The Politics/Religion/Conspiracies Deathmatch Thread

[My2BobsWorth]

Don't watch debates, question time would be more exciting, and Tony pulled the paper on Julia last time, that's why Kev got him back. Good one Kev

[la bazzle]

My personal beleif is that the churches should have say in this but if it was done in canberra id like the country as a whole to vote on it and let politicians focus on running the country.

lololol....the churches (any of them) should not have a say in any aspects of our lives let alone legislations etc. Should we ask the Jedi's on their thoughts as well? I wonder if they could "stop the boats" lolololololololololololol

[furns]

No, that would be the Trade Federation baz

(phantom menace joke)

[GazFish35]

I'm with baz (though currently we arent married) on the churches thing. seperation of church and state is vital, there is no way they should have any power to impact legislation. What has the legal and civil rights of anyone got to with a church? if churches dont support gay marriage, they dont have to perform the ceremony.

its not goin to matter who wins, the country will still be run by politicians.

lengthening the term of government might help allieviate so much of the short sighted nature of canberra,

everything is about surving the next three years rather than making long term decidions.
that, and how sexy the candidiates are. Abbott is a fool, hes done so well to hide his idiocy and slips up in campaign time. nufty.

[My2BobsWorth]

Sir Humphrey would have a good laugh at politicians running the country Mr Fish

[furns]

I'm with baz (though currently we arent married) on the churches thing. seperation of church and state is vital, there is no way they should have any power to impact legislation. What has the legal and civil rights of anyone got to with a church? if churches dont support gay marriage, they dont have to perform the ceremony.

its not goin to matter who wins, the country will still be run by politicians.

lengthening the term of government might help allieviate so much of the short sighted nature of canberra,

everything is about surving the next three years rather than making long term decidions.
that, and how sexy the candidiates are. Abbott is a fool, hes done so well to hide his idiocy and slips up in campaign time. nufty.TA is the suppository of political knowledge in Australia however

[plague]

a couple of things:
1. who has the right to define the word marriage? is it a church word or is it defined by the state. no one has ever really been able to answer that question for me. any legal eagles out there? in the same way i cant call my house a church because someone else dictates what a church is. who has the power to change it.

2. pollies need to remember that it is not just their opinion on whether to allow it or not, a pollies role is to represent their constituents in the house of parliament. agreed it should be a conscience vote but some of these people need to remember the real reason they are there. now that this issue has come to the fore, one would hope that everyone running for a seat makes his or her stance well known before the people decide.

[hawk]

i will vote for the party who allows that gays should be sentenced to years of misery through marriage, acknowledges that australia doesnt kill refugees but there is a need to fix corruption in indonesia, one who can keep priests out of kids and one that can manage australia's finances so that we can all afford a fking ice cream/carton on a sundee arv.

[true waterboy]

a couple of things:
1. who has the right to define the word marriage? is it a church word or is it defined by the state. no one has ever really been able to answer that question for me.


Thats a very good question.

The reason I beleive that the churches should have a say in gay marriage is because while growing up marriage was always said to be a ceremony performed by the church. This could be just my up bringing but ive always considered a wedding to be religious and/or spiritual.

Even if im wrong on this matter it should never be left in the hands of politicians. especially those that are only trying to gain votes to win an election.

[boz-monaut]

there are much better ways to determine the validity of a relationship than by letting a holy man ensure that they have different genitals

a wedding is between two people who love each other - if they chose to make it religious or spiritual it is their choice

and you're right, it shouldn't be in the hands of politicians, it should be left to the people getting married

[pv4]

lengthening the term of government might help allieviate so much of the short sighted nature of canberra,


Disagree tbh. Every time I hear a labour lover talk to me about how good labour is and how "evil" liberal is - they always blame ANYTHING that goes wrong on a "hung parliament". What that means, I still don't fully understand (nor want to). They've been in for 6 years, and can't even take the blame for things like how ridiculously poor they've managed policies like their mining tax that has cost more than it was worth (and they can blame the failure of the mining tax of companies whittling it down to barely a remnant of its original intent all they want - the labour government epically failed and the only thing it's actually done is piss of one of the most major industries of Australia).

IMO if we want to alleviate the short sighted nature of canberra, we need liberal in. Labour have proved with this Rudd-Gillard-Rudd thing that they are hugely indecisive and inconsistent - we need stayers to lead us IMO

[la bazzle]

Thats a very good question.

The reason I beleive that the churches should have a say in gay marriage is because while growing up marriage was always said to be a ceremony performed by the church. This could be just my up bringing but ive always considered a wedding to be religious and/or spiritual.

Even if im wrong on this matter it should never be left in the hands of politicians. especially those that are only trying to gain votes to win an election.

Sure the churches can have a say, they can have a say in who they marry. But why should they be able to make decisions about people getting married outside of their own organisation? I'm not saying its right that politicians should make this decision, but if theres one group who shouldn't be making the decision its a group following directions from a book written from translations of scrolls that were copies of letters written 2000 years ago. My whole problem isn't even gay marriage, it doesn't effect me personally, but it's the point that religious views and ideas should have no impact on any laws and legislations in this country. If we want to go down that road we should start off by banning the consumption of prawns and making sure no one is mixing their wools and linen

[pv4]

if churches dont support gay marriage, they dont have to perform the ceremony.


FWIW I'm very for gay marriage. I know a lot of people who have been married who DO NOT deserve to as much as gay couples I know.

There are a fair few churches/priests/religions who wouldn't mind if gays can be married but don't feel it appropriate or would refuse to do it in their church - and the main issue they have with legalising gay marriage is they'll be seen as discriminating (judgment is a sin) for turning away gays who want to be married and the priests don't want to do it due to principle of themselves or the church. So religious people I know are either (1) bible says no, gays are bad (2) gays should be allowed to marry (3) doesn't bother me, but I don't think our church would allow it and I don't want to be seen as a bad guy for saying no.

[GazFish35]

Sir Humphrey would have a good laugh at politicians running the country Mr Fish

my bad :)

should have just quoted my old man "doesnt matter who you vote for, you always get a politician"

[GazFish35]

Disagree tbh. Every time I hear a labour lover talk to me about how good labour is and how "evil" liberal is - they always blame ANYTHING that goes wrong on a "hung parliament". What that means, I still don't fully understand (nor want to). They've been in for 6 years, and can't even take the blame for things like how ridiculously poor they've managed policies like their mining tax that has cost more than it was worth (and they can blame the failure of the mining tax of companies whittling it down to barely a remnant of its original intent all they want - the labour government epically failed and the only thing it's actually done is piss of one of the most major industries of Australia).

IMO if we want to alleviate the short sighted nature of canberra, we need liberal in. Labour have proved with this Rudd-Gillard-Rudd thing that they are hugely indecisive and inconsistent - we need stayers to lead us IMO

hard to respond to your points if you dont understand the current stae of the "hung parliament".
it essentially wouldnt have mattered who was in charge the past three years have been a stalemate, libs woul have achevded very little too if the independants had sided with them, having said that, if you live in oakeshot country you might argue that a lot has happened in this term.

and dismissing longer terms in office based on the last 6 yrs is flawed also.
Labour haven't had six years straight, they've had two lots of three, cut in half by an election that distracts parliament from actually governing
the 3 yr term means parties spend 2 years focussed on trying to make changes and 1 yr trying to get re-ellected. longer terms like the 5yrs in the US might mean some more serious debate and future long term planning might be more forthcoming. it might also mean parties in opposition might be more willing to work through issues and see legislataion passed rather than just holding shit up till the next election. Might also eliviate some of the "we inherited the problem" excuses both side always trot out.

[pv4]

So the current system is flawed, in that no one can get anything done because of the state of parliament, and we want to increase the time the nothing-getting-done parliament (either lib or labour) is in? If anything, this shows how the American system in general is better as opposed to a party-preferred system. How many people do you know "won't vote for Abbott because he's creepy" or "won't vote for Kevin because he's a numpty without notes", yet can't even tell you the name of their local members (aka who you actually vote for)?

FWIW I see merit in some of the things you're saying about extending parliament tenure. But also I see it as a giraffe stuck in quicksand - they've got a shitload of time to regret some of their life decisions. A long tenure would be great if you're pro-current-leader, and would be hell if you weren't. It's going to piss of half the population no matter what (half is obviously a loose figure).

[GazFish35]

the current hung parliament situtaion isnt a product of the length of a term. its a product of what we all voted for three years ago. I agree if temrs were longer and the sitauation repated than we'd have a hung aprliament for longer.... though the GG might send us back to the polls again.... or we might have voted differently kbnowin we are voting someone in for longer.... or the diffeerences in the two major parties might be clearer.

i just cant stand the current shitfight we go through every three years, it watses time and makes the time actually in parliament less productive as so many decisions are focussed on popularist views to keep power at the next election instead of allowing some real leaderships, some tough decions to be made and real changes to occur to make th eplace a better joint.


back to the real issues though

Abbott - **** me. "sex appeal" how dumb is the bloke, if he thought sex appeal was one of the first three virtues of a politician that he shold be spruiking, why the hell is he running? ugliest face in canberra - he looks like Roald Dahl's BFG. And why the hell was Julia Bishop in Canberra so long?

[true waterboy]

I love the look of his daughter in the vision the moment he said sex appeal. you could tell he meant it as a joke but surely hes smart enough to realise politicians cant get away with jokes in this politically correct time we live in.

the longer this election goes for the more its turning into a joke.

[furns]

american system vs aussie system as expained by The Daily Show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5W6C8O729ZE

[plague]

Good lord. If anyone is outraged over Abbotts sex appeal comment, Rudds notes or Rudds kid smoking a cigar then you have way more issues than who is going to be leader of your country.

[plague]

Also big ups to the Auto Workers union for being sensible in their new workplace arrangement.
All sides of pollies now need to come in and work out a way to make the car industry more viable.
This is how unions should operate and not enough kudos was given to them.

[pv4]

I'm a boilermaker by trade

http://i44.tinypic.com/sw4eth.png


In a way mineworkers have shot themselves in the foot. By chasing the high wages, they have effectively shut themselves out of the traditional manufacturing industry. Really is the lack of jobs for your mates really because there is no work or because they do not wish to work for 17-20 bucks an away in a factory?

Tbth it's a bit of both. Some have "priced themselves out" while others just legit can't find jobs - I know boilies struggling to find market-rate-hourly-prices anywhere near home (within 2 hours).

[The Dunster]

http://i44.tinypic.com/sw4eth.png
Tbth it's a bit of both. Some have "priced themselves out" while others just legit can't find jobs - I know boilies struggling to find market-rate-hourly-prices anywhere near home (within 2 hours).

The lack of jobs is due to insufficient aggregate demand. Wage rates have absolutely nothing to do with it. There is no market clearing wage that would guarentee full employment - and there certainly isn't one in a nation that has chronic current account deficits and governments that are unwilling to run budgetary positions compatible with full employment.

Unemployment is an exogenous variable directly linked to aggregate demand. If the private sector wishes to save then the government secotor must by definition run a deficit to make up the gap between the level of spending compatible with full employment and the actual level of spending.

The only exception to this is when the external account is in surplus. Unfortunately, in Australia the trade balance is dwarfed by the net income account [payments to overseas owners] which produces a Current Account Deficit.

Boring as bat shit. Yes. But it's the simplest explaination I can give.

[Skirt Boy]

Tbth it's a bit of both. Some have "priced themselves out" while others just legit can't find jobs - I know boilies struggling to find market-rate-hourly-prices anywhere near home (within 2 hours).

Herein lies another problem. The barriers to entry into employment are quite high. I remember when I first got my trade papers it was relatively straight forward to get a job pretty much anywhere simply because I was a trady. Now you need green cards, white cards, OH&S inductions, site inductions, and other tickets for certain machinery. Whilst I can understand the safety aspect of this, the cost is usually born by the employees instead of companies themselves providing the training as what used to happy and is one of the reasons why I made sure that I could do other work in addition to being a tradesman because you never know when a certain occupation has more workers then available then whats actually in demand.

Restricting yourself to one type of profession is a little silly in my view.

[militiamon]

Liberal candidate Kevin Baker quits race for Charlton over lewd website

The Liberal candidate for the safe Labor seat of Charlton, near Newcastle, has quit over an inappropriate website he ran.

Kevin Baker set up an online forum for car enthusiasts several years ago and has now apologised for making inappropriate comments on it.

Mr Baker says he shut down the site because he had failed to moderate it properly and some users added inappropriate content.

He has now announced he has quit the race for the seat of Charlton, although his name will stay on the ballot paper.

"Today I have advised the NSW state director of the Liberal Party that I will not be running as the Liberal candidate for Charlton at the federal election," he said in a brief statement released this afternoon.

"I understand that while my name will still appear on the ballot paper, my campaign is over.

"I deeply regret the posts made on my website and decided that it was not appropriate to continue as the Party's candidate."

The New South Wales Liberal Party says it has accepted his resignation and therefore will not be represented in the seat at this election.

Earlier Finance Minister Penny Wong called on Opposition Leader Tony Abbott to disendorse Mr Baker over the website, which included jokes about domestic violence and the Pope being a paedophile.

"He can take a leaf out of his mentor's book, because John Howard faced a similar situation in 1996 with Pauline Hanson and he took action - disendorsed her and made clear that she would never sit in the Coalition party room," she said.

