Grassroots Football

[MFKS]

who said you were wrong about the mandate?
i dont care if its mandated or not.

but the larger point being discussed on here is that some people dont think the coaches should be paid at all.
some think coaches should be paid more.
im just out here trying to understand the points of view of people who dont think they deserve it.

You made a point a post or 2 back about the game being forever broke

On 1 hand it is accurate as neither the clubs or the governing bodies are rolling in cash

But on the other hand this is a billion$$ economy in Oz alone and there is actually heaps of money in the game and it is just not being used correctly

This is an issue that needs serious addressing from the FFA



As for your point about coaches being paid or shouldnt be paid I dont think that is the argument

If clubs can afford to pay coaches and players at levels below the HAL then I would rather the money was invested into removing the costs of coaching courses and what impedes people from doing them so more people are educated adequately and better than they currently are about the game to be able to teach more

Also your piint about the sacrifices made to coach and remuneration being worth it if that is effecting people taking up coaching then they shouldnt be in it to start with

It isnt about "them" to start with

[The Dunster]

You made a point a post or 2 back about the game being forever broke

On 1 hand it is accurate as neither the clubs or the governing bodies are rolling in cash

But on the other hand this is a billion$$ economy in Oz alone and there is actually heaps of money in the game and it is just not being used correctly

This is an issue that needs serious addressing from the FFA



As for your point about coaches being paid or shouldnt be paid I dont think that is the argument

If clubs can afford to pay coaches and players at levels below the HAL then I would rather the money was invested into removing the costs of coaching courses and what impedes people from doing them so more people are educated adequately and better than they currently are about the game to be able to teach more

Also your piint about the sacrifices made to coach and remuneration being worth it if that is effecting people taking up coaching then they shouldnt be in it to start with

It isnt about "them" to start with

Member making a lot of sense here.

[sammydog]

I would rather the money was invested into removing the costs of coaching courses and what impedes people from doing them so more people are educated adequately and better than they currently are about the game to be able to teach more

If the courses cost less, not only would more people do them, people possibly wouldn't see the need to try and recoup the costs of their education.

[plague]

You made a point a post or 2 back about the game being forever broke

On 1 hand it is accurate as neither the clubs or the governing bodies are rolling in cash

But on the other hand this is a billion$$ economy in Oz alone and there is actually heaps of money in the game and it is just not being used correctly

This is an issue that needs serious addressing from the FFA



As for your point about coaches being paid or shouldnt be paid I dont think that is the argument

If clubs can afford to pay coaches and players at levels below the HAL then I would rather the money was invested into removing the costs of coaching courses and what impedes people from doing them so more people are educated adequately and better than they currently are about the game to be able to teach more

Also your piint about the sacrifices made to coach and remuneration being worth it if that is effecting people taking up coaching then they shouldnt be in it to start with

It isnt about "them" to start with

Sorry, should have clarified that the governing body is forever broke.
Agree there is plenty of money flowing through the game.
As for the FFA 'addressing it', I'd suggest that taking a lot of the power away from the state feds in this latest shakeup may pave the way for more of that money to come to HQ that they can hopefully spend wisely.

As for it it not being about coaches.
So you're happy to do whatever it takes to find the next Iniesta or Griff, but you dont care that they'll be coached by Gypo Arnie and Couscous?

Why cant we find the next Pep or Klopp too?

[Negative Police]

An important point.

If you want kids to gain access to further rep teams then the ffa pathway is to draw from SAP teams specifically. EG The Richard Hartley NET skills Program used to send kids to State tournaments and do very well but since the introduction of the latest SAP the NET is not allowed to send teams.

SAP also calls for special age specific train on squads (u10, u11 that i know of) in order to get teams ready for a variety of rep games during the season. So this makes it harder for kids training with other highly skilled coaches maybe for a cheaper fee or parents to crack into rep teams.

[The Dunster]

An important point.

If you want kids to gain access to further rep teams then the ffa pathway is to draw from SAP teams specifically. EG The Richard Hartley NET skills Program used to send kids to State tournaments and do very well but since the introduction of the latest SAP the NET is not allowed to send teams.

SAP also calls for special age specific train on squads (u10, u11 that i know of) in order to get teams ready for a variety of rep games during the season. So this makes it harder for kids training with other highly skilled coaches maybe for a cheaper fee or parents to crack into rep teams.

Good post but none of this will matter to the parents who have their kids enrolled in these programs.

[Negative Police]

Why would I be pointing this out to people already in the scheme fgs.

It's for those who are thinking about going a different route. I wonder if NPL clubs will send most of these players into NPL teams 13's and up.

[plague]

An important point.

