The Politics/Religion/Conspiracies Deathmatch Thread

[Macca]

I think I got the gist of it. The government can "print money" and spend it however it pleases, but in doing so increases the amount in circulation which would .. I want to say devalue it but you've said it will decrease interest rates - I suppose they are related. To counter this it pulls money back out of the NG sector by trading bonds for currency, in order to keep interest rates at a desirable level.

Isn't this a temporary measure though? That money will go back into the economy once the bond is completed, leaving us back at square one but a few years down the track. Is the "out" here the money sink of tax which simply removes money from the economy completely, as you said?

Secondly, I think I need a bit more info on the environmental limiting factors; because as it reads now, it makes no sense to me why there are even debated budgets and concerns about how to fun infrastructure projects, if the government can afford anything it wants by just issuing more money. Obviously I'm likely taking the simplified explanation too far, when it seems that they have the means to create money and the tool (bonds) to control the backlash of excess.

[The Dunster]

I'll call your paragraphs 1, 2, and 3.

1. Government spending usually involves a debit and an offsetting credit entry onto a computer screen. The idea that a government prints money to spend is another undergraduate text book myth. Sure the RBA via a contractor print money but it's more to do with replacement, and in this day and age is a very small part of the Money supply. The government can increase the money base or spend without the need to print any new currency / notes. The value of money is very closely linked to movements in commodity prices and not so much with interest rates. Sure interest rates have some bearing - but commodity prices tend to be the main influence.

2. Yes it is temporary - but the RBA will always actively meet it's target interest rate and as such they will increase or decrease liquidity within the ESA's by selling or buying interest bearing alternatives to money [bonds]. So the transactions between the RBA and member banks are continuous. In a fully employed economy [people and resources] inflationary pressures would be of a major concern but capital markets are so efficient these days it's not really an issue. Take Japan for example they have been running deficits for over 20 years at many times what the US and Australia have as a percentage of GDP - yet inflation is low and interest rates are near enough to zero.

3. Why do people debate the Bible or the Quaran - theres nothing empirical at least to even debate - government spending and the ideological perspectives behind it is much the same - a matter of faith, rather than something based on hard evidence ?
The limiting factors are the goods and services available to buy in Australian dollars, the stock and supply resources, the effects of depleting non-renewables to future generations, and the impact upon the biosphere of how we use these resources.... and so on. It's not about what can we afford it's about what is available to purchase.

The reason government make such a big deal about what they can afford to spend is because the Banks and Bond traders essentially own them. Banks want governments to be in surplus so that households can be in deficit. Because when households are in deficit they need to obtain credit / loans. The more in loans a bank holds the better off they are... and so on. Banks are also interested in low interest rates as well because if the interest rate is lower than the return / dividends on their shares then people will tend to purchase banking shares rather than make deposits. Share price goes up and so on.....

Bond traders like low interest rates as well because as the interest rate falls the value of a bond increases.

If you look at households these days you can note that a good share of their income is going to the banking industry in one form or another. Prior to 1971 working at a bank was a pretty piss weak job because the pay was poor and the job itself was boring. Once deregulation hit, banks and finance companies started developing all sorts of instruments and lobbying governments. Before anyone realized what was happening they had taken over - pretty much all government policy now is targeted at improving the balance sheets of Finance and banking companies.

From changes to Super Annuation rules with respect to properties which increased house prices - which essentially forced people to borrow more money and gave the banks / finance companies a larger slice of the pie. To compulsory superannuation.... to private health insurance rebates.....to privatising public utilities... and so on... to massive government bailouts when household incomes were reduced to the point whereby they could no longer provide enough blood for the parasitic financial types to feed on.

Fiscal policy used to be about closing the gap between actual and potential GDP to maintain full employment, taxes were used to maintain price stability.. and so on.

If you haven't already seen it watch the Movie "The Big Short" it's not 100% accurate but for a movie it gives a very good summary of how the Finance sector dictate government ideology and the consequences.

[Macca]

1. Yeah I meant printing money metaphorically as you said, thus the ""

2. Yep I came to that conclusion as well that they could achieve a nominal interest rate at any point with those transactions. I wasn't as clear on what happens down the line after multiple instances of government spending where they increase the money base. Is there a money sink that will decrease the money base? Or is the fully employed economy you mention the key, as without this an increased money base can simply be spread wider [across more people] to "soak it up" as such.

3. Fair enough, I didn't realise you meant environmental in a literal sense.

If that's the case its a pretty ****ed up situation, besides the small scale of screwing over the little guy, presumably forcing government surplus also hurts the economic growth of the country as well. Anything for a buck though I spose. Aren't they going to have plenty of market regardless of government surplus or deficit? Our deficit is at least purported at being at troublesome levels at the moment (doubtful), but I would guess that household debt would be at pretty high levels historically. Where's the missing link there, the 1% of private sector in huge surplus?