Mr Abbott had resisted sacking Mr Baker.

"He's done the wrong thing. He's pulled down the site. He has apologised," Mr Abbott said earlier today.

Charlton, held by departing Climate Change, Industry and Innovation Minister Greg Combet, is considered a very safe Labor seat, held with a 12.7 per cent margin.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-20/liberal-party-dump-charlton-candidate-kevin-baker-over-lewd-web/4900436?section=nsw


Finance Minister Penny Wong has called on Opposition Leader Tony Abbott to disendorse a Liberal candidate who reportedly hosted a website which included jokes about domestic violence and the Pope being a paedophile.

Kevin Baker, who is contesting former minister Greg Combet's NSW seat of Charlton, was forced to shut down the personal website after it was revealed he had "posted hundreds of lewd jokes about women and had links to pornography", the Daily Telegraph has reported.

"Some of that banter, it has now been discovered, included jokes about the Pope being a paedophile, women having sex on pool tables and what Mr Baker himself calls 'Tit-banter'," the newspaper said.

A huge blow to crook's ambitions for being pre-selected in the 2016 election campagin.

[plague]

I think he walked the plank this arvo.
silly boy indeed. how can any aspiring Pollies think this shit wont get brought up?

[snake]

did anyone else receive in the mail a "how to vote" letter from uncle clive, with free Titanic II DVD?

:rof:

[plague]

did anyone else receive in the mail a "how to vote" letter from uncle clive, with free Titanic II DVD?

:rof:

I got something from the great man, but have so far kept it in the plastic. I want to be around family and friends when I open it.
Clive, always thinking of the people.

Where's VJ on this? Surely it's just Cons paddledteamer idea on steroids.
Lowy will rue the day he took Clives license away.

[My2BobsWorth]

I chucked it like most people, could end up being a collectors item

[plague]

Gotta say Abbott came out looking good in the people's forum debate tonight. Rudd went at him hard and the questions were mainly skewed against him but the fact he answered them made him look good.
I'd say Rudd wins slightly on points but overall it will make Abott look better.

Shouldn't have made the shut up comment though. Not appropriate.

[pv4]

I got something from the great man, but have so far kept it in the plastic. I want to be around family and friends when I open it.
Clive, always thinking of the people.

Where's VJ on this? Surely it's just Cons paddledteamer idea on steroids.
Lowy will rue the day he took Clives license away.

:rof: we're waiting till the weekend to watch it with the family.

The most unexpectedly awesome election campaign flyer I've ever seen :rof:

[selassie]

more from clive


"My hair is not as silky as Rudd's and my body not as toned as Abbott's but I offer common sense and real business experience."

why wouldn't you vote for him.

also this pearler from the devil.


when Bill Heffernan took issue with Greens senator Lee Rhiannon's view on agricultural practices, or some such. "I think," Heffernan began encouragingly, "(there's a bit) too much pot and too much armpit-plaiting going on there." Rhiannon deemed this "really insulting" - and fair enough; who plaits these days? The Heff insisted "we're just having fun", an overly inclusive hypothesis Rhiannon quickly shot down. "Oh, go away," Heff concluded.

[Grimario]

KRudd has done an AMA on reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1lbe0s/i_am_kevin_rudd_the_prime_minister_of_australia/

Some interesting reading.

[pv4]

Anyone know the full details on the charlton electorate? Apparently the liberal guy withdrew due to an incriminating website.

Disregarding your personal bias etc - who is available to vote for, and how would one vote for the least-labour candidate possible?

[plague]

Anyone know the full details on the charlton electorate? Apparently the liberal guy withdrew due to an incriminating website.

Disregarding your personal bias etc - who is available to vote for, and how would one vote for the least-labour candidate possible?

Bronwyn Reid.
http://www.abc.net.au/dat/news/elections/federal/2013/guide/photos/CHAR_PUP_Reid.jpg
http://palmerunited.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Untitled-13.jpg

Probably the only one who can save us.

[pv4]

:rof: just did a bit of research on Pat Conroy, the Charlton labour candidate, for those Charlton-ites interested.

Grew up on the Central Coast, has a creepy-as smile & hates mining

Vote Labour for Charlton! :rof: :gent: :brr:

[q-money]

10 bucks to join palmer united, get on board guyz

[De-Champ]

Better still....send me ten bucks and you can have a party.

[q-money]

stop being so anti D

FREEDOM OF SPEECH

[The Dunster]

KRudd has done an AMA on reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1lbe0s/i_am_kevin_rudd_the_prime_minister_of_australia/

Some interesting reading.


Hi Kevin,

As a 30 something, I am trying to provide a home for my family. However prices for homes are currently astronomical being 9 times the average wage compared 3 times the average wage 20 to 30 years ago.

I strongly believe that there are government policies (in particular negative gearing) is turning our country into a nation of renters instead of a nation of owners and is draining the monetary resources of all aspiring home owners which means they don't spend the money in the general economy.

And the evidence shows that negative gearing does not address any supply issues (> 7% of negatively geared properties are existing stock instead of new houses/apartments).

Why have you (or the opposition) not noticed this (and the effect it has had on the general community) and changed the tax policy so that everyone gets the chance at home ownership and not just the rich or the ones who bought before the 10 year boom that started in 2000?

It doesn't have to be all in straight away, instead just phase it in.

edit: Thanks very much to the generous redditor who gave me reddit gold, it's greatly appreciated :)

The fact that neither major party are against negative gearing shows what sort of a neo-liberalised shit hole Australia has become.

[De-Champ]

But the evidence does not back up your argument. Australia has approx. 70%+ home ownership, one of the highest in the world. Also If 7% of negative geared are existing stock it means 93% of geared properties must be new stock, so it is having an effect on building and construction.

[q-money]

might be true for you hillbillies but buying property in sydney these days is totally ****ed

don't give me the i worked hard and saved yada yada yada malarkey, even if you do that you have no chance of buying anything that goes on the market in a reasonable place close to where you work - as everything is snapped up by dinosaurs with self-managed super funds or blokes with ten houses buying another investment property

it may be great now but what happens to your pensions etc 50 years down the track when the home ownership rate keeps decreasing and the government has to subsidise rent for an aging population that has no property safety net?

let the bubble burst and the blood run free imo

[De-Champ]

who you talking to q

[q-money]

:rof:

eazy e all day

[The Dunster]

But the evidence does not back up your argument. Australia has approx. 70%+ home ownership, one of the highest in the world. Also If 7% of negative geared are existing stock it means 93% of geared properties must be new stock, so it is having an effect on building and construction.

my argument was "The fact that neither major party are against negative gearing shows what sort of a neo-liberalised shit hole Australia has become. " Nothing you have said changes that.

What's wrong with your comment is that the 93% of new contructions will still be using existing stocks of land which will drive up the price of land.

How the **** does that benefit people looking to buy a first home ?

[The Dunster]

Saul Eslake made the following comment about negative gearing in 2011:


It certainly does nothing to increase the supply of housing, since the vast majority of landlords buy established properties: 92 per cent of all borrowing by residential property investors over the past decade has been for the purchase of established dwellings, as against 82 per cent of all borrowing by owner-occupiers. Precisely for that reason, the availability of negative gearing contributes to upward pressure on the prices of established dwellings, and thus diminishes housing affordability for would-be home buyers. Eslake, Saul. (2011)“Time to change the unfair rules for negative gearing,” The Age, 25th April.

Buy hey. What the **** would Saul know anyway.

[The Dunster]

http://www.rba.gov.au/speeches/2010/images/sp-dg-150610-graph1.gif

I won't get stuck into stock flow consistent macroeconomic models here but the above graph is pretty much every reason why governments with external accounts in deficit should never attempt to obtain budget surpluses. And with respect to Housing affordability both Keating and Howard pretty much made it impoossible for lower income earners to ever be able to afford a home. it's an absolute disgrace.

Good news for banks though. Because when the current account is in deficit due to net income payments [thats payments to foreign investors] and the federal government aims to run a surplus it is 100% impossible for the non-government sector to spend less than they earn.

As a result, people are forced to spend via credit, the banks make huge profits, and when households go bust - government steps in, rescues the banks and then we start all over again.

But the master stroke is to actual make the masses beleive that everyone will benefit. It's pure evil genius.

[The Dunster]

And for those of you that think you are working very hard and yet not actually benefiting from it take a look at this little gem of a graph.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Australia_real_wages_productivity_1978_2010.jpg
[Source:http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Australia_real_wages_productivity_1978_2010.jpg]

Productivity is increasing rapidly and yet wages growth is practicially flat. Karl Marx would get a shot away over that graph.

Interesting how workplace relations reform is still being talked about. How ****ing greedy can these khunts get ?

Note: Conservatives should not get too excited about the rises in real wages from 1997 onwards. One you take the top 20% out of the distribution it's far from a victory for the average wage earner. Ans if you want to look at the minimum wgae as a percentage of the average wage - the minimum wage has been in rapid decline in relative terms.

I wouldn't vote for any of these ****s. Labour, Liberal, Green. All shit, and not worth pissng on.

[De-Champ]

I never said negative gearing was fair/unfair. Saul eastlake mentions 82% of borrowings are for owner occupiers....pretty high % don't you think. Why dont you post some graphs with comparisons with home ownership with other nations... lets see where we are at with the rest of the western world.
Start of with the G8 see how we compare.

[plague]

Interesting how workplace relations reform is still being talked about. How ****ing greedy can these khunts get

Yeah. Heaven forbid bosses should get what they pay for.
I'm sure next time you order 4 beers at a Jets game and they only give you 3 you'd walk away without a problem.
(Wait, getting less mid strength Carlton IS probably a good thing).

The whole workplace reform debate isn't just about productivity.

[The Dunster]

I never said negative gearing was fair/unfair. Saul eastlake mentions 82% of borrowings are for owner occupiers....pretty high % don't you think. Why dont you post some graphs with comparisons with home ownership with other nations... lets see where we are at with the rest of the western world.
Start of with the G8 see how we compare.

82% of borrowings are for owner occupiers would be pretty high except for the fact that 100% could be achieved if Negative Gearing was culled.

[The Dunster]

Yeah. Heaven forbid bosses should get what they pay for.
I'm sure next time you order 4 beers at a Jets game and they only give you 3 you'd walk away without a problem.
(Wait, getting less mid strength Carlton IS probably a good thing).

The whole workplace reform debate isn't just about productivity.

I agree. It's about exploitation and a graph comparing incomes to productivity demonstrates it.

The reason I would receive three beers rather than four is because my non-capitalist share of income is growing at a much slower rate than the capitalist share of income.

The gap between the two series on the graph is essentially the difference between the value of total output and the wage share of income unable to purchase that output.

Again, great news for banks bad news for household balance sheets.

The microeconomics of the workplace is unsolvable and it is pointless even going there. The macroeconomics of the workplace though can easily be solved to benefit all parties.

[De-Champ]

You will never achieve 100% of owner occupiers. Not every one wants to own a home eg if you move away to another town to work for a few years, you may be happy to rent whilst away. You must have a short memory, negative gearing was abolished in the mid/late eighties, it worked such a treat that it was re-installed. (for want of a better word)

[plague]

I agree. It's about exploitation and a graph comparing incomes to productivity demonstrates it.

The reason I would receive three beers rather than four is because my non-capitalist share of income is growing at a much slower rate than the capitalist share of income.

The gap between the two series on the graph is essentially the difference between the value of total output and the wage share of income unable to purchase that output.

Again, great news for banks bad news for household balance sheets.

The microeconomics of the workplace is unsolvable and it is pointless even going there. The macroeconomics of the workplace though can easily be solved to benefit all parties.

Cool story bro.

My comment was more about unfair dismissal laws and the general double standards we display depending on which side of the transaction we are on at any particular time.
Cool graph though
Viva le revolution and all that comrade.

[My2BobsWorth]

This thread has gone to shit. Labor can produce a graph that points down and Lib will use the same figures and it will point up. The only thing that matters is that Kev can speak Mandarin

[The Dunster]

You will never achieve 100% of owner occupiers. Not every one wants to own a home eg if you move away to another town to work for a few years, you may be happy to rent whilst away. You must have a short memory, negative gearing was abolished in the mid/late eighties, it worked such a treat that it was re-installed. (for want of a better word)

It was abolished or brought back around 1987. And rents increased in Sydney and Perth and decreased everywhere else.

Pressure from the elites is what brought it back. Much like the current nazi like workplace relations reforms [Labour and Liberal] or the fiscal consolidation propoganda the financial services / banking industry as a whole are selling to the masses.

Edit: Estimates of the cost of negative gearing upon the public purse range from around 30 to 35 billion dollars a year. That's a lot of money for health care, education ... you name it.

[The Dunster]

Cool story bro.

My comment was more about unfair dismissal laws and the general double standards we display depending on which side of the transaction we are on at any particular time.
Cool graph though
Viva le revolution and all that comrade.

I understood what you were talking about.

Given that productivty is growing faster than real wages it would appear conclusive that workers need more power not less in the bargaining process, or indeed in being retained in employment.

Obviously, there are cases where the employers gets screwed. But in aggregate the data suggests that the employers are winning by a considerable margin.

Maybe this will make more sense:

A CEO of a large corporation, a union representative, and a small business owner are sitting at a table.

A waitress places a plate containing 12 donuts on the table.