If you want kids to gain access to further rep teams then the ffa pathway is to draw from SAP teams specifically. EG The Richard Hartley NET skills Program used to send kids to State tournaments and do very well but since the introduction of the latest SAP the NET is not allowed to send teams.

SAP also calls for special age specific train on squads (u10, u11 that i know of) in order to get teams ready for a variety of rep games during the season. So this makes it harder for kids training with other highly skilled coaches maybe for a cheaper fee or parents to crack into rep teams.

yeah we were originally sold on the SAP program it was developed because there was a lot of self interest in junior development (no names were used).
NNSW was adamant that by taking back control of the junior development and putting it in the hands of clubs it was going to be better long term, especially due to the extended amount of numbers of kids that were going to be exposed to the extra coaching.

the clubs were all adamant the program is designed to feed the junior jets from age 12(?) onwards and everyone else will feed into the clubs NPL teams.
obviously NPL players will still be on the Jets radar so all is not lost if they dont make it at the early ages.

and of course kids will come from outside the program and still make NPL teams (and the Jets juniors). thats football.
it just cracks me up that a program has been developed with the well being of the National league team and the local NPL clubs as a priority yet people still just think its some sort of folly for 'rich' parents to send their snot nosed kids.

of course things were done better in the old days when 9 year olds walked 10 miles to training after working a shift down the mines.
i get it.

[plague]

An important point.

If you want kids to gain access to further rep teams then the ffa pathway is to draw from SAP teams specifically. EG The Richard Hartley NET skills Program used to send kids to State tournaments and do very well but since the introduction of the latest SAP the NET is not allowed to send teams.

does anyone on here have kids involved in these programs (Richard Hartley etc).
Does anyone have an idea of cost/facilites/amount of training.

i have no idea about the bloke but man oh man his name comes up A LOT in conversations about junior development.

would love some real feedback if anyone has it.

[The Dunster]

Why would I be pointing this out to people already in the scheme fgs.

It's for those who are thinking about going a different route. I wonder if NPL clubs will send most of these players into NPL teams 13's and up.

The parents in most cases are clueless about these scams - that's why they work.
Telling those who haven't signed up already that it's the only way for their kids to make it doesn't really solve anything either.
It just adds to the mass of lemmings lining up to go off the cliff.

[MFKS]

If the courses cost less, not only would more people do them, people possibly wouldn't see the need to try and recoup the costs of their education.

Why do they need to cost anything anyway??

The information in them is only going to educate the football community more and benefit football more in the long run


Exactly why is it being controlled and limited in its spreading by placing prohibitive costs on it??

Surely the goal should be to double triple quadruple etc the amount of qualified coaches in all the various categories??

[Negative Police]

does anyone on here have kids involved in these programs (Richard Hartley etc).
Does anyone have an idea of cost/facilites/amount of training.

i have no idea about the bloke but man oh man his name comes up A LOT in conversations about junior development.

would love some real feedback if anyone has it.

Ok...

RH in conjunction with Newcastle football set up the original Net system which is much like SAP now so as to get a lot more kids at a higher level. At the time there was a different SAP comp which comprised of Newcastle, Macquarie, Hunter and other further regional teams which left a lot of good local players with no other high skill path.

So around 8 to 10 local NPL/1 clubs formed and developed highly trained u10/u11/u12 comps playing each other during winter over 14 rounds, usually all at Wallarah oval Lambton.
These teams trained 2/3 nights a week and were/are considered elite as their results in State cup showed. It still runs now along side SAP. It is around 1/2 the cost of SAP but has less rounds.

I know 2 clubs who pick their Net teams who just missed out on SAP although that doesnt mean lesser players in real terms. The kicker is after the winter comp they then play a summer comp (usually with some different team setup) from Sep to Nov which is quite well priced.

Im sure there are greater details etc.

[plague]

I know 2 clubs who pick their Net teams who just missed out on SAP although that doesnt mean lesser players in real terms.

cheers for the feedback.

one club I know of are running 2 SAP teams and a NET team for u/10.
They moved some kids over from U/9 SAP to give them a different training method as the SAP model didnt 'seem' suited to them.
The club was very eager to make sure everyone knew that SAP wasnt 'better' than NET, it was just a different way of doing things.
From memory their NET price was about 30% cheaper than SAP, though i dont know for sure how many games etc they are scheduled to play.

[Negative Police]

The parents in most cases are clueless about these scams - that's why they work.
Telling those who haven't signed up already that it's the only way for their kids to make it doesn't really solve anything either.
It just adds to the mass of lemmings lining up to go off the cliff.

Scam?
The overall result of providing a wider platform of higher skilled juniors was a success last year.
Overpriced - I would say yes because some or many coaches are up-skilled parents but they do have a TD oversee training and philosophy etc.
Are most young players chosen for reps from SAP - Yes. Does this get all the best? A lot better chance than previously when having a big business dad got many kids in (who maybe also went to all the high cost $kills camp$?) Im not saying its the best way yet.

