. But they choose not to.
Just as they choose to allow dissent and are not consistently enforcing it from game to game and ref to ref and even show massive inconsistencies in the same match
I am suggesting the referees go into this line of work without the social skills and stomach for the job.
Basically far too many of them are ridiculously naive about the realities of the issues they will face
They are also ridiculously overrating their personal skills and backbone that they have for doing the job.
Reality is it is a **** if a job and you are going to be the **** everyone dislikes most weeks
It is a rare event when you actually get away from a game and you have escaped any attention.
Also if being appreciated is what you want you are in the wrong line of work.
There are many lines of work out there that are thankless tasks. This is one of them. Don't expect a circle jerk a Pat on the back and the players linking hands and singing For he's a Jolly good Fella at FT as it ain't happening.
Far too many refs fail to acknowledge the realities of their job and cause their own downfall
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