The CEO eats 11 of the donuts then turns to the small business owner and say's " keep an eye on that union guy he's about to eat you donut".


I hope this makes more sense than my previous posts.

[plague]

Maybe this will make more sense:

A CEO of a large corporation, a union representative, and a small business owner are sitting at a table.

A waitress places a plate containing 12 donuts on the table.

The CEO eats 11 of the donuts then turns to the small business owner and say's " keep an eye on that union guy he's about to eat you donut".


I hope this makes more sense than my previous posts.

ahhhhhhh yes, the old "All CEO bad, all small business owners are wannabe CEOs, all Union men here for the good of the worker" schtick.
I think its a tired old cliched and you are obviously too intelligent to even believe it.
Anyway, keep fighting the good fight comrade.

I'm with my2bobsworth though, any chance you can put together a graph on the correlation between Mardarin speaking Prime Ministers and relative wage growth in the last century?


ta

[The Dunster]

Good luck to both Rudd and Abbott with respect to threading a camel through the eye of a needle.:grin:

[Blackmac79]

Anyone keen for a riot next Sunday if anyone bar Clive palmer ends up prime minister?

[plague]

Anyone keen for a riot next Sunday if anyone bar Clive palmer ends up prime minister?

It would be an honour to lead the line with you Blackmac.

[My2BobsWorth]

This would require multi coloured chalk I suspect

[Thomas477]

Clive Palmer looking likeily to win a seat.

FFS.

[plague]

Team Labor after their All Age Grand Final today:
"well, you know, we got beat 12-5 today, but geez how awesome were those 5 goals".

[furns]

Clive Palmer looking likeily to win a seat.

FFS.Clive and Katter plus Abbott is going to keep comedians in jobs for the next three years at least

Assuming Katter wins, which isnt a sure thing.

[pv4]

Above the line voting for Palmer United :cool:

[seldom]

Anyone keen for a riot next Sunday if anyone bar Clive palmer ends up prime minister?

Where do we meet ?

[plague]

Above the line voting for Palmer United :cool:

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200901/r331745_1496920.jpg

we done it

[slobsy]

Don't blame me, I voted for GVE

[Retro Jet]

Found this on an SBS link:-

What Abbott has promised (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/09/08/what-abbott-has-promised-government)

Scroll down to
In First Term

*Locate a Commonwealth agency in Gosford CBD :fright:

Liberal voter fail right there!

[militiamon]

lol, how's old mate getting elected to the Senate for 6 years on the basis of the donkey vote/the illiterate.
Must feel like king of the world right now.

[northern_swan]

Found this on an SBS link:-

What Abbott has promised (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/09/08/what-abbott-has-promised-government)

Scroll down to
In First Term

*Locate a Commonwealth agency in Gosford CBD :fright:

Liberal voter fail right there!

Swinging seat gets the spend. Same way they got $hittongue

[plague]

Wow, the Libs have certainly gotten straight down to business.
In the first 2 weeks:
- Women have been put in their place and reminded that they are not worthy of being in charge of anything, except foreign affairs and that's pretty much just flirting with other countries bosses.
- climate change has been stopped dead and if we don't get our shit together and burn some more stuff we'll all freeze over (or something).
- no more boats (well, no more telling us if any boats turned up).
- Barnaby Joyce in charge of stuff. Great success.

[Bon]

Bump..

Anyone else following the feeds on ICAC today?
Very interesting stuff coming out..

[belchardo]

yep. comedy gold.

haven't checked in for a while...brb (was there a "brb" emoticon in pre-crash foz?)

[belchardo]

damn, didn't realise they'd finished up for the day.

can I get a job at ICAC? the 10am to 3pm work days must be awesome.

[q-money]

brown paper bags ffs

[GazFish35]

damn, didn't realise they'd finished up for the day.

can I get a job at ICAC? the 10am to 3pm work days must be awesome.

They'll finish at noon tomorrow. It's POETS day.

[plague]

Swansea member bites the dust, he only got about $2k out of Mcloy.
Pissant effort IMHO.

[Bon]

Swansea member bites the dust, he only got about $2k out of Mcloy.
Pissant effort IMHO.

As McCloy said, it was whatever was in his wallet at the time.. haha

[Blackmac79]

Remind me to rob Mcloy next time he is in town.

Small change is all I need.

[plague]

As McCloy said, it was whatever was in his wallet at the time.. haha

Brilliant.
Hes the only Newy boy left with enough awesomeness to be worthy of owning the Jets.
Perfect fit.

make it happen Jeff.

[Bon]

Brilliant stuff.. This game will get me through the working day..
Just watch out for an incoming Clive Palmer on the Titanic.. hahahahaha

http://www.abbottsimulator.com/

[Thomas477]

Bump.

Anyone following the Lord Mayor election?

[goaliepersempre]

going to backwards yet again RIP Newy

[sammydog]

Glad I don't live in the basket case of an LGA that is NCC. They will be run into the ground financially after this result.

I just hope LMCC and NCC never merge.

[plague]

I just hope LMCC and NCC never merge.

Damn straight homey. Newy boys will be funding all your povo asses.
The only thing LMCC is good for is providing a buffer between Gods country and the Gypo filth.
Ta for that.

[Footyhead]

"povo"... are you fkkn jokin ? LMCC shits all over NCC in so many ways it ain't funny. Fkkn basketcase Council. The ONLY thing good EVER to happen to NCC is Jeff McCloy being Mayor and now he's gone guaranteed to go backwards warp speed. As if what's ICAC's been into has never happened before. It's been happening all over the country since govt existed. Fkkn narrowminded diks.

[Thomas477]

going to backwards yet again RIP Newy

Pretty much, incredibly disappointed in this result.

First ****ing thing out of Nelmes' mouth was a state issue. Ffs.

[plague]

"povo"... are you fkkn jokin ? LMCC shits all over NCC in so many ways it ain't funny.
How so, kind sir?

[plague]

D
As if what's ICAC's been into has never happened before. It's been happening all over the country since govt existed.

Straight gospel right here. Sadly the comrades at state level outlawed these practices a few years back.
The state lib lads did the wrong thing, they know it.
Hopefully one day we'll hold trade unions and the Catholic Church to similar standards.
One can dream.

[sammydog]

Pretty much, incredibly disappointed in this result.

First ****ing thing out of Nelmes' mouth was a state issue. Ffs.

This, unfortunately most of the candidates were sprouting either state or federal issues as election platforms. This is why most councils struggle.

Nelmes platform though seems to be to spend, spend, spend. I can tell you after working in local government for 12 years that, that cash will come out of something or the council will have to borrow more.

Not my LGA though, so I will sit back with the popcorn and watch the hilarity as the basket case continues. Sad thing is, of all the platforms I heard, I am glad I wasn't voting in there as it all seemed to be rubbish from the lot. More badmouthing other candidates than pushing issues, straight from the Abbott Govt school of politics.

[goaliepersempre]

the big thing is developers can donate to fed but not state... But there are no provisions on how much unions can donate...

and the figures involved has been laughable..


oh well back to the basket case that is newcastle council and nelmes......

[plague]

This, unfortunately most of the candidates were sprouting either state or federal issues as election platforms. This is why most councils struggle.


Politics at all levels is a popularity contest (cc K.Rudd).
Gone are the days when people begrudgingly voted for your Keatings and your Howard's cause at least they got some real shit done.
Yanks are even voting republican again, that's how bad Obama has cocked things up within 6 years.

[MFKS]

the big thing is developers can donate to fed but not state... But there are no provisions on how much unions can donate...

and the figures involved has been laughable..


oh well back to the basket case that is newcastle council and nelmes......

Whilst anyone can donate to a political party the thing is corrupt to the core.

A business donates money to a political party and the favour can easily be returned by a decision to implement/not implement something or the reduction of a tax by 0.05% and the bribe can be repaid 1000 times over and the this is considered legit.

You try slipping some bureaucrat a couple of bucks to get something fast tracked that they were gonna do anyway but in there own time and you are a criminal and going to jail.

Yet the streets are full of thugs drug dealers and thieves

Go Figure

[Buddha]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FlcngdW2Ju4

[The Dunster]

Politics at all levels is a popularity contest (cc K.Rudd).
Gone are the days when people begrudgingly voted for your Keatings and your Howard's cause at least they got some real shit done.
Yanks are even voting republican again, that's how bad Obama has cocked things up within 6 years.

People are too stupid to know any better.

Example: Which would be better for the economy?

The Abbott government running a budget surplus equal to 5% of GDP; or

The non government sector running a deficit equal to 5% of GDP ?

Anyone that actually thinks one proposition is better than the other should kill themselves now as the two components must always sum to zero.

The coalition do not understand this and neither do Labour or the Greens.

At the G20 Abbott has abandoned Liberalism for mercantilism. He want more growth and more jobs. yet at the same time he wants to cut spending. ?

Problem. National accounting identities do not lie and as such spending is always equal to income [Consumption + Investment + Government Spending = Income]

Hence by the above identity and holding all components equal Abbott thinks that by reducing government spending income will rise.

Unless the rules of arithmetic have changed since I did my PhD I think this khunt has entirely lost the plot.

Lucky for him Bill Shorten is too stupid to have even noticed that Abbotts statements are incorrect.

[plague]

People are too stupid to know any better.

Example: Which would be better for the economy?

The Abbott government running a budget surplus equal to 5% of GDP; or

The non government sector running a deficit equal to 5% of GDP ?

Anyone that actually thinks one proposition is better than the other should kill themselves now as the two components must always sum to zero.

The coalition do not understand this and neither do Labour or the Greens.

At the G20 Abbott has abandoned Liberalism for mercantilism. He want more growth and more jobs. yet at the same time he wants to cut spending. ?

Problem. National accounting identities do not lie and as such spending is always equal to income [Consumption + Investment + Government Spending = Income]

Hence by the above identity and holding all components equal Abbott thinks that by reducing government spending income will rise.

Unless the rules of arithmetic have changed since I did my PhD I think this khunt has entirely lost the plot.

Lucky for him Bill Shorten is too stupid to have even noticed that Abbotts statements are incorrect.

If it is so easy you should run for office. Set the country straight*



* I'll prob still vote for whoever does the wackiest radio stunt with Kyle and Jackie O though soz Dunster.

[Thomas477]

This, unfortunately most of the candidates were sprouting either state or federal issues as election platforms. This is why most councils struggle.

I totally agree. Brad Luke wasn't. He seemed to be much more focused on local issues. But the upside to Nelmes becoming mayor, it opens up a spot in my ward. I'm seriously considering running. Could be good fun :woo:

[Skirt Boy]

Problem with modern politics is that we no longer have experienced people running for office.

You can virtually go through all the ranks of the parties and find that they filled with accountants and lawyers who were recruited by the political parties whilst in university. They then go and work for either a business group, union or the political party themselves. As a result they have zero experience on how the real world ****ing works.

Add to this, it's all about the party machine. And to hell with policy.

[The Dunster]

If it is so easy you should run for office. Set the country straight*

* I'll prob still vote for whoever does the wackiest radio stunt with Kyle and Jackie O though soz Dunster.

No thanks. I'm more than happy to sit back and watch the beast bleed itself to death.

[plague]

Glorious day.
**** the ABC.

[Premy]

Glorious day.
**** the ABC.
Haha hey Rupert.

All seriousness I lean left but ABC had it coming, $1.1b a year FFS they only have them self blame.
Tossers like Tony Jones getting paid $300,000+ p.a for 3hrs a week work.

SBS will be privately owned with in 5 year's.

[q-money]

so i guess tomorrow we can wake up to read the australian telling us how this is labors fault

[q-money]

SBS will be privately owned with in 5 year's.
wut

[plague]

SBS will be privately owned with in 5 year's.

Nah, just merge it in as a channel on da ABC.
If Mark Scott can't find 5% savings in the joint then he's the 2nd worst CEO going 'round.

[q-money]

listened to question time in the car home from footy last night, fmd what an absolute shamozzle

how long can the libs seriously keep up the same droning narrative? there will have to come a time when they stand on their own feet and can't blame their predecessors for the state the country is in.

[pv4]

I'm currently going through a bit of a soul search in terms of what i actually believe politics-wise. at one point in time i thought i liked liberal, at others not sure. I loved Clive Palmer sending me a Titanic DVD, and find myself easily persuaded by various promises of any politician.

Obviously Liberal have just lied on their promises, and done exactly what they said they wouldn't.

But my question is - just say Labour was re-elected, and not Liberal and Abbott, in that last election. What would Labour be doing right now - budget wise, policy wise? Would they be continually spending into debt, like Liberal say they did, and would we just be heading to some dreaded debt? And how bad truly is that debt that we were/are in? Isn't there a certain level of sustainable debt that most countries cruise in? I find politics to be very reactionary - a lot of the time parties will just argue against ideas of others, rather than for their own ideas. I feel like that is partly because Liberal AND Labour are both centre-right parties, as opposed to a true leftVright. If Labour were in charge, and didn't feel the need to argue against whatever Liberal were doing and could just do their own thing - what would they be doing, and how would that be going down?

[belchardo]

I have a fundamental problem with the "debt is bad" philosophy in both parties at the moment.

if I'm building an asset today that will last for say 100 years, it will generally outlast all but the newest babies, therefore future generations will be the beneficiaries of the asset. it therefore seems reasonable to me that the future generations help to pay for the asset, which can only be done through the raising of debt (with the future generations, including myself, into the future paying taxes to reduce the debt over time). it appears to me that neither party thinks it is reasonable (saddling our kids and grandkids with debt was a common theme in the past few elections).