Didnt someone mention earlier that last years fees of $700 pp wasnt even a break even?
2019 fees for most clubs with 2 teams would be u9s $900 x 16 players = 14,400 then x2 for U10s = $29,000 thats a lot of $$

Could we do it for cheaper?
You'd hope so. Becuase if we had 2-4 extra community teams that use the same lights, grounds, balls, equipment and a coach would still be $250 per player or maybe 450 with kit.

[Negative Police]

cheers for the feedback.

one club I know of are running 2 SAP teams and a NET team for u/10.
They moved some kids over from U/9 SAP to give them a different training method as the SAP model didnt 'seem' suited to them.
The club was very eager to make sure everyone knew that SAP wasnt 'better' than NET, it was just a different way of doing things.
From memory their NET price was about 30% cheaper than SAP, though i dont know for sure how many games etc they are scheduled to play.

Yep. I asked what was the difference at a public meeting as I heard many whispers asking each other. They said the same. Less games for NET.

Keeps more kids at the club and trials will happen again next year.

[Gary]

Northerns SAP rego fees are $367.50 per kid straight off the bat.
Then clubs incorporate kits, their own council fees for the one night they train at their local ground etc & you can see how it adds up quite quickly.

[Retired01]

Scam?
The overall result of providing a wider platform of higher skilled juniors was a success last year.
Overpriced - I would say yes because some or many coaches are up-skilled parents but they do have a TD oversee training and philosophy etc.
Are most young players chosen for reps from SAP - Yes. Does this get all the best? A lot better chance than previously when having a big business dad got many kids in (who maybe also went to all the high cost $kills camp$?) Im not saying its the best way yet.

I agree with this statement as mentioned earlier the SAP program worked last year and weaker teams got better as the season went forward. These teams had a lot of room for improvement and it showed. The stronger teams were winning by less margin so I guess those coaches and TDs need to work out where to next. focus on tactics and structure closer to get those little improvements.
It will be interesting to see if the TSP is genuine in a few weeks or a smooth over to select kids from all clubs and make mum and dads believe their boy is heading to the A league.

[The Dunster]

Scam?
The overall result of providing a wider platform of higher skilled juniors was a success last year.
Overpriced - I would say yes because some or many coaches are up-skilled parents but they do have a TD oversee training and philosophy etc.
Are most young players chosen for reps from SAP - Yes. Does this get all the best? A lot better chance than previously when having a big business dad got many kids in (who maybe also went to all the high cost $kills camp$?) Im not saying its the best way yet.

Didnt someone mention earlier that last years fees of $700 pp wasnt even a break even?
2019 fees for most clubs with 2 teams would be u9s $900 x 16 players = 14,400 then x2 for U10s = $29,000 thats a lot of $$

Could we do it for cheaper?
You'd hope so. Becuase if we had 2-4 extra community teams that use the same lights, grounds, balls, equipment and a coach would still be $250 per player or maybe 450 with kit.

Appreciate the response. If SAP does alleviate what I bolded in your response that's certainly going a long way to make things right.

[plague]

Appreciate the response. If SAP does alleviate what I bolded in your response that's certainly going a long way to make things right.

Yeah part of taking this sort of development away from 'third party' set ups and into the hands of clubs is that if the clubs play it right they will have good quality kids making up the bulk of their future 1st grade squads. the very best of them will go higher, but this is also a club building exercise.

one thing id also love to see in the future is some sort of kickback to the junior clubs of kids that do 'make it'.
even if its not a huge amount, imagine a kid making the Jets squad and a little bit of money either from the FFA or A-League club goes back to the club where he/she started.

[sammydog]

Yeah part of taking this sort of development away from 'third party' set ups and into the hands of clubs is that if the clubs play it right they will have good quality kids making up the bulk of their future 1st grade squads. the very best of them will go higher, but this is also a club building exercise.

No, it only helps the clubs with SAP build.

Be clear about that. Everyone else is left out in the cold. It is very hard to develop juniors when you know they are going to leave for something you can not offer.

Our club may only play in the Zone League, but I cant remember the last time a junior came through to play in our squad because they are all taken away from the club by the SAP and NPL systems leaving us with very few teams over the age of 12.

Makes it hard to build when Juniors are lured away.

one thing id also love to see in the future is some sort of kickback to the junior clubs of kids that do 'make it'.
even if its not a huge amount, imagine a kid making the Jets squad and a little bit of money either from the FFA or A-League club goes back to the club where he/she started.

Does that kick back continue back to the clubs that originally had the kids, before the SAP programs took them in?