Thanks for your responses, loving the thought provoking reading. I will give that movie a watch

[The Dunster]

The top 0.1% are the ones with a massive surplus. The next 0.9% are slowly but surely being targeted by the 0.1% at the top.
For the rest it's about fighting over crumbs now I guess. Very hard for anyone these days to make a lot of coin without some sort of government subsidy / kick back. It can be done, but it's very difficult. Not everyone is born with an entrepreneurial mind and even if they were they couldn't all be successful if governments chose to ration spending.

The internet is offering a lot of opportunity for many, but those doors are being shut rather quickly as well through censorship, buyouts and so on.

If we could bring Adam Smith and Karl Marx forward in time both of them would be saying what the hell happened to Capitalism because whatever this shit is now it was nothing either of them ever discussed or predicted.

[The Dunster]

RIP Fidel Castro. He loved a Rolex as much as the next communist.
That said, he embarrassed the crap out of the USA and for that the Americans will be crapping on about how nasty / evil he was. When you look at the poverty sweeping though the USA , the racism, the violence..and so on the Americans really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to looking after your own. What probably hurt the Cuban people most was the US embargo more so than the actions of Castro. If the US truly cared about the plight of the Cuban people they would have never placed such horrific sanctions on them.
Cubans have as good if not better life expectancy than US citizens due to having more GP's per capita - the Americans need to get their own house in order first.

[plague]

President-elect Trump already getting shit done.

[plague]

I mean Hitler built some lovely roads too but yanno, murderous bastard and all that.

[hawk]

I mean Hitler built some lovely roads too but yanno, murderous bastard and all that.

He created the best docos though

Meanwhile....Researchers may have 'found' many of China's 30 million missing girls
http://www.smh.com.au/world/research...30-gt1aro.html

oops, there they are or could be a coverup

[steve136]

If any of the current allegations against Trump are true, they make Watergate look like a speeding ticket.

Except for Golden Shower Gate. That would just rattle some evangelicals in the south that voted for him.

[plague]

If any of the current allegations against Trump are true, they make Watergate look like a speeding ticket.

as opposed to all the other shit he got (deservedly) flung at him during the election?
c'mon man, people just got to realise that he won because he was (seemingly) less of a scumbag than the other one. like it or not 'murica is gonna get its 4 years of Trump no matter what.

Open up and take yer medicine.


Also, Obama has behaved like a complete bitch on his way out the door. Reading back it didnt 'seem' like any former Presidents from either side acted this poorly.

I guess they all end up getting remembered fondly with hindsight. Barry O will prob be back on the campaign trail with his missus soon enough anyway.

[steve136]

as opposed to all the other shit he got (deservedly) flung at him during the election?
c'mon man, people just got to realise that he won because he was (seemingly) less of a scumbag than the other one. like it or not 'murica is gonna get its 4 years of Trump no matter what.

Open up and take yer medicine.


Also, Obama has behaved like a complete bitch on his way out the door. Reading back it didnt 'seem' like any former Presidents from either side acted this poorly.

I guess they all end up getting remembered fondly with hindsight. Barry O will prob be back on the campaign trail with his missus soon enough anyway.

Well firstly, if you wish to watch a grown man behave like a complete an utter twat make your way over to Donald J Trump's twitter feed. It's a miracle the man knows enough words to even get close to 140 characters, but his all caps lock rants are truly something to behold. I mean, he's accused by several intelligence agencies of colluding with Russia during his campaign, and his first defence is to tweet -

"Russia just said the unverified report paid for by political opponents is "A COMPLETE AND TOTAL FABRICATION, UTTER NONSENSE." Very unfair!"

It's also interesting to note how much his story has changed recently. As of today he has "NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA - NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!". A slight change from a few years back when Russians "make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets... a lot of money pouring in from Russia."

The U.S's intelligence indicates that Russia was behind the hacking of the DNC. Trump, who has long expressed admiration for Putin has his doubts. You don't think that perhaps the president-elect siding with Russia against his own countries' interest and intelligence is a slight threat to national security?

I don't like many of Obama's policies, but from all I've seen he's been a standup guy throughout the last two months. Most presidents/president elects meet just once, but Obama has met with Trump several times, apparently explaining to him exactly what the President does and how government agencies and offices work.

[plague]

Well firstly, if you wish to watch a grown man behave like a complete an utter twat make your way over to Donald J Trump's twitter feed. It's a miracle the man knows enough words to even get close to 140 characters, but his all caps lock rants are truly something to behold. I mean, he's accused by several intelligence agencies of colluding with Russia during his campaign, and his first defence is to tweet -

"Russia just said the unverified report paid for by political opponents is "A COMPLETE AND TOTAL FABRICATION, UTTER NONSENSE." Very unfair!"