I laugh (or is it cry?) whenever I hear the libs going on about debt and deficit while they are simultaneously saddling our kids and grandkids with the biggest liability imaginable - uncontrolled climate change.

[Blackmac79]

What happens when the Libs have nomore public assets to sell?

[The Dunster]

I have a fundamental problem with the "debt is bad" philosophy in both parties at the moment.

if I'm building an asset today that will last for say 100 years, it will generally outlast all but the newest babies, therefore future generations will be the beneficiaries of the asset. it therefore seems reasonable to me that the future generations help to pay for the asset, which can only be done through the raising of debt (with the future generations, including myself, into the future paying taxes to reduce the debt over time). it appears to me that neither party thinks it is reasonable (saddling our kids and grandkids with debt was a common theme in the past few elections).

I laugh (or is it cry?) whenever I hear the libs going on about debt and deficit while they are simultaneously saddling our kids and grandkids with the biggest liability imaginable - uncontrolled climate change.

Taxes do not fund government spending in a modern monetary economy where the government is the monopolist supplier of a fiat currency.

In other words the government does not have a budget constraint in terms of its own money.

The government can afford to build anything it wants as long as the costs are denominated in their own currency.

The constraint is only on the availability of goods and services denominated in that currency available for purchase.

Here is the reason why federal governments crap on so much about a surplus budget being a good thing:

If the non-government sector wishes to save then the government MUST have a Budget Deficit.

Hence, if the Government sector is in surplus then the non-goverment sector must be in deficit - No exceptions because Debits always equal credits under accrual accounting rules.

The reason why both major parties desire to run a surplus budget is because they want the private domestic sector to spend more than they earn.

Reason: For people to spend more than they earn they need to obtain credit -Hello Banks - Hello Bank share prices rising.

Both major parties are unfortunately captured by the financial sector in this country and that is why they seek to run a surplus.

Note also: If governments continually run surpluses then it is IMPOSSIBLE for the non-government sector to save because:

Government surplus = non-government deficit.

If you add an external account to the identity then it gets even worse as Australia has had a current account deficit throughout much of its existence due to the majority of our big players being foreign owned. THis is shown as the net income component in the National Accounts - and another reason why the so called mining boon was only of benefit to a selct few rather than the entire population as the Gina's and Andrews of this country try and tell us.

[Skirt Boy]

My view on a few things in dot point form.

1. A lot of the problems in the Australian economy at the moment was caused by the Liberal Government having a policy of dig baby dig at the expense of the rest of the economy. What this has meant is that many businesses who compete for labour have to raise wages to an unsustainable level to compete. This is a reason why infrastructure are so ****ing expensive because they generally use the same labour pool as the mining construction industry.

2. The Liberal government introduced some really ****ing stupid welfare payments. I'm from background where earning 40k makes you rich (well it used to) and you got nothing from the government. Now look at it.

3. Minimum wage is too high. What this has meant is that many former occupations have now become lifetime careers. Where as before a job at Coles, being a bartender or other historically low payed jobs were gateways to better employment, now they are fully fledged careers. Coincidently it's also a reason why youth unemployment is so high. Speaking to friends in Germany about how much they could earn simply working in a pub. They laughed and said we are ****ing idiots.

4. Due to OH&S, Union and business group nepotism workforce entry requirements are a ****ing joke. Just go through a job add and look at the "additional" certificates/cards required. Even for ****ing mundane low skilled jobs.

5. We are a ****ing nanny state. Too many people, especially unelected people are decision makers.

6. There is too much tax concessions for big business and things like negative gearing.

7. GST is too low.

8. University education is too expensive.

9. Our property market is ****ing way over priced and due for a major correction or a complete collapse into a pile of shit.

10. Our electoral system is prone to pork barrelling. That NSW government announcement yesterday is a good example. 20 billion for Sydney and what does Newcastle/Hunter get?

11. Due to historically having government owned monopolies, once privatised prices go to commercial rates but there is still no competition.

12. Coles/Woolworths

13. Just look at us. Look at how rich we are compared to other nations. Then look at our shit poor public transportation, roads and other shit.

[The Dunster]

My view on a few things in dot point form.

1. A lot of the problems in the Australian economy at the moment was caused by the Liberal Government having a policy of dig baby dig at the expense of the rest of the economy. What this has meant is that many businesses who compete for labour have to raise wages to an unsustainable level to compete. This is a reason why infrastructure are so ****ing expensive because they generally use the same labour pool as the mining construction industry.

2. The Liberal government introduced some really ****ing stupid welfare payments. I'm from background where earning 40k makes you rich (well it used to) and you got nothing from the government. Now look at it.

3. Minimum wage is too high. What this has meant is that many former occupations have now become lifetime careers. Where as before a job at Coles, being a bartender or other historically low payed jobs were gateways to better employment, now they are fully fledged careers. Coincidently it's also a reason why youth unemployment is so high. Speaking to friends in Germany about how much they could earn simply working in a pub. They laughed and said we are ****ing idiots.

4. Due to OH&S, Union and business group nepotism workforce entry requirements are a ****ing joke. Just go through a job add and look at the "additional" certificates/cards required. Even for ****ing mundane low skilled jobs.

5. We are a ****ing nanny state. Too many people, especially unelected people are decision makers.

6. There is too much tax concessions for big business and things like negative gearing.

7. GST is too low.

8. University education is too expensive.

9. Our property market is ****ing way over priced and due for a major correction or a complete collapse into a pile of shit.

10. Our electoral system is prone to pork barrelling. That NSW government announcement yesterday is a good example. 20 billion for Sydney and what does Newcastle/Hunter get?

11. Due to historically having government owned monopolies, once privatised prices go to commercial rates but there is still no competition.

12. Coles/Woolworths

13. Just look at us. Look at how rich we are compared to other nations. Then look at our shit poor public transportation, roads and other shit.

14. The massive reduction in pics of hot chicks being posted to this forum by SB.

[Skirt Boy]

14. The massive reduction in pics of hot chicks being posted to this forum by SB.

You can partly blame Items 1, 3, 4 and 5 for the state of affairs.

[The Dunster]

SB. There is absolutely no legitimate empirical studies to suggest minimum wage increases reduce unemployment. However, there are studies that have shown a rise in the minimum wage has lead to increases in employment,

To show that an increase in the minimum wage leads to job losses in aggregate you need to set the income elasticity's of demand to infinitely small quantities and the elasticity of demand for labour to a value greater than unity.

Unfortunately, to keep the Ne0-Liberal dream alive their studies assume, rather than estimate, the income elasticity and the demand elasticity's in the very manner described above.

[Skirt Boy]

SB. There is absolutely no legitimate empirical studies to suggest minimum wage increases reduce unemployment. However, there are studies that have shown a rise in the minimum wage has lead to increases in employment,

To show that an increase in the minimum wage leads to job losses in aggregate you need to set the income elasticity's of demand to infinitely small quantities and the elasticity of demand for labour to a value greater than unity.

Unfortunately, to keep the Ne0-Liberal dream alive their studies assume, rather than estimate, the income elasticity and the demand elasticity's in the very manner described above.

The point I'm making about the minimum wage is that the effects it has on housing affordability, youth unemployment and wage pressures are quite negative.

The minimum wage should not be at a level that enables a person to live comfortable for the rest of their life. It should provide enough security for a SINGLE person with basic accommodation, transportation, utilities and food and at least one night a week on the booze. Nothing more. If people wish to have a better quality of life then they have to find better employment.

We complain about skills shortages in a lot of sectors. 457 visas issues ect. I wonder why? Because there is no incentive now to up skill and chase these positions. Why bust your arse for 4 years in a trade/degree when an unskilled minimum wage position can a decent standard of living?

If there was one thing I noticed in Germany in my year there was how much younger retail and hospitality staff were. (In my part of Germany anyway). Youth/young unemployment here in Australia is shocking and I do think this is something hat needs to be looked at.

[plague]

What happens when the Libs have nomore public assets to sell?

build more assets.

[plague]

if I'm building an asset today that will last for say 100 years, it will generally outlast all but the newest babies, therefore future generations will be the beneficiaries of the asset. it therefore seems reasonable to me that the future generations help to pay for the asset, which can only be done through the raising of debt (with the future generations, including myself, into the future paying taxes to reduce the debt over time). it appears to me that neither party thinks it is reasonable (saddling our kids and grandkids with debt was a common theme in the past few elections).
Simple: Political cycles only go for 3-4 years. By the time any of these big decisions come to fruition the govts responsible will be well out of office. As discussed many times by many different people on here, its a popularity contest. No one looks big picture.


I laugh (or is it cry?) whenever I hear the libs going on about debt and deficit while they are simultaneously saddling our kids and grandkids with the biggest liability imaginable - uncontrolled climate change.
Nah, that would be China/India and USA messing yo kids futures up.

[plague]

Reason: For people to spend more than they earn they need to obtain credit -Hello Banks - Hello Bank share prices rising.

Both major parties are unfortunately captured by the financial sector in this country

in defense of the obsession with the banking industry, one of the quickest way to "grow" an economy is through the financial sector.
massively generalising the process but pretty much for every dollar a bank has they can then re-lend a certain multiple of that amount (accounting nerdz please correct). i think it was between $7 and $9 for every dollar held. Its (one of) the reason why your Hong Kongs/Englands and Switzerland etc have desirable economies without having the usual assets like natural resources etc.
now, if the banks are allowed to control too much of their destiny then they expand to the point of bursting ('sup USA) so Dunster is right (as usual) to say the obsession is dangerous. Especially when it seems like Pollies these days are easily brought/swayed.
a tightly controlled strong financial sector is a great thing, having a bunch of retards controlling it is scary.

again, pls and sorry for for generalising, this area is not my specialty which is why i love reading Dunsters detailed posts.

[plague]

8. University education is too expensive.


some students need to get a grip.
considering your tradies and entrepreneurs get sweet **** all assistance to get their careers started its a miracle we ever get anything done round ere.
if you think that arts degrees are more important for the future if our country than concreters and small business owners then you need to get out more.

[Skirt Boy]

some students need to get a grip.
considering your tradies and entrepreneurs get sweet **** all assistance to get their careers started its a miracle we ever get anything done round ere.
if you think that arts degrees are more important for the future if our country than concreters and small business owners then you need to get out more.

I already have a trade. (Boilermaker) :)

The argument that university graduates make more money so they should pay me. Fair enough argument but they also if they are earning more money are paying more taxes anyway.

[plague]

I already have a trade. (Boilermaker) :)

The argument that university graduates make more money so they should pay me. Fair enough argument but they also if they are earning more money are paying more taxes anyway.

there are plenty of sparkies, fitters, plumbers etc that wouldnt get out of bed for the average uni grad wage at the moment.
I actually think the HECS scheme is great. the smarter the workforce the better it is for all (esp when they are really only repaying about 40-50% of the real cost of their degree yeah? (supernerdz pls confirm)
but i just wish there was a HECS scheme for tradies and for small business owners too tis all.
it just grates on me that students are always crying poor about the cost of education when they dont seem to have any comprehension of the way the world works.

[Skirt Boy]

there are plenty of sparkies, fitters, plumbers etc that wouldnt get out of bed for the average uni grad wage at the moment.
I actually think the HECS scheme is great. the smarter the workforce the better it is for all (esp when they are really only repaying about 40-50% of the real cost of their degree yeah? (supernerdz pls confirm)
but i just wish there was a HECS scheme for tradies and for small business owners too tis all.
it just grates on me that students are always crying poor about the cost of education when they dont seem to have any comprehension of the way the world works.

When I did my apprenticeship it was about 300 bucks a year at TAFE...........Company paid for it.

[The Dunster]

in defense of the obsession with the banking industry, one of the quickest way to "grow" an economy is through the financial sector.
massively generalising the process but pretty much for every dollar a bank has they can then re-lend a certain multiple of that amount (accounting nerdz please correct). i think it was between $7 and $9 for every dollar held.

The quickest way to grow an economy with floating exchange rates and a soverign currency is via fiscal policy. Monetary policy is rarely desirable when exchange rates are floating, interest rates are exogenously determined ,and the money supply is endogenously determined by the banking sector.

The only truly fair interest rate is zero % as anything else will favour some and disadvantage others

With respect to Banks and loans.

The notion of a money multiplier is an artifact of undergraduate economics textbooks and more ideologically driven neo-liberal garbage.

In a modern de regulated banking system with fiat currencies and floating exchange rates loans create deposits not the other way around.

To make loans all banks require is credit worthy borrowers. There is no need to hold reserves they simply borrow them when they need them.

[furns]

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/dec/05/senate-gives-scott-morrison-unchecked-control-over-asylum-seekers-lives

Wow.
Just remember Australia - you voted for these asshats.

[plague]

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/dec/05/senate-gives-scott-morrison-unchecked-control-over-asylum-seekers-lives

Wow.
Just remember Australia - you voted for these asshats.

I dunno, I'd prob rather him in charge than the other clowns who let all those other 1000 odd die at sea innit?

Just remember the Guardian = Daily Telegraph depending on which side of the fence you're on.

[Skirt Boy]

No Australian politics but a truly global political event.


Bodo Ramelow ist der erste linke Ministerpräsident

Erfurt. Bodo Ramelow ist der erste linke Ministerpräsident in der Geschichte der Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

http://www.thueringer-allgemeine.de/startseite/detail/-/specific/Bodo-Ramelow-ist-der-erste-linke-Ministerpraesident-1184902312

Basically in English.

Bodo Ramelow has been elected as the Prime Minister of Thuringia. The first person from the party Die Linke which is a sucessor to the old SED (Communists of East Germany)

[goaliepersempre]

Nutjob NCC Council, now wanting the heavy rail line to stay.... short term vote thinking... not long term progression of the city..... FFS newcastle in general have there heads so far up there arses its not funny........ Such a small world syndrom....

[plague]

Nutjob NCC Council, now wanting the heavy rail line to stay.... short term vote thinking... not long term progression of the city..... FFS newcastle in general have there heads so far up there arses its not funny........ Such a small world syndrom....

ok ill ask.
why do you want the rail line gone?
please explain.

[Buddha]

I don't care either way, I don't use it all that often in fact rarely, but it would be a shame for others that did use it who live in say Muswellbrook but work in town

[goaliepersempre]

Look at the development of the honeysuckle area it has improved from previous woolsheds.... you have 4/6 rail lines heading down a corridor for an area that makes no sense for such trains....

My personal oppionion for the whole thing is make a hub for sydney and hunter trains in the hamilton area with a light rail service running into town...

I currently live in switzerland and have travelled quite alot the world.... a main hub in hamilton (area) at a potential part of where a high speed terminal could be would be the way to go....


the entire area can be revitalised parks, buildings, social area that makes it inviting to come to newcastle... We have a new economy to build if we just keep going as is... more buildings for the people that want to keep the old ones will lay dormant and then will cost even more to renovate etc etc etc.....


I grew up in muswellbrook and caught the train into newcastle on the occasion.... For me i would see no problem having to change train and jump in another... thats what public transport is, not door to door same car service...

with the potential of light rail in the city it could take one potentially closer to where you actually want to go.....


The biggest issue would be timetabling... which in this case for the light rail should not be the train runs at this time this this time but always every 10/15 mins. forwards backwards all day long...


Also for ye green people the train that comes from muswellbrook is a diesel engine... it would reduce the amount of fumes within that area too :P


this hasn't been collated and written in a proper response, just a few info ideas thrown together... whilst being bored in a pathology lecture...


If needed will respond next time with more developed answer...

[sammydog]

I've got no issue with the rail being removed, intact I think its a positive if done right.

But, its not being done right.

It shouldn't be removed until the light rail is planned, and implemented. The light rail needs to run between the uni and the CBD as a minimum with the options to add in more suburbs in the future. I also don't think where they are cutting the line is the appropriate place. The interchange needs to be in either Broadmeadow or even better the Junction near warabrook would be more appropriate.

Having an interchange in itself shouldn't pose a major issue to people moving from heavy to light rail, but again you need a good interchange to make it work. In Europe there is many examples of transport interchanges where going from one mode to another of transport is an effortless and seamless process. What I have seen of the plans here fall well short.

The problem we have is that the transport being implemented to replace the heavy rail, is being done half arsed. This could be done right and and would be a massive improvement on what we have, but its not being planned properly.

[plague]

I've got no issue with the rail being removed, intact I think its a positive if done right.

But, its not being done right.

The problem we have is that the transport being implemented to replace the heavy rail, is being done half arsed. This could be done right and and would be a massive improvement on what we have, but its not being planned properly.

exactly. why spend millions and millions on replacing a train with a train?
seems a bit daft.

[goaliepersempre]

But its a start!!!! things can then be adapted appropriatly... if we keep the discussion oh its not the optimal, oh but what this this this.... we will have the same infrastructure in 70 years...


Look at the basket case that is public transport in Sydney... Something should have been done 10-20-30 years ago but nothing... discussion was always no we should do it like this what about this....


We should just stick with the now decision and work with it.... nothing can be perfect....


Hell even the design of hunter stadium in areas are crap... but it got done....

[sammydog]

I disagree, the problem is, once the rail is cut and we get the half arsed solution, we are never going to see the funds to build it to an efficient public transport system.

Look at the Newcastle Inner City Bypass, how long has this taken to complete since the first stage at uni commenced (without factoring in when the road was originally planned). After the initial replacement for the rail we will see no improvement to the public transport which is why it needs to be don properly the first time.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see the rail cut. It needs to go and I even have no issue with controlled development on some of the existing corridor (particularly to the western ends). But the way it is being done is piecemeal at best and is going to see a very poor outcome. They haven't even effectively planned the replacement busses and timetables for when the line is cut in a few weeks. This detail should be thought out well in advance of cutting the rail, not cut first work out the details later.

This is a huge opportunity for newcastle that is rapidly becoming an opportunity lost.

[goaliepersempre]

but its also an opportunity lost if we dont do anything for another 5-10 years... short term pain long term gain.

[sammydog]

Don't kid yourself that this will get upgraded on the short to medium term (or even long term) once the rail is cut.

Once the money allocated to the project from the port sell off is spent, that's all we are getting. Newcastle will never be as valuable to politicians as that other regional centre, western Sydney.

To be honest, it wouldn't take 5-10 years to an a proper solution if the will was there. There isn't and while I want the rail gone I do question the govt's motives for doing so. They aren't coming back in the future to expand the light rail. What we get is what we get and its selling us short.

[Skirt Boy]

Don't kid yourself that this will get upgraded on the short to medium term (or even long term) once the rail is cut.

Once the money allocated to the project from the port sell off is spent, that's all we are getting. Newcastle will never be as valuable to politicians as that other regional centre, western Sydney.

To be honest, it wouldn't take 5-10 years to an a proper solution if the will was there. There isn't and while I want the rail gone I do question the govt's motives for doing so. They aren't coming back in the future to expand the light rail. What we get is what we get and its selling us short.

Rail line needs to stay.

Services need to be restored to Cessnock, extended to Taree and frequencies increased to 15 minutes from all directions.

I'll do a proper proposal this afternoon

[sammydog]

I couldn't agree more with restoring Cessnock and to a lesser extent extending to Taree. Public transport in this area, if you want to go anywhere other than Newcastle LGA and the north and eastern parts of Lake Mac, is shite. Even getting a bus around town takes 10 years to get from point A to point B.

Where we would differ is I would then prefer them to run to a central hub (Broadmeadow or Warabrook) from which light rail and bus runs into the suburbs and city.

The way I see it though, what we are getting is the worst option. I'd prefer the rail stay to what is proposed.

[northern_swan]

I'm in the cut the line camp

BUT...

I'll throw it out there and say that I think the fernleigh track is the biggest waste of money in the history of newy. Should be a tram line ffs. Run another to Wallsend via uni, the nock via maitland and Kurri and from the truncation point (Broadmeadow or Woodville Junction) through newy to port stephens and the airport.

If you're gonna do a job, do it properly ffs

[Skirt Boy]

Skirt Boys Urban Planning brought to you by the Bauhaus University.


1. Restore Heavy rail to Cessnock and Minmi and extend services to Taree.

2. Restore the "Minmi-Cessnock Circle to open the area for the expansion of Newcastle towards Cessnock/Maitland.

4. Heavy Rail to Nelson Bay via Raymond Terrace, Airport, Medowie

3. Depending on factors. The line to Belmont should be rebuilt and extended to Swansea. Preferably heavy rail but light rail will suffice.

4. Light rail/trams to Merewether via the old Burwood line. Light rail to Charlestown via the old Gully Line. Light rail to Killingworth via Uni/wallsend/West Wallsend

5. High Speed ferry services in Lake Macquarie.

6. Scrap the existing bus network. From each heavy rail station have smaller radial networks to the surrounding areas. Only maintain bus services to Newcastle where it's not feasible to build rail.

7. Heavy rail services to be run every 5 minutes in the peak from Cessnock, Maitland, Morriset and Nelson Bay. 30 Minutes from Taree, Scone, Gosford.

8. Light rail to run every 10 minutes.

9. Bus network to run every 10 minutes.

10. Put a competitive tender out for the construction and operation of the the Newcastle United Transport Services. Corporate branding to be Green, Brown and White.

11. As opposed to ticketing. A levy is applied to each household on a the number of people resident. For people not residing within the area of Service of NUTS single day tickets for $10.00 can be purchased from machines or ticket inspectors on board services.

[De-Champ]

A better solution is to move the entire city of Newcastle to.......

[The Dunster]

The state government have not set aside any funding for light rail in Newcastle.

Therefore, at this stage of the game any talk from politicians about light rail is little more than a lie.

The only problem with railways is decreasing returns to scale. In other words, the larger the network becomes the less efficient it will be.

This is why the beancounter types hate railways.

[Skirt Boy]

And this is one of the big problems in this country. Even government services need to be profitable instead of simply being a service.

[sammydog]

A better solution is to move the entire city of Newcastle to.......

Actually, that is a very legitimate question.

Should we be focussed on the newcastle CBD as the focal point for Newcastle and the Hunter business or is revitalising it akin to pushing shit up hill?

[MFKS]

And this is one of the big problems in this country. Even government services need to be profitable instead of simply being a service.
Since we pay $$$ in tax shouldn't these dimwits provide the services we require as a society and then just charge us accordingly as opposed to this way of thinking where spending money on community services is deemed as some type of imposition on the government having to pay for it??

[goaliepersempre]

tax goes to federal......

but im pissed of is that people are getting so vocal about the current government not doing anything... when more has been done project wise in this state then in the previous 10-20 years......

allegiances aside...

[plague]

And this is one of the big problems in this country. Even government services need to be profitable instead of simply being a service.

The sadder part is that the reason why govt services are generally so poorly run is because they are run by governments.

[plague]

Actually, that is a very legitimate question.

Should we be focussed on the newcastle CBD as the focal point for Newcastle and the Hunter business or is revitalising it akin to pushing shit up hill?

Well now that we are stopping people getting to the CBD and capping building heights so no one can come live here anyway, we may as well throw a match on it and start again.

[The Dunster]

The sadder part is that the reason why govt services are generally so poorly run is because they are run by governments.

That's an ideological perspective which numerous empirical studies have proven to be false.

The biggest creators or red tape and compliance are the private sector not governments.

Joe Hockey found this out the hard way when he commissioned a report into productivity in Australia using Deloitte [Chris Richardson and friends].

The report was released at the end of October 2014 and anyone wanting to register at http://www2.deloitte.com/au/en/pages/building-lucky-country/articles/get-out-of-your-own-way.html can have a good laugh at neo-liberal ideology chocking itself to death.


by laying down the law – imposing rules on ourselves – in areas as diverse as human resources (HR), information technology (IT), finance, legal, marketing and executive governance.

The time required for employees to comply with self-imposed rules has become a crippling burden. Middle managers and senior executives are chalking up 8.9 hours a week complying with the rules corporates set for themselves, with other staff spending 6.4 hours.

Estimates suggest that reducing this self imposed compliance would add around 1.6% to GDP.

The biggest problem with neo-liberals in general is that they build models based on ideological assumptions rather than facts and then wonder why they tie themselves in knots.

[plague]

That's an ideological perspective which numerous empirical studies have proven to be false.

The biggest creators or red tape and compliance are the private sector not governments.

Joe Hockey found this out the hard way when he commissioned a report into productivity in Australia using Deloitte [Chris Richardson and friends].

The report was released at the end of October 2014 and anyone wanting to register at http://www2.deloitte.com/au/en/pages/building-lucky-country/articles/get-out-of-your-own-way.html can have a good laugh at neo-liberal ideology chocking itself to death.



Estimates suggest that reducing this self imposed compliance would add around 1.6% to GDP.

The biggest problem with neo-liberals in general is that they build models based on ideological assumptions rather than facts and then wonder why they tie themselves in knots.

Ha ha, keep believing that.
Or you could own your own business and see first hand some of the ridiculous shit you need to go through.

What governments (of all persuasions) lack sometimes is some common sense because they tend to be full of people with lots of experience reading studies and not many with any practical experience in the field.

As for red tape, we live in litigious society. When law makers (governments) allow us to waltz through life with zero personal accountability then it's a constant battle for everyone to cover their own asses every step of the way.

So yeah, in a big way governments contribute to the mess.

[The Dunster]

Ha ha, keep believing that.
Or you could own your own business and see first hand some of the ridiculous shit you need to go through.

What governments (of all persuasions) lack sometimes is some common sense because they tend to be full of people with lots of experience reading studies and not many with any practical experience in the field.

As for red tape, we live in litigious society. When law makers (governments) allow us to waltz through life with zero personal accountability then it's a constant battle for everyone to cover their own asses every step of the way.

So yeah, in a big way governments contribute to the mess.

I respect what you are saying Plague as it is a commonly held belief among many business types. But unfortunately the evidence suggests that our economy is ruled by oligarchy rather than democracy.

Governments are part of the problem but they are not the source of the problem.

Chicago School economist George Stigler in a 1971 paper titled "The Theory of Economic Regulation: suggested that governments do not create monopolies in industries by accident.

He argued that governments regulate at the behest of producers who “capture” the regulatory agency and use regulation to prevent competition.

This stance is pretty much universally accepted by both academics and business types - especially the small producers that are more efficient and yet unable to penetrate the market due to simply being too small.