It's also interesting to note how much his story has changed recently. As of today he has "NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA - NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!". A slight change from a few years back when Russians "make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets... a lot of money pouring in from Russia."


I don't like many of Obama's policies, but from all I've seen he's been a standup guy throughout the last two months. Most presidents/president elects meet just once, but Obama has met with Trump several times, apparently explaining to him exactly what the President does and how government agencies and offices work.

The following quote appeared at the top of the page of the article in question:

A dossier, compiled by a person who has claimed to be a former British intelligence official, alleges Russia has compromising information on Trump. The allegations are unverified, and the report contains errors.

Now listen, if thats the way you want to consume your journalism, then thats on you.

What i am saying is that if you are going to believe this report, then you need to give the same credence to Obamas birth certificate, to Clintons peadophile ring, the dude in the car shot JFK, Hoover organised MLK's shooting and Ben Kennedy done 9/11.

Again, if thats your boogie then fine.

The U.S's intelligence indicates that Russia was behind the hacking of the DNC. Trump, who has long expressed admiration for Putin has his doubts. You don't think that perhaps the president-elect siding with Russia against his own countries' interest and intelligence is a slight threat to national security?

Now this one entertains me. So having a cordial relationship with another super power is a bad thing? Yep, sounds fair. You do realise that if he "talked tough" on Russia then everyone would be like "BHHUUUHHH TRUMP IS A COWBOY WAR MONGER MORON BHHHUUUHHH". you know, kind of like he's doing with Mexico and China.

Id bet good money that USA, Russia, China, Japan, Australia and Indonesia all engage in significant intelligence gathering by means that would be unethical. But (a Trump led) USA is now supposed to behave differently? Amazing that its an issue now, as opposed to ya know, 2 years ago.

and one more thing.

Well firstly, if you wish to watch a grown man behave like a complete an utter twat make your way over to Donald J Trump's twitter feed.

The twitter stuff. ummm, its Twitter. You go put your moral compass on it. Im good thanks. Hey man, at least his twitter feed is verified, which is better than all the other stuff you're tying your horse to.

[plague]

Actually Steve-O, been wondering this for a bit.
Do you believe in God?
Straight up question, yes or no.
What you got?

[The Dunster]

Trump is a bitch for the banks and for the mob. Each group owns a good chunk of him and he's scared shirtless of both -and who can blame him.
While he's carrying on like the ass-clown the focus is on him rather than the shit being forced into legislation by the lobby groups.
Trump knows the family business and managed to get one successful TV series going as well. Everything else he's tried has been an epic fail.
He's not too bright and all but he does have the most important trait for any business person - absolutely no conscience.
He's just the man the banksters need to further tighten their grip on the global financial system.
Hillary, for much the same reasons would have done equally well for them, as did Obama.

Unlike Hillary and Obama [both terms] Trump actually went to the polls with policies - he may never get them into action but at least he took something to the election.
At least he was willing to offer people a plan / alternative.

Obama won two elections without ever talking about policy - which probably makes him even more of a clown than Trump.

What does Trump need to do ? Create Jobs - Millions of them, and the sooner the better.
The private sector cannot create enough jobs so it's up to the governments to use their spending capacity and get things up and running.
THe more the government spends the lower the debt held by the private sector becomes.
When the private sectors debt decreases they gain confidence and start to spend again.
Business sees consumer confidence increasing and invest to take advantage of it.
Everybody wins - it's called capitalism - it's the best system - hope I get to see it wake up again from it's 45 year nap.
Most people on this site have never seen capitalism - they have really only witnessed a plutocracy.

[q-money]

even if it isn't true, how good is the story that he had a hooker soaked piss party on a bed that the obamas once slept in at the moscow ritz carlton ffs.

amazing.

[The Dunster]

even if it isn't true, how good is the story that he had a hooker soaked piss party on a bed that the obamas once slept in at the moscow ritz carlton ffs.

amazing.

Anyone that doesn't have hooker soaked piss parties is un-American.

Trump in.

For the record in my younger days I ****ed a few well cashed up chicks. Without doubt the more money they have the dirtier they are. Your poor socialist bitches are all dead roots. Get a chick with money and ya better padlock the fridge or plan on doing a cucumber / carrot run for the following nights dinner - due to their no holes vacant policy.

Hence, on the other side of the coin it wouldn't surprise me if Donny was into water sports other than polo and sailing.

[q-money]

dunster after dark ffs

[Bon]

HAHAHAHA Dunster delivering the goods...

[q-money]

[pv4]

was this you or is this doing the rounds? Phenomenal.

Dunster, ward of Griffology