Capture Theory is the raison d'etre for lobby groups. And if the recent events in NSW state politics haven't opened your eyes up to this nothing in the world would convince you otherwise.

Moreover, since Stigler's paper in 1971 businesses have sought to stifle competition not only external to their business but from within it as well via HR departments, micromanagement and so on.

The real victims though are small business as the lobby groups might pretend to be on the side of small business but the evidence to suggest otherwise is overwhelming both empirically and anecdotally.

[plague]

the evidence suggests that our economy is ruled by oligarchy rather than democracy.

Governments are part of the problem but they are not the source of the problem.

Chicago School economist George Stigler in a 1971 paper titled "The Theory of Economic Regulation: suggested that governments do not create monopolies in industries by accident.

He argued that governments regulate at the behest of producers who “capture” the regulatory agency and use regulation to prevent competition.

This stance is pretty much universally accepted by both academics and business types - especially the small producers that are more efficient and yet unable to penetrate the market due to simply being too small.

Capture Theory is the raison d'etre for lobby groups. And if the recent events in NSW state politics haven't opened your eyes up to this nothing in the world would convince you otherwise.

Moreover, since Stigler's paper in 1971 businesses have sought to stifle competition not only external to their business but from within it as well via HR departments, micromanagement and so on.

The real victims though are small business as the lobby groups might pretend to be on the side of small business but the evidence to suggest otherwise is overwhelming both empirically and anecdotally.

yeah agree on this but i think the root of all the problem is greed. like it or not 99.9% of the population is affected by it. governments are charged with trying to point the needle in the right place between giving people something to aspire to and to achieve their dreams, and making sure that the people above you dont block you achieving it. sadly there is no real perfect position. different viewpoints all think that the power should lie with the employer, the employee, or the govt itself. somewhere in the middle is prob the answer but good luck agreeing on it.
as for the pollies, corruption and the like were going on well before the latest batch. i gave up thinking pollies from either persuasion gave a toss long long long ago. sadly power corrupts people in all walks of life be they pollies, business leaders, sports stars or union officials.

oh and lobby groups......dont start me. a pox on all their houses.

[baldrick]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

[Buddha]

Not really politics related but if you haven't heard, Armed hold up in the Lindt Cafe in Martin Place by ISIS follower/Member

[Grimario]

Only reported as ISIS by everyone... turns out is not ISIS flag being shown.

Not that it matters, really.

****ing hell.

[Buddha]

It has been shown mate, they keep moving it from window to window.

And who said ISIS wasn't a real threat

[Grimario]

It has been shown mate, they keep moving it from window to window.

And who said ISIS wasn't a real threat

It's not an ISIS flag though.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=isis+flag&rlz=1C1CHKB_en-GBAU442AU442&oq=isis+flag&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l5.999j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

It's a Shahada flag.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=isis+flag&rlz=1C1CHKB_en-GBAU442AU442&oq=isis+flag&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l5.999j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=shahada+flag&spell=1

[Buddha]

It's not an ISIS flag though.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=isis+flag&rlz=1C1CHKB_en-GBAU442AU442&oq=isis+flag&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l5.999j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

It's a Shahada flag.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=isis+flag&rlz=1C1CHKB_en-GBAU442AU442&oq=isis+flag&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l5.999j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=shahada+flag&spell=1

Well spotted, still ****ed and should be killed

[plague]

It's times like these there should be a cooling off period before Pollies are allowed to speak.
Can only imagine the crap that's going to start coming out of the hippies and rednecks alike.

[Grimario]

Channel 9 have just asked a business owner in Martin Place "how much money will you lose today because of this?"

****ing hell.

[The Dunster]

Can't wait for Robert Dillon to link this to HSG and the Jets.

[MFKS]

Not really politics related but if you haven't heard, Armed hold up in the Lindt Cafe in Martin Place by ISIS follower/Member

It ain't me and I take offence to being associated with anything to do with going to a coffee shop. Rather go for a beer than sit around with hipster lefty clowns sipping lattes

Buddha you reckon you know where to find me come down and confirm it ain't me then cause you will know exactly where to find me :sparring:

[Buddha]

Why the **** are people bagging Abbott for not doing anything? It's all happened so quickly that he wouldn't even have had a chance to even think about it before a meeting would have been called, leave it to the Police to deal with it.

[pv4]

Why the **** are people bagging Abbott for not doing anything? It's all happened so quickly that he wouldn't even have had a chance to even think about it before a meeting would have been called, leave it to the Police to deal with it.

People seem too caught up in the whole movie fantasy that the Obama type figure is meant to sort all these things out.

I've seen somewhere that they have a picture of his face now. Surely this will draw to a close very soon.

[Buddha]

It ain't me and I take offence to being associated with anything to do with going to a coffee shop. Rather go for a beer than sit around with hipster lefty clowns sipping lattes

Buddha you reckon you know where to find me come down and confirm it ain't me then cause you will know exactly where to find me :sparring:
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

[Buddha]

People seem too caught up in the whole movie fantasy that the Obama type figure is meant to sort all these things out.

I've seen somewhere that they have a picture of his face now. Surely this will draw to a close very soon.


Let the TAC squad deal with this and don't give them anything, they want exposure, they want the PM to deal with it, don't let them, it's the typical terrorism play straight from the playbook

[The Dunster]

Let the TAC squad deal with this and don't give them anything, they want exposure, they want the PM to deal with it, don't let them, it's the typical terrorism play straight from the playbook

And yet we are all commenting about it on an open forum. The horse has already bolted.

[pv4]

And yet we are all commenting about it on an open forum. The horse has already bolted.

The very fact that the world found out about it mostly from a news site showing pictures of the hostages in the window - the situation was fxxxed from the start.

[Grimario]

It's directly across the road from C7 in Sydney... surely it's all about media exposure for them.

[Grimario]

In the space of 5 minutes...

"Man arrested, situation over, people now being released from Lindt Cafe"



"Man arrested nothing to do with events inside cafe, people being released are those that were in apartments above cafe, not actually in it"

[BodyNovo]

Channel 9 have just asked a business owner in Martin Place "how much money will you lose today because of this?"

****ing hell.

This is the most ****ed up thing of the morning

When I heard this I wanted to break the tv at work

Peoples lives are at stake and there asking about potential money lost

[plague]

It's Abbotts fault for making Australia such an awful place to exist that the only way to get ahead is to literally chop one off
(Bends over, sniffs fart).
Now, where was I?

[hawk]

Just give this flag wielding retard a blowup sexpig and a merry christmas card.

It would take Abbott a week to think of something by himself.

[Buddha]

The longer this draws on, the more idiots come out to have an opinion on this, best one yet was somebody convinced that this is just a conspiracy by the government to distract people from the budget

Good to know people care about those being held hostage

[plague]

The longer this draws on, the more idiots come out to have an opinion on this, best one yet was somebody convinced that this is just a conspiracy by the government to distract people from the budget

Good to know people care about those being held hostage

To be fair though, once we worked out that 9/11 was an inside job all bets were off as to what Givernments will do.

[plague]

Q-man knows this.

[Bremsstrahlung]

Live interview with an 'expert' on islamic/middle east/just back from Syria guy talking about the group.

Reasonable interview until he drops the "Well, as is the case with most of these hostage situations, they normally end in executions."
How the f*** is that allowed to be broadcast on national television.

[goaliepersempre]

woo brilliant from save our rail FFS..... this is disgusting.....

925

oh and the people rallying yesty hardly any from the area... one of the blokes is a god damn gypo....


anywho.... happy monday

[plague]

dear god, another stupid hashtag campaign.
that horseshit always makes me think of this lady.
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/19500000/2x05-Conjoined-Fetus-Lady-south-park-19547926-720-540.jpg

[Grimario]

Two dead plus the gunman. No affiliation with any ground, just a loner. Was on bail for over 40 counts of assault plus accessory to murder. Justice system at work!

[plague]

Was on bail for over 40 counts of assault plus accessory to murder. Justice system at work!

The first finger you point should be directed at racist shitcunce like Pat O'Shane then move down the line to the groups like the greens who make heros and sympathetic figures out of criminals just like this bloke.

But I guess that makes me a redneck doneit?

[MFKS]

The first finger you point should be directed at racist shitcunce like Pat O'Shane then move down the line to the groups like the greens who make heros and sympathetic figures out of criminals just like this bloke.

But I guess that makes me a redneck doneit?

The Judicial System needs a review when blokes like this are allowed to walk the streets.

The Decision Makers need removing due to their ineptness. How many cops standing around clocking up overtime all day taking the passive approach whilst someone breaks the law and spreads fear amongst the community. We have a war on terror going on and they chose to negotiate with this bloke?? WTF. Send the SAS in and finish the bloke by lunch time yesterday. No ****ing around with those who choose to create this situation at all. If there are innocent casualties so be it. Better to send a clear concise message what the consequences are and what will be tolerated to the next ****ing nutter thinking of doing something like this instead of giving the idiot his 15 mins of fame.

Also need to look at the left wing fruit loops who promote tolerance to these people yet seemingly are oblivious to the fact they would be the first to die at their hands due to their differing views on many subjects and the same clowns are the ones who stifle any serious debate on the subject by claiming racism because people are not happy to welcome people who wish to slaughter people for having differing religious views and have a variety of views that are incompatible with our society and way of life

[pv4]

I lost a little more faith in humanity when I saw all the pictures of people taking selfies at Martin Place.

But I gained a little more faith in humanity when I saw old bud being evacuated from his building mid-haircut :rof:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1908162_10204080029013468_6133000127082635346_n.jp g?oh=d6ffcdfe34a9be304bb933ec09b5a4be&oe=550A858A&__gda__=1426673370_98c0ee7678f20de53e1e9f6c8faabf6 4

[hawk]

Two dead plus the gunman. No affiliation with any ground, just a loner. Was on bail for over 40 counts of assault plus accessory to murder. Justice system at work!
Dont need an affiliation to act on a belief.

Come on, lets face it, at this point in time, this "loner" was acting primarily of the widely publcised world regime of islam hating other religions and there are quite a few others here that agree with him. I do applaud the greater Muslim community for their efforts to stop this idiot because they arent apart of this but the underlying regime is here to stay.
This just adds to adds to the many lunatic skips we already have.

[plague]

Have the Greens come out and blamed everyone else for this yet?

[q-money]

well no-one has blamed the greens yet, except you probably

[q-money]

Send the SAS in and finish the bloke by lunch time yesterday. No ****ing around with those who choose to create this situation at all. If there are innocent casualties so be it. Better to send a clear concise message what the consequences are and what will be tolerated to the next ****ing nutter thinking of doing something like this instead of giving the idiot his 15 mins of fame.
the ideology of these blokes hinges around a violent death though - either way you give them what they ultimately want.

i agree with you on the media stuff though, why play the videos he made people film - why give him an outlet. absolute muckraking shite.

[Buddha]

Ill tell you why you can't send in the SAS, because they are somewhere else ;)

But really that ideology is that of the United States, all guns blazing, more lives probably would have been lost had they done that, police weren't sure if the cafe was booby trapped but ultimately had no option once he shot one of the hostages. Too many people thinking this is just like the movies

[pv4]

Too many people thinking this is just like the movies

qft

[MFKS]

Have the Greens come out and blamed everyone else for this yet?

The Greens are aware their pro gay marriage stance is not in the way of thinking of this religion I take it??

Matter of fact this religion is a bit more interested in taking up the fight on this subject than Christians who just tell them to **** off.


Biggest bunch of loonys in the country and much more dangerous than Islam

[q-money]

last time i checked adam bandt wasn't holed up with a shotty in a cafe pal

[belchardo]

The Greens are aware their pro gay marriage stance is not in the way of thinking of this religion I take it??

Matter of fact this religion is a bit more interested in taking up the fight on this subject than Christians who just tell them to **** off.


Biggest bunch of loonys in the country and much more dangerous than Islam

here we go. FFS, islam is not the issue, people hide behind whatever flag they can grab. this guy was a psychopath, pure and simple, trying to dress his own issues up as a noble cause.

[MFKS]

Ill tell you why you can't send in the SAS, because they are somewhere else ;)

But really that ideology is that of the United States, all guns blazing, more lives probably would have been lost had they done that, police weren't sure if the cafe was booby trapped but ultimately had no option once he shot one of the hostages. Too many people thinking this is just like the movies

I fully understand this shit is real and not like the movies and the consequences are there if things go pair shaped.

Consequences have played out that 2 innocent people lost their lives as the authorities twiddled their thumbs for 14 hours instead of using a sniper to take the nut out on one of the occasions he stuck his head near the window.

The consequences have been created as soon as this nut walked into the coffee shop and done what he did. Fate determined those exposed to death and didn't choose those who had been in the shop on another day or earlier that morning. As soon as this happened their fate was up to the gods so to speak.

Really couldn't give a **** about the connotations of going it all guns blazing USA all the way style.

The way this thing has been handled is a ****ing disgrace.

The media have scared the shit out of the population with their wall to wall coverage. They have also gave untold levels of exposure to this idiot that other like minded idiots will now see it as a positive to doing something similar all the while the authorities have stood by with their heads up their arse and allowed the stance to be set that this country is a soft touch for dealing with these nuts.

As for the SAS being elsewhere in the world. Surely our military have some operatives still in the country capable of being summoned and dealing with shit like this??

Remember they get paid to deal with bullets whizzing about the place and do their thing


All that has happened is that is the first of what will be more issues in this country along those lines. We should have set a ****ing example of how Australia would respond and the example should have been telling to discourage it from happening again. Australia failed.

We will now pay the price

[MFKS]

here we go. FFS, islam is not the issue, people hide behind whatever flag they can grab. this guy was a psychopath, pure and simple, trying to dress his own issues up as a noble cause.

May wish to read that again. I think you will find I was having a go at the Greens rather than Islam :sup:

[Buddha]

Once again, Sniper can't just take him out as they couldn't be sure if he was rigged with explosives, you kill him it sets it off. Why do you think it dragged out for so long, too many variables to just launch an all out assault, in the end they were trying to preserve life and may God bless the souls of both those people who were taken, 2 is better than losing all of them.

You try and go in straight away without knowing the situation and you have more deaths, how were they to know the building wasn't rigged with explosives? Send in the TAC and the bloke blows up the building, and then you've got multiple deaths and its becomes an even bigger shit storm.

With my knowledge of these situations and the best time to strike, I'd dare say the TAC would have probably stormed the joint around sunrise anyway as that is the time you are at your most vunerable. They handled the situation as best as they could imo given the lack of knowledge they had.

[q-money]

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/sydney-siege-is-australias-september-11-moment-20141215-127znf.html

well here's some nonsense for you to read

"Sydney siege is Australia's September 11 moment"

it's a mental with a shotgun using a flag of convenience. why equate it to september 11. absolute trash.

[plague]

well no-one has blamed the greens yet, except you probably

Nah I don't blame the Greens.
I blame the nut job with a shotgun.

[plague]

As for snipers/SAS/John McClane, killing someone is a pretty serious and very traumatic thing (even if it is 'your job'). Those decisions are always perfect in hindsight.

[pv4]

Once again, Sniper can't just take him out as they couldn't be sure if he was rigged with explosives, you kill him it sets it off. Why do you think it dragged out for so long, too many variables to just launch an all out assault, in the end they were trying to preserve life and may God bless the souls of both those people who were taken, 2 is better than losing all of them.

You try and go in straight away without knowing the situation and you have more deaths, how were they to know the building wasn't rigged with explosives? Send in the TAC and the bloke blows up the building, and then you've got multiple deaths and its becomes an even bigger shit storm.

With my knowledge of these situations and the best time to strike, I'd dare say the TAC would have probably stormed the joint around sunrise anyway as that is the time you are at your most vunerable. They handled the situation as best as they could imo given the lack of knowledge they had.

Ray Hadley probably got a phone call from a hostages second cousin and could have told them exactly how to deal with it.

[Buddha]

As for snipers/SAS/John McClane, killing someone is a pretty serious and very traumatic thing (even if it is 'your job'). Those decisions are always perfect in hindsight.

Exactly, no matter how much you train, it's still one of the most mentally tough things to deal with.

[hawk]

Once again, Sniper can't just take him out as they couldn't be sure if he was rigged with explosives, you kill him it sets it off.

Geez there were a couple of good opportunities to take him out deer hunter style.

[hawk]

I
The media have scared the shit out of the population with their wall to wall coverage.

And to think koshy could have been one of the hostages

[MFKS]

As for snipers/SAS/John McClane, killing someone is a pretty serious and very traumatic thing (even if it is 'your job'). Those decisions are always perfect in hindsight.

It ain't hindsight cause 2 people died that makes me say this. I would not be bothered if more died.


The decision for all of them to be exposed to death was made by the nut putting them in this predicament not the rescue party going in after the nut.

That's right the NUT is responsible NO ONE ELSE

[q-money]

i thought the greens were responsible

[MFKS]

i thought the greens were responsible

Nah they are just a bigger threat to Australia than anything else.


Islam Ebola Gypos Global Warming and NRL players combined aren't even close to the Greens when it comes to potential destruction they can wreck on the fabric of Aussie society

[Jetmaster]

Too many "experts" out there when this stuff happens.

Really don't like how this situation became so big and how the media and Joe Public reacted to it. This is not the first siege in Australia and our greatest massacres have been by locals, but social media didn't exist then. Last night we were getting calls to storm Lakemba ffs. And now the PM is calling this a terrorist attack.

Today radio is asking everybody if they are alright - ffs, idiots that sat up all night like ghouls get no sympathy. Why we need to see and hear every minute detail and supposition from "experts" beats me. I watched it until I had seen the escape footage more than once. Quite simply the people who become emotionally affected by all this are the ones that can't drag their eyes from the TV.

The stuff on Fox News was laughable and patronising - "Australia is the US's best friend, wherever we go, they go !!"

A great tragedy, but somewhat like the Hughes accident it has been escalated to an event of immense size.

[MFKS]

Too many "experts" out there when this stuff happens.

Really don't like how this situation became so big and how the media and Joe Public reacted to it. This is not the first siege in Australia and our greatest massacres have been by locals, but social media didn't exist then. Last night we were getting calls to storm Lakemba ffs. And now the PM is calling this a terrorist attack.

Today radio is asking everybody if they are alright - ffs, idiots that sat up all night like ghouls get no sympathy. Why we need to see and hear every minute detail and supposition from "experts" beats me. I watched it until I had seen the escape footage more than once. Quite simply the people who become emotionally affected by all this are the ones that can't drag their eyes from the TV.

The stuff on Fox News was laughable and patronising - "Australia is the US's best friend, wherever we go, they go !!"

A great tragedy, but somewhat like the Hughes accident it has been escalated to an event of immense size.


Well said.

Why it is on TV 24-7 is a ****ing disgrace.

Don't give the nut any exposure at all and make him realise what he is that is an insignificant oxygen thief.


As for the PM I wonder how many questions that **** has answered on the Budget crisis today?? This nut has sure taken the focus/heat right off him

[hawk]

Too many "experts" out there when this stuff happens.

Really don't like how this situation became so big and how the media and Joe Public reacted to it. This is not the first siege in Australia and our greatest massacres have been by locals, but social media didn't exist then. Last night we were getting calls to storm Lakemba ffs. And now the PM is calling this a terrorist attack.


here we go, the past has done this so that makes this normal BS. Todays motivations is an ongoing dilemma. These so called one offs are happening regularly an are religion based. Accept it and it becomes clearer. Doesnt mean we have to do anything to anyone as the police are trying their best to stop the few crazies that are still trying this stuff on. Now there are other issues that we should be tackling full on like domestic violence and so on.

Just stay vigliant on all luntatics in an effort to reduce this stuff.

I do agree with the media and US stuff. Its a beat up we dont need.

[plague]

We need to stop this hashtag bullshit too. Just as embarrassing as the coverage itself.

[Grimario]

That's something I can get behind, plague.

#STOPTHEHASHTAGS

[MFKS]

NSW Police were right to try to negotiate with the gunman, according to a former senior police officer familiar with counter terrorism training.

"There is a very strong history that negotiations work and time does solve problems," said the former officer, who asked not to be named.

"The intention would have been to negotiate with him, to try to influence him.

"The longer it goes, the more chance you have got, there is decades of evidence that is the best way.

A sniper's rifle on the ground in Phillip Street during the Lindt cafe siege. Picture: Mark Metcalfe/Getty Images
A sniper's rifle on the ground in Phillip Street during the Lindt cafe siege. Picture: Mark Metcalfe/Getty Images

"Unfortunately, in this case the risk rose dramatically and unexpectedly."

He said police involved in the Lindt cafe siege "train, train, train" and would have had a number of contingency plans in place "shortly after" it started.

The first would have been "to do something quickly in response to a major threat".

"I would say from what I have seen (that) plan had to be activated, they have obviously decided to go because of something occurring.





See your ad here
"That something occurring was a shot being fired and the grave danger against the hostages."

He said if the gunman had in fact shot and killed a hostage, police had no choice but to go in.



Asked about a number of scenarios, including whether officers could have gone in though the roof to end the siege earlier, he said: "It depends on the access."

It was more likely they had a plan to enter covertly, perhaps though a fire exit or a back door.

Former NSW assistant commissioner Clive Small said going though the roof would "create a racket" and was not really an option.

"You are exposing yourself to gunfire and you're not in a position to fire back because you don't know where the hostages are."

Both Mr Small and the former officer were skeptical about theories the gunman could have been shot through the window.

NSW Premier Mike Baird (left) speaks as NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione looks on during a press conference about the siege in Martin Place, Sydney. Picture: Getty Images
NSW Premier Mike Baird (left) speaks as NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione looks on during a press conference about the siege in Martin Place, Sydney. Picture: Getty Images

Both said it appeared the gunman had shown himself early in the day, before snipers would have been in position and also before police were in possession of vital information, such as how many gunmen were in the café.

"It's a very dangerous thing to do, for a start you don't know what's going to happen to the projectile once it goes though the glass," said the former senior officer.

Asked who would have made the decision to go in, he said "the office of constable gives anyone (in the force) the power to make a decision if they feel a life is being threatened.

"More likely than not, it would have been a supervisor."

The supervisor could have been a member of the heavily armed team or could have been a short distance away communicating by radio.

Information gleaned from the escaped hostages would have also informed the thinking of police, as would the criminal history of the gunman, Man Haron Monis.

There may have also been electronic evidence via a listening device that also informed the decision.

Mr Small said he thought it was significant the gunman "had no escape route."

"It seems it was quite clear he had no plan on leaving there alive."



The former officer said the police involved were "very disciplined".

"They are as good as anyone in Australia, or the world for that matter."

Another former NSW assistant police commissioner Ken McKay, who retired last year after 35 years in the service, said it was evident the strategy had been to "wait it out" and monitor events inside through observation and negotiation.

Mr McKay, who headed the first NSW Police Middle Eastern Organised crime Squad, said: "The main aim is to get everyone out safely – and a lot of the time, that includes the offender." But he added that when gunfire suddenly sounded inside the cafe, "that immediately changes the game." In that instance…when police are suddenly forced to go from negotiating and containing to attack…everything becomes different. With that, comes risk."


So a former police officer comes out and says Police did well.

**** Me


Far too much bullshit being blown up peoples arses these days

Plenty of other Police forces around the world would not have ****ed around and taken 16 hours to deal with one bloke with a ****ing gun.

The only reason this shit is printed is to cover their arses from rightful criticism of their weak arse response



The Leftist apologist garbage is in overdrive seriously how hypocritical and deluded are these clowns and the scum in the media are making a mountain out of a molehill.


It was one ****ing deranged nut with a gun FFS. We have had worse incidents than that in this country yet these ****s carry on over nothing.

[Buddha]

So a former police officer comes out and says Police did well.

**** Me


Far too much bullshit being blown up peoples arses these days

Plenty of other Police forces around the world would not have ****ed around and taken 16 hours to deal with one bloke with a ****ing gun.

The only reason this shit is printed is to cover their arses from rightful criticism of their weak arse response



The Leftist apologist garbage is in overdrive seriously how hypocritical and deluded are these clowns and the scum in the media are making a mountain out of a molehill.


It was one ****ing deranged nut with a gun FFS. We have had worse incidents than that in this country yet these ****s carry on over nothing.
So you're saying risk the lives of innocent people for the sake of one undeserving one by going weapons free?

Do you not realise the potential that he may have been strapped with explosives? Then you lose a whole squad of TAC because they decided to go weapons free

Glad you're not in charge

[MFKS]

So you're saying risk the lives of innocent people for the sake of one undeserving one by going weapons free?

Do you not realise the potential that he may have been strapped with explosives? Then you lose a whole squad of TAC because they decided to go weapons free

Glad you're not in charge

Where the **** did I say anything about going in without guns??

I think you will find I am big on the use of guns on this nut and not ****ing around like they have.

Ohh he may have been strapped with explosives?? FMD

I take it you think the Police then should not arrest anyone for breaking the law just on the off chance they are strapped with explosives.


WH&S Shit gone mad. As I said **** the police send the army in. Whether he was carrying explosives would not have fazed them unlike the pussies in the Police dept.

[plague]

Errrrrrrr Member, have you read any of the 16,000 articles explaining how they physically couldn't take the bloke out?

[Grimario]

Member, you do realise weapons free doesn't mean without weapons... Right? It means they are free to fire their weapons.

[MFKS]

Errrrrrrr Member, have you read any of the 16,000 articles explaining how they physically couldn't take the bloke out?

I have read one and discounted it as complete bullshit covering their arses :grin: (Reminds me a lot of our club actually :whistling: )

[Buddha]

I can assure you the army take the preservation of innocent lives into consideration before acting.

And yes they would take into consideration Explosive devices

I repeat, this isn't the movies

These are real lives

And you have me wrong, they should deal with scum like this in a matter fitting, but that includes preserving the innocent lives that were in clear and present danger.

[q-money]

MFKS's SAS idea has merit though, put these blokes up against the big boys and i doubt you'll get a run of blokes that would want to try it on after an initial flurry of suicidial idiots

[plague]

I have read one and discounted it as complete bullshit covering their arses

Wot?
So the fact that they knew that a snipers shot from that distance wouldn't have stayed true once it hit the glass because the glass installed on buildings in that street need to be a certain thickness (to prevent vandals smashing them). So the fact they COULDNT shoot him in no way sways your opinion.

Ok.

Cool.

[plague]

I'm shocked the Member has yet to critisise the hostages who ran out once the shooting started instead of helping old mate who was wrestling with the lunatic.

"DERP DERP DERP PLASTIC HOSTAGES"

[plague]

Also if you need any further proof that there are still a lot of nutjobs out there, check the replies in the Twitter feed of any one of the Greens MP's.

Holy moly.

[MFKS]

Also if you need any further proof that there are still a lot of nutjobs out there, check the replies in the Twitter feed of any one of the Greens MP's.

Holy moly.

You should also check the op of the twitter feed of greens for nutjob opinions.

They give as good as they get

[The Dunster]

The Greens follow the same neo-liberal right-wing ideology as the ALP and the Coalition.

The similarities of these three parties are far greater than their differences.

[MFKS]

The greens are right wing ideolgists??

Like **** they are. Couldn't be further from the mark

[plague]

The Greens follow the same neo-liberal right-wing ideology as the ALP and the Coalition.

The similarities of these three parties are far greater than their differences.

I think all political ideology goes like this:
Person 1 says something.
Person 2 then disagrees louderer.
Person 3 says something dumbererer and louderer.

Then they all go to lunch together.

[plague]

To be fair I think Dunster hates all of them and thinks they shouldn't be trusted.

He's probs not far from the truth to be honest.

[MFKS]

To be fair I think Dunster hates all of them and thinks they shouldn't be trusted.

He's probs not far from the truth to be honest.

All politicians should not be trusted except for that Bob Katter bloke who is a bona fide ledge. The rest are just lying crooks.

The greens though are just full of bat shit crazy fruit cakes who let any uni drop out smart arse who thinks they know everything but have no idea on the world in which they actually live because they live in an inner city bubble and hang out with other fruit cakes who also agree with their bat shit crazy ideas into their midst.

What baffles me is who are the cunce who actually vote for them.

[q-money]

do you want to know why the people of sydney vote clover moore back in every year membah (i know she is not a green but she has got to be on the spectrum for you)

because she is a brutally effective mayor who serves her constituents brilliantly and listens to what they want and provides it to them

the inner city bubble is ****ing magic mate, you should come and try it

[plague]

the inner city bubble is ****ing magic mate, you should come and try it

What sort of interstellar travelling machine is capable of transporting the good Member from his own little universe into this bubble you speak of?

Oh, and shotgun.

[q-money]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-MosmUseSY

the member arriving in sydney

[plague]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-MosmUseSY

the member arriving in sydney

That Afro!!!!!!!

[q-money]

actually it's factually incorrect there are no black people in the sydney CBD

[The Dunster]

The greens are right wing ideolgists??

Like **** they are. Couldn't be further from the mark

The majority of Greens believe in Ricardian Equivalence and if that's not right wing ideology then I'll be ****ed if I know what is.

[hawk]

Hypothetical conundrum:

disaster etiquette
8o odd yr old is among some hostages in an apparent 1 off seige (happens daily in many other countries).

Being the elder should he take responsibility of taking on gunman while the younguns flee OR every man, woman, child for themselves?

[plague]

Hypothetical conundrum:

disaster etiquette
8o odd yr old is among some hostages in an apparent 1 off seige (happens daily in many other countries).

Being the elder should he take responsibility of taking on gunman while the younguns flee OR every man, woman, child for themselves?

If he's anything like my grandpappy was he'd just want to listen to the races and then talk so much the captors would neck themselves.
Old people are the worst.

[hawk]

If he's anything like my grandpappy was he'd just want to listen to the races and then talk so much the captors would neck themselves.
Old people are the worst.

fkn lulz

[MFKS]

THE giant mound of flowers in Martin Place said it all. The evil of the Lindt cafe siege gently *expunged by the love of thousands of strangers who came on Tuesday to pay their respects to the dead and express sorrow for the survivors.

Love wiping away hate, as tears flowed for the two dead hostages, hero cafe manager Tori Johnson, 34, and barrister Katrina Dawson, 38, and three small children whose mother will never come home.

“This is who we are,” Premier Mike Baird tweeted after he laid down his floral tribute.

Yes, this is who we are, Sydney. Muslim, Jewish, Christian, agnostic, drawn from every culture and race, united through the horror of December 15, the very model of a strong, harmonious society.

We are not a collection of bigots and Islamophobes, needing moral guidance from more enlightened leftists.

That Sydney is the gargoyle creation of the fevered leftist imagination, creating division where there is none.

Thus it was that on Monday, while real people were suffering at the hands of an Islamic State-inspired terrorist in Martin Place, hashtag activists sprang to the defence of theoretical victims of an Islamophobia that wasn’t occurring.

“I’ll ride with you” was their catchphrase, or “#illridewithyou” in social media’s *grammatical sludge.
The idea was that Muslims could not ride safely on public transport in Sydney during the siege because bigots would attack them, so good-hearted strangers had to “ride” with them, metaphorically, anyway.

It was a frivolous diversion from the real victims inside the Lindt cafe. The irony is the silly fad was started 1000km away, in Brisbane, by a Greens candidate who fantasised the whole thing. Rachael Jacobs was on a train in Brisbane on Monday reading about the unfolding siege on her phone when she noticed a woman fiddling with her headscarf at the other end of the carriage. “Tears sprang to my eyes and I was struck by feelings of anger, sadness and bitterness,” she wrote in Fairfax media yesterday.

But Jacobs’ tears were for the “victims of the siege who were not in the cafe,” she wrote.

“Victims” like the woman at the other end of the carriage who had taken off her scarf — for what reason Jacobs never bothered to find out.

She was too busy turning her imagined brush with *Islamophobia into a narrative which soon was trending in tens of thousands of tweets around the world.

“She might not even be Muslim or she could have just been warm” Jacobs later admitted.

“Our near silent encounter was over in a moment.”

The meaningless, narcissistic, one-sided nature of this “near silent encounter” perfectly symbolises the leftist *approach to Islamist terrorism.

Denial, deflection, projection. They see themselves as morally superior to the rest of Australia, which they imagine as a sea of ignorant rednecks. In their eyes the threat is not terrorism but Islamophobia. “Actually, everyone is a victim,” Curtin University counterterrorism lecturer Anne Aly shouted at me on Channel 9’s Today show yesterday when I pointed out that the real victims were the 17 hostages.

Yet for all the screeching, there are precious few instances where Muslims have been victimised in Sydney, unless you count anonymous trolls on social media.

Remember when the *Macquarie University Muslim Students *Association went out on the streets with a video camera and actors posing as bigots harassing Muslims?

In every single case *passers-by intervened to defend the “victim”.

But that display of Australian good character and *common sense was ignored by leftist troublemakers.

They prefer to downplay the terrorist threat and excuse the perpetrators. In their view the self-styled Iranian-born sheik and alleged rapist Man Haron Monis was a humanitarian, motivated by concern for children dying in the Middle East. (Or, a “peace activist”, as his lawyers describe him when he was charged with sending vile letters to the families of dead Aussie soldiers).

They accuse those who are trying to keep us safe from terrorism of Islamophobic scaremongering. Thus NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione was guilty of “overreach” in the Operation Appleby raids in Western Sydney in September to foil an IS-inspired plot to kidnap and execute a hostage in Martin Place. Doesn’t look so fanciful now, does it.

On Monday the Enlightened nitpicked about whether the flag Monis forced his hostages to hold up was an IS flag or just a generic flag used by the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

They tried to pretend Monis wasn’t a terrorist, even though he was the classic lone wolf who so concerns our security forces, low-tech, high impact, near impossible to detect.

They tried to distance him from IS, though his demands, issued via hostages to media outlets, were all about the death cult — he wanted an IS flag delivered to the cafe and he wanted it known that Australia was under attack from IS.

Some even used the horror that emptied the streets of *Sydney as a Green teaching moment with leftist journalism academic Wendy Bacon tweeting during the siege: “Clearing of cars in CBD gives you idea of how pleasant *carless city might be (despite context).” Good grief.

You know what the context is? We are the most harmonious immigrant nation on Earth and the constant cry of Islamophobia is a despicable slander against our good nature.

Lawyers will talk till they’re blue in the face trying to defend the decision to allow violent Islamist nut job Man Haron Monis out on bail.

Whether it’s the new bail laws or the old bail laws, judges and magistrates can and do exercise their own discretion when it comes to the low-lifes who frequent their docks. Monis’ violent criminal history, and obsessive zealotry ought to have shown that he is exactly the sort of person who should be refused bail.

Embraced by Australia as a refugee from his native Iran in 2001, Monis repaid our kindness by harassing the families of soldiers who had died in Afghanistan.

This was his “jihad” he said, as his lawyers called him a “peace activist”.

In an insult to our dead Diggers he was sentenced to a paltry 300 hours of community service. Then he was charged with being an accessory before and after the fact to the brutal stabbing murder of his ex-wife, and released on bail last year.

And then this year he was charged with 40 counts of sexual assault — and released on bail again.

This was not a man who deserved the benefit of the doubt. Reporting at a police station once a day wasn’t going to protect society from a dangerous Islamist ideologue whose life was spiralling out of control.

How can we expect counterterrorism agencies to keep us safe from suspects who haven’t yet committed a crime when our courts won’t even deal properly with the evidence of those who have.

New tougher bail laws are due next year but former director of public prosecutions Nicholas Cowdery has told the ABC they won’t make any difference.

He’s right. The real problem is not the laws but the judicial officers who refuse to enforce them.




Bang On the Money.

Shes usually so far wrong it ain't funny but this time she hits the nail


The leftist propaganda machine can **** off and stop ****ing our country up.

Dumb ****s would be the first to go anyway if the extremists took over anyway

[snake]

mfks - did you get a text msg about cronulla back in the day bra? i didn't, but a few of my friends did

[MFKS]

mfks - did you get a text msg about cronulla back in the day bra? i didn't, but a few of my friends did

Nah Brah I have no friends :woo:

[MFKS]

The majority of Greens believe in Ricardian Equivalence and if that's not right wing ideology then I'll be ****ed if I know what is.

The majority of greens are just crack pots to start with.

Their ideaology springs from any direction their crack pot ideas come from but mainly comes from the left with what "they think" are progressive ideas which most of the time have no substance and appeal to the people bar small groups in the minority in society

[q-money]

takes a nut to know a nut

[The Dunster]

The majority of greens are just crack pots to start with.

Their ideaology springs from any direction their crack pot ideas come from but mainly comes from the left with what "they think" are progressive ideas which most of the time have no substance and appeal to the people bar small groups in the minority in society

So what you are saying is that ones ideological position has no relevance to where anyone is positioned within the political spectrum ?

If that's the case then why do you even refer to anyone as being from the left or the right ?

With respect to Greens being crackpots I'm not going to disagree. However, I wouldn't say they hold a monopoly on being the nutters of the political system either.

[plague]

mfks - did you get a text msg about cronulla back in the day bra? i didn't, but a few of my friends did

The Member doesn't do riots.
Too many plastic thugs just turning up on the day.
WHERE WERE THEY WENT WE WANTED OUT OF 'NAM!!!!!!!!

[Skirt Boy]

The leftist propaganda machine can **** off and stop ****ing our country up.


Ok. Fair enough. Lets see how you will fair without.


medicare
social security
annual leave
sick leave
long service leave
minimum wage
super annuation
40 hour working week
penalty rates
Worker Compensation
that little thing called democracy
free or cheap education
subsidised public transport
subsidised public housing for the poor
collective agreements

[The Dunster]

The ALP would get rid of it all soon enough as well. Keating and Hawk did more damage to the union movement than Fraser, Howard, and Abbott combined.
The wages accord years merely lowered real wages and shifted income from workers to the capitalist owners because the capitalist put any productivity gains in their own pockets rather than passed them on to the workers.
Which I might add the capitalist owners had every right to do given they were operating within the law.
Democracy simply does not exist when all major parties are controlled by Oligarchs from the banking/Finance, Pharmaceutical, Insurance, mining, and media sectors... to name a few.

[plague]

Keating and Hawk did more damage to the union movement than Fraser, Howard, and Abbott combined.


Legit. Dunster on the money again.
Although to be fair in relation to tariff reductions etc the ALP had full support from the Libs, they thought it was ****ing Christmas.

[MFKS]

Ok. Fair enough. Lets see how you will fair without.


medicare
social security
annual leave
sick leave
long service leave
minimum wage
super annuation
40 hour working week
penalty rates
Worker Compensation
that little thing called democracy
free or cheap education
subsidised public transport
subsidised public housing for the poor
collective agreements



When have the left been worried about these things recently??

They are more interested in the big issues of multi coloured pedestrian crossings, letting Adam and Steve get married, harassing foreigners for fishing for whales in the Southern Ocean and any other useless shit that catches their fancy

[plague]

Nothin wrong with Adam and Steve being happy tho.
Leave it out Member.

[MFKS]

Nothin wrong with Adam and Steve being happy tho.
Leave it out Member.

Couldn't give a **** if Adam and Steve are happy. The biggest hurdle with gay marriage is religion. It clearly states in every religion that Adam and Steve is not on.

The lefty ****s are quite happy to push this agenda to normalise their sin despite the religious lots beliefs on the subject.

Same hypocrites though will not push at Islam at all for their oppression of females despite feminist issues and equality being a big thing for lefties.


Lefties happy to hammer the Christians and their beliefs but will not touch Islam for fear of offending